Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

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Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Tagging mailing list
Renewal of the natural=couloir tag : Proposed_features/couloir_2



Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

voschix
What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only the steepness?

Volker

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On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
Renewal of the natural=couloir tag : Proposed_features/couloir_2



Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Walker Bradley-2
A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not just a tight valley.  Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s a confined space often used for ascents or descents.

On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:


What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only the steepness?

Volker

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
Renewal of the natural=couloir tag : Proposed_features/couloir_2



Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Joseph Eisenberg
The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially natural=valley

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:
A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not just a tight valley.  Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s a confined space often used for ascents or descents.

On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:


What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only the steepness?

Volker

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
Renewal of the natural=couloir tag : Proposed_features/couloir_2



Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

voschix
From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when they are full with snow.

Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).
In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar to the French original:
" Ein Couloir (französisch für Korridor) ist eine von Felsen begrenzte und oft mit Schnee oder Eis gefüllte Rinne an einem Berghang oder in einer Bergwand.
Couloirs sind steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist dem Stein- oder Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)

The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not showing a French or German couloir.
In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.

With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.

What about "gully" instead.

BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially natural=valley

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:
A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not just a tight valley.  Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s a confined space often used for ascents or descents.

On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:


What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only the steepness?

Volker

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
Renewal of the natural=couloir tag : Proposed_features/couloir_2



Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Tagging mailing list
I've updated the first image for a more classical couloir, for better understanding. I, also, put more images from commons as example to better differentiate  a valley / gully / couloir.
I also changed the main definition with the wikipedia definition.

(BTW, the first image and the original denifition are from the first proposal, so I didn't look much into it, sorry)

You need to be aware that in French, words made for a specific thing can also be applicable for other things too.
An avalanche channel in French (at least in "mountain vocabulary") describe path that an avalanche can take, it is associated with couloir in French because avalanche are subject to start in couloirs because of their steepness. With use the term "couloir d'avalanche" to say that this couloir frequently start avalanches, this is why there are a lot of protection in them around ski resort.
It's used with the word "couloir" because this word in french describe everything that is long and narrow, like a corridor, etc..  A maritime corridor in french is not called a "couloir maritime" it's called a "corridor" literally, because England had a strong influence in the maritime world in history, like France might also had a strong influence in mountaineering in history.

> it seems that these couloirs are steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.

A couloir is a couloir no matter the elevation, type of surface or season. You can see a lot of example of couloir in winter because usually, they are more practicable and fun skiing than hiking.
The surface of a couloir can be rocks, grass mixed with rocks or a glacier can also go down a couloir like "Couloir Couturier" for example.

Look the Grand Couloir in winter and in summer, it is still a couloir no matter the season, in the summer there is no avalanches but rocks that fall down constantly.
FYI this couloir is more than 500 meters in length  and ~85 meters wide. That's quite bigger than a regular gully. It is also one of the deadliest because the route to climb the Mont-Blanc crosses it.

> With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in English

The thing is that the English word "couloir" describe exactly this topological features and nothing else compared to the French word that can be applicable to different situation.
It also might be rarely used because there are not a lot of people that climb these things, I'm sure that if you talk to English people that do a lot of mountaineering, they would exactly know what it is.

> What about "gully" instead.

I really doesn't whant to go in another description again, I made a section dedicated on the proposal article with images to visually describe the differences.
I understand that the word gully is applicable by it's general definition but this is a very precise topological features in alpine terrain. In those terrain we also have gullies but this word is not general too and describe very narrow cracks in cliffs as wide as one or two people, so this tag make the difference between what is clearly a couloir and what is cleary a gully.

It is important to make the difference because topological features are used a lot to orientate oneself in those terrain, it is even used by rescue team to find people and study the terrain for danger exposition.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:21 PM, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:

From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when they are full with snow.

Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).
In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar to the French original:
" Ein Couloir (französisch für Korridor) ist eine von Felsen begrenzte und oft mit Schnee oder Eis gefüllte Rinne an einem Berghang oder in einer Bergwand.
Couloirs sind steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist dem Stein- oder Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)

The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not showing a French or German couloir.
In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.

With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.

What about "gully" instead.

BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)


Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially natural=valley

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:
A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not just a tight valley.  Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s a confined space often used for ascents or descents.

On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:

What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only the steepness?

Volker


Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
Renewal of the natural=couloir tag : Proposed_features/couloir_2



Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Philip Barnes
On Thu, 2021-02-04 at 12:22 +0000, pierrick pratter via Tagging wrote:

>
>
> > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > English
>
> The thing is that the English word "couloir" describe exactly this
> topological features and nothing else compared to the French word
> that can be applicable to different situation.
> It also might be rarely used because there are not a lot of people
> that climb these things, I'm sure that if you talk to English people
> that do a lot of mountaineering, they would exactly know what it is.

