Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

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Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

wolle68
Dear all,

As already mentioned, another ripple effect of my first proposal has
materialised, the need to be able to properly tag chapels of rest as
well.

Therefore please comment on the following proposal:

Chapel of rest: a room or building where families and friends can come
and view someone who has died before their funeral

Proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest
Discussion page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest

Thanks!

Vollis


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Peter Elderson
I have heard mourning chapel, mourning room, funeral chapel, funeral room. Chapel of rest does not seem right to me, though I understand how the funeral business would like that term better. 

But I'm not a native speaker. PCMIIW.

Peter Elderson


Op ma 21 sep. 2020 om 21:14 schreef <[hidden email]>:
Dear all,

As already mentioned, another ripple effect of my first proposal has
materialised, the need to be able to properly tag chapels of rest as
well.

Therefore please comment on the following proposal:

Chapel of rest: a room or building where families and friends can come
and view someone who has died before their funeral

Proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest
Discussion page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest

Thanks!

Vollis


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Janko Mihelić
On Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 22:16 Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have heard mourning chapel, mourning room, funeral chapel, funeral room. Chapel of rest does not seem right to me, though I understand how the funeral business would like that term better. 

But I'm not a native speaker. PCMIIW.

I tried to google images of all these terms. They all find the right thing, although IMHO images of chapel of rest and mourning room are most concentrated and on the target. 

But I'm also not a native speaker.

Janko

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Paul Allen
On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 at 08:13, Janko Mihelić <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 22:16 Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have heard mourning chapel, mourning room, funeral chapel, funeral room. Chapel of rest does not seem right to me, though I understand how the funeral business would like that term better. 

But I'm not a native speaker. PCMIIW.

I tried to google images of all these terms. They all find the right thing, although IMHO images of chapel of rest and mourning room are most concentrated and on the target. 

But I'm also not a native speaker.

I am a native speaker but don't have any recent experience of attending
a funeral.  However, the term currently preferred by funeral directors is
"chapel of rest."  See

That preference might change in the future, just as funeral directors is
a modern term for what used to be known as undertakers, but that is a
risk we have to live with.  It is currently a term or art and the way most
funeral directors in the UK describe their "Have a look at the corpse" room.
It is therefore the term most likely to be recognised by native speakers.

--
Paul


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Clifford Snow


On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 5:42 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am a native speaker but don't have any recent experience of attending
a funeral.  However, the term currently preferred by funeral directors is
"chapel of rest."  See

That preference might change in the future, just as funeral directors is
a modern term for what used to be known as undertakers, but that is a
risk we have to live with.  It is currently a term or art and the way most
funeral directors in the UK describe their "Have a look at the corpse" room.
It is therefore the term most likely to be recognised by native speakers.

I just happened to be talking to a funeral owner yesterday. To be clear he is located in the US. I asked him the question - what do they call themselves. He said funeral home or some might use the term mortuary. He felt that mortuary is a more dated home. He did not offer up "chapel of rest."

"Chapel of Rest" sounds to me more like a marketing term not something we should be using in OSM.

Best,
Clifford
--
@osm_washington
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 24. Sep 2020, at 16:40, Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I just happened to be talking to a funeral owner yesterday. To be clear he is located in the US


then it is not so relevant for our discussion, because the standard is British English. Maybe it could make sense to provide an English(US) translation for editor presets and the like?

Cheers Martin
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Michael Patrick
In reply to this post by wolle68
One could always refer to the industry codes and subcodes that define product or service, for whatever jurisdiction. Along with industry trade publications - 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be a dated UK specific term ( similar to  the US term 'undertaker') , whereas viewing / visitation would be perfectly understood in the UK and pretty much translate to other languages as well.

The euphemistic 'Chapel of Rest' is more generically known as 'Viewing / Visitation Service', most commonly a room(s) where folks can pay their respects outside the ceremony itself,minimally with a guest registry, sometimes with scheduled hours, etc.

The 'Viewing Service' ( similar to other services, like the florists ) can range from none, once it was basically a small rooms the size of a large closet off a hallway, all the way up to full catered banquet facility for some cultures ( I once went to one in Detroit, where the open casket and reception line was right there with tables of people eating brunch ('wake')).

Michael Patrick


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Paul Allen
On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 at 23:51, Michael Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

The euphemistic 'Chapel of Rest' is more generically known as 'Viewing / Visitation Service', most commonly a room(s) where folks can pay their respects outside the ceremony itself,minimally with a guest registry, sometimes with scheduled hours, etc.