Speaking as a Brit who climbs mountains sometimes, I fully support the
above. The term when I first saw the subject was obvious to me that it
is about tagging in the mountains.

English borrows many words from French in mountaineering and skiing.
For example Piste (the French word for a track). In English it refers
exclusively to a ski run.
>
> > What about "gully" instead.
>
Gully has too wide a meaning in English, and does not have the same
precision of meaning as Couloir. Gully is more to do with drainage.

Phil (trigpoint)



> I really doesn't whant to go in another description again, I made a
> section dedicated on the proposal article with images to visually
> describe the differences.
> I understand that the word gully is applicable by it's general
> definition but this is a very precise topological features in alpine
> terrain. In those terrain we also have gullies but this word is not
> general too and describe very narrow cracks in cliffs as wide as one
> or two people, so this tag make the difference between what is
> clearly a couloir and what is cleary a gully.
>
> It is important to make the difference because topological features
> are used a lot to orientate oneself in those terrain, it is even used
> by rescue team to find people and study the terrain for danger
> exposition.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>  On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:21 PM, Volker Schmidt <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>  
> > From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are
> > steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when
> > they are full with snow.
> >
> > Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic
> > feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).
> > In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar
> > to the French original:
> > " Ein Couloir (französisch für Korridor) ist eine von Felsen
> > begrenzte und oft mit Schnee oder Eis gefüllte Rinne an einem
> > Berghang oder in einer Bergwand.
> > Couloirs sind steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist
> > dem Stein- oder Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)
> >
> > The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not
> > showing a French or German couloir.
> > In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for
> > something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.
> >
> > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.
> >
> > What about "gully" instead.
> >
> > BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people
> > (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)
> >
> >
> > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is
> > > different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially
> > > natural=valley
> > >
> > > -- Joseph Eisenberg
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not
> > > > just a tight valley.  Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s
> > > > a confined space often used for ascents or descents.
> > > >
> > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only
> > > > > the steepness?
> > > > >
> > > > > Volker
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <
> > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > Renewal of the natural=couloir tag :
> > > > > > Proposed_features/couloir_2
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a
> > > > > > mountainous terrain
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >  Tagging mailing list
> > > > > >  [hidden email]
> > > > > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Tagging mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >  Tagging mailing list
> > > >  [hidden email]
> > > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >  Tagging mailing list
> > >  [hidden email]
> > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Kevin Broderick
Speaking as an American who wishes he got to spend more time in couloirs and less in front of the computer, I agree with Phil and Pierrick.

I'd also note that having couloirs specifically mapped could be enormously helpful for route-finding in ski mountaineering (not to mention SAR efforts if someone is reported injured at the bottom of "Hanging Couloir" or such). I doubt it would be likely to happen anytime soon in the areas I'm thinking about—most of them barely have the road network mapped—but if we got there, I can see a significant benefit.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 7:59 AM Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 2021-02-04 at 12:22 +0000, pierrick pratter via Tagging wrote:
>
>
> > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > English
>
> The thing is that the English word "couloir" describe exactly this
> topological features and nothing else compared to the French word
> that can be applicable to different situation.
> It also might be rarely used because there are not a lot of people
> that climb these things, I'm sure that if you talk to English people
> that do a lot of mountaineering, they would exactly know what it is.

Speaking as a Brit who climbs mountains sometimes, I fully support the
above. The term when I first saw the subject was obvious to me that it
is about tagging in the mountains.

English borrows many words from French in mountaineering and skiing.
For example Piste (the French word for a track). In English it refers
exclusively to a ski run.
>
> > What about "gully" instead.
>
Gully has too wide a meaning in English, and does not have the same
precision of meaning as Couloir. Gully is more to do with drainage.

Phil (trigpoint)