Problem 1.  "Viewing Service" is the name of a process, not the name
of the building or room it takes place in.  "Turn left after the Viewing Service"
makes no sense, any more than "Turn right after the prayer" as an
alternative to "Turn right after the church."

Problem 2.  "Viewing service" implies some sort of formalized event,
probably religious with a speaker delivering a eulogy.  A Chapel of
Rest is for looking at a dead body, with no formal ceremony.  Possibly
in complete silence.  Possible with only one live person in the room.
Contrast this with a religious service, which has prayers, hymns,
a sermon, bouts of kneeling, etc.

Problem 3.  I've not encountered that term as a synonym for a chapel of
rest.  But I've not looked very hard.  Citation needed.

--
Paul


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Michael Patrick


sent from a phone

> On 25. Sep 2020, at 00:51, Michael Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ( I once went to one in Detroit, where the open casket and reception line was right there with tables of people eating brunch ('wake')).


so it could be “wake_room”?
Now this might sound a tad euphemistic as well, but search engines actually restitute pertinent results.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

wolle68
"Wake rooms" was at one time my favorite, but then I was told that some
people might associate "wake" with a particular denomination as well.

I'm not a native speaker either, so I can't judge.

Something with "viewing" might be nice as well; "funeral viewing room"
(between quotation marks) yields some interesting results on Google. A
bit long, but at this point, I'd take that as a minor incovenience.

Am 25.09.2020 15:09 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:

> sent from a phone
>
>> On 25. Sep 2020, at 00:51, Michael Patrick <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ( I once went to one in Detroit, where the open casket and reception
>> line was right there with tables of people eating brunch ('wake')).
>
>
> so it could be “wake_room”?
> Now this might sound a tad euphemistic as well, but search engines
> actually restitute pertinent results.
>
> Cheers Martin
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Peter Elderson
I would suggest respectorium, but I do not want to start a new hype in the funeral branch.

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 25 sep. 2020 om 17:10 heeft [hidden email] het volgende geschreven:
>
> "Wake rooms" was at one time my favorite, but then I was told that some people might associate "wake" with a particular denomination as well.
>
> I'm not a native speaker either, so I can't judge.
>
> Something with "viewing" might be nice as well; "funeral viewing room" (between quotation marks) yields some interesting results on Google. A bit long, but at this point, I'd take that as a minor incovenience.
>
> Am 25.09.2020 15:09 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>> sent from a phone
>>>> On 25. Sep 2020, at 00:51, Michael Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> ( I once went to one in Detroit, where the open casket and reception line was right there with tables of people eating brunch ('wake')).
>> so it could be “wake_room”?
>> Now this might sound a tad euphemistic as well, but search engines
>> actually restitute pertinent results.
>> Cheers Martin
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
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>
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Michael Patrick
In reply to this post by wolle68

>> From: Paul Allen <[hidden email]>
>> The euphemistic 'Chapel of Rest' is more generically known as 'Viewing /
> >Visitation Service', most commonly a room(s) where folks can pay their
> >respects outside the ceremony itself,minimally with a guest registry,
>> sometimes with scheduled hours, etc.


> Problem 1.  "Viewing Service" is the name of a process, not the name
> of the building or room it takes place in.  "Turn left after the Viewing
> Service" > makes no sense, any more than "Turn right after the prayer" as an alternative to "Turn right after the church."
 
Mmmm .... I agree, that's my point. 'Chapel of Rest' isn't a place, at best it
sometimes might be a dedicated room in a funeral establishment. Apparently,
it is not infrequently the showroom for caskets if a larger attendance needs to
be accommodated.

> Problem 2.  "Viewing service" implies some sort of formalized event,
> probably religious with a speaker delivering a eulogy.  A Chapel of
> Rest is for looking at a dead body, with no formal ceremony.  Possibly
> in complete silence.  Possible with only one live person in the room.
> Contrast this with a religious service, which has prayers, hymns,
> a sermon, bouts of kneeling, etc.

Connotation of 'service' as in 'floral service', embalming service', 'cremation service' or otherwise business task / activity like 'automotive repair service', rather than the religious service denotation like a mass.