> I really doesn't whant to go in another description again, I made a
> section dedicated on the proposal article with images to visually
> describe the differences.
> I understand that the word gully is applicable by it's general
> definition but this is a very precise topological features in alpine
> terrain. In those terrain we also have gullies but this word is not
> general too and describe very narrow cracks in cliffs as wide as one
> or two people, so this tag make the difference between what is
> clearly a couloir and what is cleary a gully.
>
> It is important to make the difference because topological features
> are used a lot to orientate oneself in those terrain, it is even used
> by rescue team to find people and study the terrain for danger
> exposition.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>  On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:21 PM, Volker Schmidt <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>  
> > From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are
> > steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when
> > they are full with snow.
> >
> > Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic
> > feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).
> > In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar
> > to the French original:
> > " Ein Couloir (französisch für Korridor) ist eine von Felsen
> > begrenzte und oft mit Schnee oder Eis gefüllte Rinne an einem
> > Berghang oder in einer Bergwand.
> > Couloirs sind steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist
> > dem Stein- oder Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)
> >
> > The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not
> > showing a French or German couloir.
> > In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for
> > something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.
> >
> > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.
> >
> > What about "gully" instead.
> >
> > BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people
> > (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)
> >
> >
> > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is
> > > different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially
> > > natural=valley
> > >
> > > -- Joseph Eisenberg
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not
> > > > just a tight valley.  Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s
> > > > a confined space often used for ascents or descents.
> > > >
> > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only
> > > > > the steepness?
> > > > >
> > > > > Volker
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <
> > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > Renewal of the natural=couloir tag :
> > > > > > Proposed_features/couloir_2
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a
> > > > > > mountainous terrain
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >  Tagging mailing list
> > > > > >  [hidden email]
> > > > > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Tagging mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >  Tagging mailing list
> > > >  [hidden email]
> > > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >  Tagging mailing list
> > >  [hidden email]
> > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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--
Kevin Broderick

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Walker Bradley-2
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes
I concur with Phil et al. Couloir and other "French" terms are widely used in English for highly specific features in mountaineering and are often used for route finding.  Cirques, pistes, and couloirs are all perfect examples:

Here is a route description taken verbatim from 14ers.com(https://www.14ers.com/route.php?route=long5&peak=Longs+Peak):
From the hiking trail, it is about 1.6 miles of bushwhacking to reach timberline. Nearby is an unnamed lake, at 11,200 feet. From here, continue straight uphill into the basin ( 2).

Ahead, Keplinger's Couloir is readily visible as the westernmost (farthest left) couloir, splitting Longs' south face ( 3 and  4).

Climbing the couloir is straight-forward, and at its very steepest it may reach 45 degrees. The couloir stretches from 12,000 feet to 13,600 feet ( 5,  6,  7 and  8). Nearing the top, the climber will be immediately to the left of the Palisades and Southeast Longs ( 9 and  14).

At the top of the couloir, turn left (west), onto the ledge or snow-shelf. This section can range from a talus walk-up in summer to steep snow slopes exceeding 50 degrees in the winter ( 10 and  11). This ramp eventually leads to the Homestretch ( 12), where yellow and red bullseyes are painted on the rocks, for the final push to the summit ( 13 and  15).

Walker KB (WalkerB)

-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Barnes <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, 4 February, 2021 12:57
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

On Thu, 2021-02-04 at 12:22 +0000, pierrick pratter via Tagging wrote:

>
>
> > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > English
>
> The thing is that the English word "couloir" describe exactly this
> topological features and nothing else compared to the French word that
> can be applicable to different situation.
> It also might be rarely used because there are not a lot of people
> that climb these things, I'm sure that if you talk to English people
> that do a lot of mountaineering, they would exactly know what it is.

Speaking as a Brit who climbs mountains sometimes, I fully support the above. The term when I first saw the subject was obvious to me that it is about tagging in the mountains.

English borrows many words from French in mountaineering and skiing.
For example Piste (the French word for a track). In English it refers exclusively to a ski run.
>
> > What about "gully" instead.
>
Gully has too wide a meaning in English, and does not have the same precision of meaning as Couloir. Gully is more to do with drainage.

Phil (trigpoint)



> I really doesn't whant to go in another description again, I made a
> section dedicated on the proposal article with images to visually
> describe the differences.
> I understand that the word gully is applicable by it's general
> definition but this is a very precise topological features in alpine
> terrain. In those terrain we also have gullies but this word is not
> general too and describe very narrow cracks in cliffs as wide as one
> or two people, so this tag make the difference between what is clearly
> a couloir and what is cleary a gully.
>
> It is important to make the difference because topological features
> are used a lot to orientate oneself in those terrain, it is even used
> by rescue team to find people and study the terrain for danger
> exposition.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>  On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:21 PM, Volker Schmidt <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>  
> > From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are
> > steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when
> > they are full with snow.
> >
> > Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic
> > feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).
> > In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar
> > to the French original:
> > " Ein Couloir (französisch für Korridor) ist eine von Felsen
> > begrenzte und oft mit Schnee oder Eis gefüllte Rinne an einem
> > Berghang oder in einer Bergwand.
> > Couloirs sind steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist
> > dem Stein- oder Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)
> >
> > The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not showing
> > a French or German couloir.
> > In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for
> > something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.
> >
> > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.
> >
> > What about "gully" instead.
> >
> > BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people
> > (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)
> >
> >
> > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is
> > > different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially
> > > natural=valley
> > >
> > > -- Joseph Eisenberg
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not
> > > > just a tight valley.  Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s a
> > > > confined space often used for ascents or descents.
> > > >
> > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only the
> > > > > steepness?
> > > > >
> > > > > Volker
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <
> > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > Renewal of the natural=couloir tag :
> > > > > > Proposed_features/couloir_2
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a
> > > > > > mountainous terrain
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >  Tagging mailing list
> > > > > >  [hidden email]
> > > > > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Tagging mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >  Tagging mailing list
> > > >  [hidden email]
> > > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >  Tagging mailing list
> > >  [hidden email]
> > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Tod Fitch-2
In reply to this post by Kevin Broderick
As yet another American who in younger years did a little mountain climbing I want to reinforce Kevin’s reply.