   Visitation/viewing — staff and facilities __________
   Funeral or memorial service — staff and facilities __________
   Graveside service, including staff and equipment __________
UK funeral industry shows both 'Chapel of Rest', or that term with visitation / viewing, some just have 'venue rental'. CoR is fairly typical. 

> Problem 3.  I've not encountered that term as a synonym for a chapel of
> rest.  But I've not looked very hard.  Citation needed.
... and hundreds more. Canada seems to be similar to the US.

 زيارة مشاهدة الجنازة ( Arabic ) goes to 'Funeral watch visit', i.e. it survives round trips through google Translate.

'Chapel of Rest' seems to be one of those terms like 'Take the goat to the butcher and have the butcher butcher the animal into cuts of meat.' The location takes on the name of an ephemeral activity that occurs in it, or the entity temporarily occupying it.

Michael Patrick



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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Paul Allen
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 at 10:02, Michael Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> From: Paul Allen <[hidden email]>

> Problem 1.  "Viewing Service" is the name of a process, not the name
> of the building or room it takes place in.  "Turn left after the Viewing
> Service" > makes no sense, any more than "Turn right after the prayer" as an alternative to "Turn right after the church."
 
Mmmm .... I agree, that's my point. 'Chapel of Rest' isn't a place, at best it
sometimes might be a dedicated room in a funeral establishment. Apparently,
it is not infrequently the showroom for caskets if a larger attendance needs to
be accommodated.

It may be as you state it in some cases.  It is not true of all.  Here's
one where the chapel of rest is a building solely for that purpose:
That does not serve any other purpose.  It is not his offices or
showroom.  I know of another one like that a few miles from it.

Also, a chapel, even in the religious sense, is not necessarily a
separate building.  It originally referred to a small room within
a church with its own altar, or a room with an alta in a
non-religious building.

In any case, the proposer seems to feel that chapel of rest
should be used only for dedicated buildings and a different
tag should be added to indicate a funeral director's with a
viewing room.


> Problem 2.  "Viewing service" implies some sort of formalized event,
> probably religious with a speaker delivering a eulogy.  A Chapel of
> Rest is for looking at a dead body, with no formal ceremony.  Possibly
> in complete silence.  Possible with only one live person in the room.
> Contrast this with a religious service, which has prayers, hymns,
> a sermon, bouts of kneeling, etc.

Connotation of 'service' as in 'floral service', embalming service', 'cremation service' or otherwise business task / activity like 'automotive repair service', rather than the religious service denotation like a mass.

I wouldn't expect a religious service at a florist or a car mechanic.  When it comes
to funerals, however...

   Visitation/viewing — staff and facilities __________
   Funeral or memorial service — staff and facilities __________
   Graveside service, including staff and equipment __________

That's nice.  But it's not British English.  You can, however, use it
to argue that editor translations for US English should use visitation
for the preset name.

UK funeral industry shows both 'Chapel of Rest', or that term with visitation / viewing, some just have 'venue rental'. CoR is fairly typical. 

Precisely.  CoR seems to be the commonest term for it.  And less
ambiguous than "visitation" (people visit patients in hospitals) or
"viewing" (people view paintings in art galleries).

> Problem 3.  I've not encountered that term as a synonym for a chapel of
> rest.  But I've not looked very hard.  Citation needed.

The first two are in the US.  The third gives me a "problem loading page"
error.

... and hundreds more. Canada seems to be similar to the US.

None of which are renowned for using British English.  Again, this is
for editor preset translations.

 زيارة مشاهدة الجنازة ( Arabic ) goes to 'Funeral watch visit', i.e. it survives round trips through google Translate.

Not pertinent.  The general policy is tags use British English.  There is no
requirement that they survive round trips through google translate.

--
Paul


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

wolle68
"In any case, the proposer seems to feel that chapel of rest
should be used only for dedicated buildings and a different
tag should be added to indicate a funeral director's with a
viewing room."
The proposer feels that a subtag should be used for a funeral director's
with a viewing room. But the proposer's preference goes to using the
same term for the amenity tag and for the subtag (examples given in the
proposal).

At the same time, may I ask for comments on "funeral viewing rooms"?
Apart from its length, it only seems to have advantages.

Am 27.09.2020 13:55 schrieb Paul Allen:

> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 at 10:02, Michael Patrick <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>>>> From: Paul Allen <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>> Problem 1. "Viewing Service" is the name of a process, not the
>>> name
>>>> of the building or room it takes place in. "Turn left after
>>> the Viewing
>>>> Service" > makes no sense, any more than "Turn right after the
>>> prayer" as an alternative to "Turn right after the church."
>>
>> Mmmm .... I agree, that's my point. 'Chapel of Rest' isn't a place,
>> at best it
>>
>> sometimes might be a dedicated room in a funeral establishment.
>> Apparently,
>> it is not infrequently the showroom for caskets if a larger
>> attendance needs to
>> be accommodated.
>
> It may be as you state it in some cases.  It is not true of all.
> Here's
>  one where the chapel of rest is a building solely for that purpose:
> https://www.colinphillipsfunerals.com/our-services/private-chapel/ [6]
> That does not serve any other purpose.  It is not his offices or
> showroom.  I know of another one like that a few miles from it.
>
> Also, a chapel, even in the religious sense, is not necessarily a
>  separate building.  It originally referred to a small room within
> a church with its own altar, or a room with an alta in a
> non-religious building.
>
> In any case, the proposer seems to feel that chapel of rest
> should be used only for dedicated buildings and a different
> tag should be added to indicate a funeral director's with a
> viewing room.
>
>>>> Problem 2. "Viewing service" implies some sort of formalized
>>> event,
>>>> probably religious with a speaker delivering a eulogy. A
>>> Chapel of
>>>> Rest is for looking at a dead body, with no formal ceremony.
>>> Possibly
>>>> in complete silence. Possible with only one live person in the
>>> room.
>>>> Contrast this with a religious service, which has prayers,
>>> hymns,
>>>> a sermon, bouts of kneeling, etc.
>>
>> Connotation of 'service' as in 'floral service', embalming service',
>> 'cremation service' or otherwise business task / activity like
>> 'automotive repair service', rather than the religious service
>> denotation like a mass.
>
> I wouldn't expect a religious service at a florist or a car mechanic.
> When it comes
> to funerals, however...
>
>> From the US Federal Trade Checklist at
>>
> https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0301-funeral-costs-and-pricing-checklist
>> [1]
>> Visitation/viewing — staff and facilities __________
>> Funeral or memorial service — staff and facilities __________
>> Graveside service, including staff and equipment __________
>
> That's nice.  But it's not British English.  You can, however, use it
> to argue that editor translations for US English should use visitation
> for the preset name.
>
>> UK funeral industry shows both 'Chapel of Rest', or that term with
>> visitation / viewing, some just have 'venue rental'. CoR is fairly
>> typical.
>
> Precisely.  CoR seems to be the commonest term for it.  And less
> ambiguous than "visitation" (people visit patients in hospitals) or
> "viewing" (people view paintings in art galleries).
>
>>>> Problem 3. I've not encountered that term as a synonym for a
>>> chapel of
>>>> rest. But I've not looked very hard. Citation needed.
>>
>> https://funeralresources.com/resources/viewing-and-visitation-costs/
>> [2]
>> https://funerals.org/?consumers=read-funeral-home-price-list/ [3]
>> https://www.thefuneralsite.com/ResourceCenters/Costs/How_much.html
>> [4]
>
> The first two are in the US.  The third gives me a "problem loading
> page"
> error.
>
>> ... and hundreds more. Canada seems to be similar to the US.
>
> None of which are renowned for using British English.  Again, this is
> for editor preset translations.
>
>> Viewing / Visitation seem to translate well
>>
> https://www.floridafuneralhome.com/Content/Media/FloridaFuneralHomeAndCrematory/Spa%20-%20Crem%20w%20View%202018-07-01.pdf
>> [5]
>> زيارة مشاهدة الجنازة ( Arabic ) goes to 'Funeral
>> watch visit', i.e. it survives round trips through google Translate.
>
> Not pertinent.  The general policy is tags use British English.  There
> is no
> requirement that they survive round trips through google translate.
>
> --
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0301-funeral-costs-and-pricing-checklist
> [2]
> https://funeralresources.com/resources/viewing-and-visitation-costs/
> [3] https://funerals.org/?consumers=read-funeral-home-price-list/
> [4] https://www.thefuneralsite.com/ResourceCenters/Costs/How_much.html
> [5]
> https://www.floridafuneralhome.com/Content/Media/FloridaFuneralHomeAndCrematory/Spa%20-%20Crem%20w%20View%202018-07-01.pdf
> [6] https://www.colinphillipsfunerals.com/our-services/private-chapel/
>
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Peter Elderson
Funeral viewing room sounds like a room where you can view the funeral. I suspect modern ones have very large screens and nice sound effects.