Couloir is definitely used in climbing to describe a specific feature. And other words like gully do not accurately convey the same information.

--
Sent from my phone, please forgive my brevity.

On Thursday, Feb 04, 2021 at 6:32 AM, Kevin Broderick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Speaking as an American who wishes he got to spend more time in couloirs and less in front of the computer, I agree with Phil and Pierrick.

I'd also note that having couloirs specifically mapped could be enormously helpful for route-finding in ski mountaineering (not to mention SAR efforts if someone is reported injured at the bottom of "Hanging Couloir" or such). I doubt it would be likely to happen anytime soon in the areas I'm thinking about—most of them barely have the road network mapped—but if we got there, I can see a significant benefit.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 7:59 AM Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 2021-02-04 at 12:22 +0000, pierrick pratter via Tagging wrote:
>
>
> > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > English
>
> The thing is that the English word "couloir" describe exactly this
> topological features and nothing else compared to the French word
> that can be applicable to different situation.
> It also might be rarely used because there are not a lot of people
> that climb these things, I'm sure that if you talk to English people
> that do a lot of mountaineering, they would exactly know what it is.

Speaking as a Brit who climbs mountains sometimes, I fully support the
above. The term when I first saw the subject was obvious to me that it
is about tagging in the mountains.

English borrows many words from French in mountaineering and skiing.
For example Piste (the French word for a track). In English it refers
exclusively to a ski run.
>
> > What about "gully" instead.
>
Gully has too wide a meaning in English, and does not have the same
precision of meaning as Couloir. Gully is more to do with drainage.

Phil (trigpoint)



> I really doesn't whant to go in another description again, I made a
> section dedicated on the proposal article with images to visually
> describe the differences.
> I understand that the word gully is applicable by it's general
> definition but this is a very precise topological features in alpine
> terrain. In those terrain we also have gullies but this word is not
> general too and describe very narrow cracks in cliffs as wide as one
> or two people, so this tag make the difference between what is
> clearly a couloir and what is cleary a gully.
>
> It is important to make the difference because topological features
> are used a lot to orientate oneself in those terrain, it is even used
> by rescue team to find people and study the terrain for danger
> exposition.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>  On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:21 PM, Volker Schmidt <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>  
> > From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are
> > steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when
> > they are full with snow.
> >
> > Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic
> > feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).
> > In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar
> > to the French original:
> > " Ein Couloir (französisch für Korridor) ist eine von Felsen
> > begrenzte und oft mit Schnee oder Eis gefüllte Rinne an einem
> > Berghang oder in einer Bergwand.
> > Couloirs sind steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist
> > dem Stein- oder Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)
> >
> > The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not
> > showing a French or German couloir.
> > In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for
> > something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.
> >
> > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.
> >
> > What about "gully" instead.
> >
> > BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people
> > (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)
> >
> >
> > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is
> > > different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially
> > > natural=valley
> > >
> > > -- Joseph Eisenberg
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not
> > > > just a tight valley.  Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s
> > > > a confined space often used for ascents or descents.
> > > >
> > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only
> > > > > the steepness?
> > > > >
> > > > > Volker
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <
> > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > Renewal of the natural=couloir tag :
> > > > > > Proposed_features/couloir_2
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a
> > > > > > mountainous terrain
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >  Tagging mailing list
> > > > > >  [hidden email]
> > > > > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Tagging mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >  Tagging mailing list
> > > >  [hidden email]
> > > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >  Tagging mailing list
> > >  [hidden email]
> > >  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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--
Kevin Broderick
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Stefan Tauner
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
There are already a number of related tags mentioned on the proposal
page explaining the major differences. While browsing I cam across
natural=earth_bank (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dearth_bank),
which is clearly different and not that interesting but could be
mentioned.

However, I also found landform=* (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Alandform)
and thought I should bring that up as a possible alternative way to tag
couloirs. It is not used a lot (and is based on a Canadian import) but
it is clearly more specific than the quite overloaded natural=* key.
Nevertheless I think natural=couloir is the most natural way (SCNR) to
tag it.
--
Kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Stefan Tauner

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