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 27 sep. 2020 om 19:39 heeft [hidden email] het volgende geschreven:
>
> "In any case, the proposer seems to feel that chapel of rest
> should be used only for dedicated buildings and a different
> tag should be added to indicate a funeral director's with a
> viewing room."
> The proposer feels that a subtag should be used for a funeral director's with a viewing room. But the proposer's preference goes to using the same term for the amenity tag and for the subtag (examples given in the proposal).
>
> At the same time, may I ask for comments on "funeral viewing rooms"? Apart from its length, it only seems to have advantages.
>
> Am 27.09.2020 13:55 schrieb Paul Allen:
>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 at 10:02, Michael Patrick <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> From: Paul Allen <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Problem 1. "Viewing Service" is the name of a process, not the
>>>> name
>>>>> of the building or room it takes place in. "Turn left after
>>>> the Viewing
>>>>> Service" > makes no sense, any more than "Turn right after the
>>>> prayer" as an alternative to "Turn right after the church."
>>> Mmmm .... I agree, that's my point. 'Chapel of Rest' isn't a place,
>>> at best it
>>> sometimes might be a dedicated room in a funeral establishment.
>>> Apparently,
>>> it is not infrequently the showroom for caskets if a larger
>>> attendance needs to
>>> be accommodated.
>> It may be as you state it in some cases.  It is not true of all.
>> Here's
>> one where the chapel of rest is a building solely for that purpose:
>> https://www.colinphillipsfunerals.com/our-services/private-chapel/ [6]
>> That does not serve any other purpose.  It is not his offices or
>> showroom.  I know of another one like that a few miles from it.
>> Also, a chapel, even in the religious sense, is not necessarily a
>> separate building.  It originally referred to a small room within
>> a church with its own altar, or a room with an alta in a
>> non-religious building.
>> In any case, the proposer seems to feel that chapel of rest
>> should be used only for dedicated buildings and a different
>> tag should be added to indicate a funeral director's with a
>> viewing room.
>>>>> Problem 2. "Viewing service" implies some sort of formalized
>>>> event,
>>>>> probably religious with a speaker delivering a eulogy. A
>>>> Chapel of
>>>>> Rest is for looking at a dead body, with no formal ceremony.
>>>> Possibly
>>>>> in complete silence. Possible with only one live person in the
>>>> room.
>>>>> Contrast this with a religious service, which has prayers,
>>>> hymns,
>>>>> a sermon, bouts of kneeling, etc.
>>> Connotation of 'service' as in 'floral service', embalming service',
>>> 'cremation service' or otherwise business task / activity like
>>> 'automotive repair service', rather than the religious service
>>> denotation like a mass.
>> I wouldn't expect a religious service at a florist or a car mechanic.
>> When it comes
>> to funerals, however...
>>> From the US Federal Trade Checklist at
>> https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0301-funeral-costs-and-pricing-checklist
>>> [1]
>>> Visitation/viewing — staff and facilities __________
>>> Funeral or memorial service — staff and facilities __________
>>> Graveside service, including staff and equipment __________
>> That's nice.  But it's not British English.  You can, however, use it
>> to argue that editor translations for US English should use visitation
>> for the preset name.
>>> UK funeral industry shows both 'Chapel of Rest', or that term with
>>> visitation / viewing, some just have 'venue rental'. CoR is fairly
>>> typical.
>> Precisely.  CoR seems to be the commonest term for it.  And less
>> ambiguous than "visitation" (people visit patients in hospitals) or
>> "viewing" (people view paintings in art galleries).
>>>>> Problem 3. I've not encountered that term as a synonym for a
>>>> chapel of
>>>>> rest. But I've not looked very hard. Citation needed.
>>> https://funeralresources.com/resources/viewing-and-visitation-costs/
>>> [2]
>>> https://funerals.org/?consumers=read-funeral-home-price-list/ [3]
>>> https://www.thefuneralsite.com/ResourceCenters/Costs/How_much.html
>>> [4]
>> The first two are in the US.  The third gives me a "problem loading
>> page"
>> error.
>>> ... and hundreds more. Canada seems to be similar to the US.
>> None of which are renowned for using British English.  Again, this is
>> for editor preset translations.
>>> Viewing / Visitation seem to translate well
>> https://www.floridafuneralhome.com/Content/Media/FloridaFuneralHomeAndCrematory/Spa%20-%20Crem%20w%20View%202018-07-01.pdf
>>> [5]
>>> زيارة مشاهدة الجنازة ( Arabic ) goes to 'Funeral
>>> watch visit', i.e. it survives round trips through google Translate.
>> Not pertinent.  The general policy is tags use British English.  There
>> is no
>> requirement that they survive round trips through google translate.
>> --
>> Paul
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0301-funeral-costs-and-pricing-checklist
>> [2] https://funeralresources.com/resources/viewing-and-visitation-costs/
>> [3] https://funerals.org/?consumers=read-funeral-home-price-list/
>> [4] https://www.thefuneralsite.com/ResourceCenters/Costs/How_much.html
>> [5]
>> https://www.floridafuneralhome.com/Content/Media/FloridaFuneralHomeAndCrematory/Spa%20-%20Crem%20w%20View%202018-07-01.pdf
>> [6] https://www.colinphillipsfunerals.com/our-services/private-chapel/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Paul Allen
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 at 18:56, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Funeral viewing room sounds like a room where you can view the funeral. I suspect modern ones have very large screens and nice sound effects.

And perhaps even grandstands.

Funerals generally include the final disposition of the body.  Watching the
coffin being lowered into the grave.  Watching the coffin roll along the
conveyor belt to disappear behind a curtain (and maybe the sound of
the gas jets firing up).

So if it's a room at a cemetery from where you can watch the coffin being
lowered into the grave then maybe there is also a grandstand.

I'd say that "funeral viewing room" is a bad way of attempting to
describe a chapel of rest.  "Pre-funeral viewing room" would be
better, but is really clumsy.

--
Paul


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Michael Patrick
In reply to this post by wolle68

> Not pertinent.  The general policy is tags use British English. 
 
Tom McArthur in the Oxford Guide to World English, British English shares "all the ambiguities and tensions in the word 'British' and as a result can be used and interpreted in two ways, more broadly or more narrowly, within a range of blurring and ambiguity"
...  Leeds University stated:... that they were "very pleased"—and indeed, "well chuffed"—at receiving their generous grant. He could, of course, have been "bostin" if he had come from the Black Country, or if he was a Scouser he would have been well "made up" over so many spondoolicks, because as a Geordie might say, £460,000 is a "canny load of chink"

Perhaps you mean one of the many versions of 'Standard' English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_English ?

Despite the large difference in area and population, there is far more variation between UK Englishes than within the USA ( and probably Canada also ).

> There is no requirement that they survive round trips through google translate.

Nor is there any requirement to use any number of linguistic tools to determine
prevalence and alignment of meanings, but since OSM is an international project,
my practice is to make it as easy as possible for non-native English users.


 
>
> --
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0301-funeral-costs-and-pricing-checklist
> [2]
> https://funeralresources.com/resources/viewing-and-visitation-costs/
> [3] https://funerals.org/?consumers=read-funeral-home-price-list/
> [4] https://www.thefuneralsite.com/ResourceCenters/Costs/How_much.html
> [5]
> https://www.floridafuneralhome.com/Content/Media/FloridaFuneralHomeAndCrematory/Spa%20-%20Crem%20w%20View%202018-07-01.pdf
> [6] https://www.colinphillipsfunerals.com/our-services/private-chapel/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 10:38:21 -0700
From: Clifford Snow <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Cc: Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>, talk-us
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Large fire perimeter tagging?
Message-ID:
        <CADAoPLofgo6SwkiM3YYdgeJtw8JSkbfSdMMUgG=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:24 AM Clifford Snow <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 12:46 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> landuse=forest is used to tag tree covered area, not for how land is used
>>
>
> I don't believe everyone around here will agree with that interpretation.
> I live in an area with significant logging. Typically I will see logging
> trucks bringing in just cut timber to be milled  when I'm out for just a
> short drive. Timber production is a big industry in Alaska, British
> Columbia, Washington, Oregon, and California.
>

I did a check of Washington and saw that there are a number of
landuse=forest that should be natural=trees. I suspect that it's also
happening elsewhere.

>
>> It is also basically universally interpreted this way by various data
>> consumers.
>>
>
> That may be for cartographic interpretation. But researchers may have a
> different opinion. A researcher just interested in potential wildfire areas
> may not be interested in the difference, but someone looking at how much
> land is being used for forestry products may have a different opinion. Or
> in mountainous states where clear cutting often causes landslides. I know
> our state studies where it's dangerous to clear cut because the area is so
> steep.
>
> The wiki on landuse=forest does need some help. We shouldn't be offering a
> tag with such unclear use cases as landuse=forest currently is written.
>

I'm not sure there would be a consensus agreement to revise the wiki to
indicate landuse=forest should be used for timber production.  Thoughts?

>
>
> --
@osm_washington
www.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:55:25 +0200
From: Peter Elderson <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Funeral viewing room sounds like a room where you can view the funeral. I suspect modern ones have very large screens and nice sound effects.

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 27 sep. 2020 om 19:39 heeft [hidden email] het volgende geschreven:
>
> "In any case, the proposer seems to feel that chapel of rest
> should be used only for dedicated buildings and a different
> tag should be added to indicate a funeral director's with a
> viewing room."
> The proposer feels that a subtag should be used for a funeral director's with a viewing room. But the proposer's preference goes to using the same term for the amenity tag and for the subtag (examples given in the proposal).
>
> At the same time, may I ask for comments on "funeral viewing rooms"? Apart from its length, it only seems to have advantages.
>
> Am 27.09.2020 13:55 schrieb Paul Allen:
>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 at 10:02, Michael Patrick <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> From: Paul Allen <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Problem 1. "Viewing Service" is the name of a process, not the
>>>> name
>>>>> of the building or room it takes place in. "Turn left after
>>>> the Viewing
>>>>> Service" > makes no sense, any more than "Turn right after the
>>>> prayer" as an alternative to "Turn right after the church."
>>> Mmmm .... I agree, that's my point. 'Chapel of Rest' isn't a place,
>>> at best it
>>> sometimes might be a dedicated room in a funeral establishment.
>>> Apparently,
>>> it is not infrequently the showroom for caskets if a larger
>>> attendance needs to
>>> be accommodated.
>> It may be as you state it in some cases.  It is not true of all.
>> Here's
>> one where the chapel of rest is a building solely for that purpose:
>> https://www.colinphillipsfunerals.com/our-services/private-chapel/ [6]
>> That does not serve any other purpose.  It is not his offices or
>> showroom.  I know of another one like that a few miles from it.
>> Also, a chapel, even in the religious sense, is not necessarily a
>> separate building.  It originally referred to a small room within
>> a church with its own altar, or a room with an alta in a
>> non-religious building.
>> In any case, the proposer seems to feel that chapel of rest
>> should be used only for dedicated buildings and a different
>> tag should be added to indicate a funeral director's with a
>> viewing room.
>>>>> Problem 2. "Viewing service" implies some sort of formalized
>>>> event,
>>>>> probably religious with a speaker delivering a eulogy. A
>>>> Chapel of
>>>>> Rest is for looking at a dead body, with no formal ceremony.
>>>> Possibly
>>>>> in complete silence. Possible with only one live person in the
>>>> room.
>>>>> Contrast this with a religious service, which has prayers,
>>>> hymns,
>>>>> a sermon, bouts of kneeling, etc.
>>> Connotation of 'service' as in 'floral service', embalming service',
>>> 'cremation service' or otherwise business task / activity like
>>> 'automotive repair service', rather than the religious service
>>> denotation like a mass.
>> I wouldn't expect a religious service at a florist or a car mechanic.
>> When it comes
>> to funerals, however...
>>> From the US Federal Trade Checklist at
>> https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0301-funeral-costs-and-pricing-checklist
>>> [1]
>>> Visitation/viewing — staff and facilities __________
>>> Funeral or memorial service — staff and facilities __________
>>> Graveside service, including staff and equipment __________
>> That's nice.  But it's not British English.  You can, however, use it
>> to argue that editor translations for US English should use visitation
>> for the preset name.
>>> UK funeral industry shows both 'Chapel of Rest', or that term with
>>> visitation / viewing, some just have 'venue rental'. CoR is fairly
>>> typical.
>> Precisely.  CoR seems to be the commonest term for it.  And less
>> ambiguous than "visitation" (people visit patients in hospitals) or
>> "viewing" (people view paintings in art galleries).
>>>>> Problem 3. I've not encountered that term as a synonym for a
>>>> chapel of
>>>>> rest. But I've not looked very hard. Citation needed.
>>> https://funeralresources.com/resources/viewing-and-visitation-costs/
>>> [2]
>>> https://funerals.org/?consumers=read-funeral-home-price-list/ [3]
>>> https://www.thefuneralsite.com/ResourceCenters/Costs/How_much.html
>>> [4]
>> The first two are in the US.  The third gives me a "problem loading
>> page"
>> error.
>>> ... and hundreds more. Canada seems to be similar to the US.
>> None of which are renowned for using British English.  Again, this is
>> for editor preset translations.
>>> Viewing / Visitation seem to translate well
>> https://www.floridafuneralhome.com/Content/Media/FloridaFuneralHomeAndCrematory/Spa%20-%20Crem%20w%20View%202018-07-01.pdf
>>> [5]
>>> زيارة مشاهدة الجنازة ( Arabic ) goes to 'Funeral
>>> watch visit', i.e. it survives round trips through google Translate.
>> Not pertinent.  The general policy is tags use British English.  There
>> is no
>> requirement that they survive round trips through google translate.
>> --
>> Paul
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0301-funeral-costs-and-pricing-checklist
>> [2] https://funeralresources.com/resources/viewing-and-visitation-costs/
>> [3] https://funerals.org/?consumers=read-funeral-home-price-list/
>> [4] https://www.thefuneralsite.com/ResourceCenters/Costs/How_much.html
>> [5]
>> https://www.floridafuneralhome.com/Content/Media/FloridaFuneralHomeAndCrematory/Spa%20-%20Crem%20w%20View%202018-07-01.pdf
>> [6] https://www.colinphillipsfunerals.com/our-services/private-chapel/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:17:36 +0100
From: Paul Allen <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)
Message-ID:
        <CAPy1dOLMEaJ4LMvhFTH51Ax-5YWp5f=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 at 18:56, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Funeral viewing room sounds like a room where you can view the funeral. I
> suspect modern ones have very large screens and nice sound effects.
>

And perhaps even grandstands.

Funerals generally include the final disposition of the body.  Watching the
coffin being lowered into the grave.  Watching the coffin roll along the
conveyor belt to disappear behind a curtain (and maybe the sound of
the gas jets firing up).

So if it's a room at a cemetery from where you can watch the coffin being
lowered into the grave then maybe there is also a grandstand.

I'd say that "funeral viewing room" is a bad way of attempting to
describe a chapel of rest.  "Pre-funeral viewing room" would be
better, but is really clumsy.

--
Paul
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

sdoerr
In reply to this post by wolle68
On 27/09/2020 18:38, [hidden email] wrote:
> At the same time, may I ask for comments on "funeral viewing rooms"?
> Apart from its length, it only seems to have advantages.

I don't like it. To me it implies a room from which you can view a funeral.

--
Steve


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - (Chapel of rest)

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Michael Patrick
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 at 06:55, Michael Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not pertinent.  The general policy is tags use British English. 
 
Tom McArthur in the Oxford Guide to World English, British English shares "all the ambiguities and tensions in the word 'British' and as a result can be used and interpreted in two ways, more broadly or more narrowly, within a range of blurring and ambiguity"

You are now clutching at straws.

Perhaps you mean one of the many versions of 'Standard' English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_English ?

No, I mean the various wiki pages stating that OSM uses British English
where possible.  Only those clutching at straws would interpret that as
meaning non-dialectal British English.

Despite the large difference in area and population, there is far more variation between UK Englishes than within the USA ( and probably Canada also ).

And there are also commonalities within all the varieties of British English.
Commonalities in British English which differ from the varieties used
in other countries.  You've now clutched at an entire haystack.

Nor is there any requirement to use any number of linguistic tools to determine
prevalence and alignment of meanings, but since OSM is an international project,
my practice is to make it as easy as possible for non-native English users.

I'm impressed.  You've taken all those straws you clutched at, fashioned
a straw gun and shot yourself in the foot with it.

If we tag things using British English then non-native speakers need only
look up what the word(s) mean in British English.  If we tag things using
your scheme they must look up what the word(s) mean in all varieties
of English then try to ascertain which one was chosen based on
linguistic prevalence or some other unspecified criteria.  This,
according to you, will make it easier for them.

--
Paul


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