Feature Proposal - RFC - Refilling a purchased drink

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Feature Proposal - RFC - Refilling a purchased drink

bkil
I've sliced part of the drinking proposal to a new page. I've copied
the related comments.

So the question here is what would be the most efficient, most
intuitive way to tag places where you can refill your drink for free
(or for a discounted price?) after having purchased the first glass.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Refilling_a_purchased_drink

Some of the earlier related e-mails can be found under this thread:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-September/039164.html


Let me reply to the last question inline here:

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:28 AM Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (with cheaply produced unhealthy liquids anyway).
>

Well, the chosen drink could be as healthy as 100% fruit juice.
Although, if one is against the practice of refills, mapping these
could come in handy for those who want to campaign against it as well
to organize demonstrations.

> This is close to a restaurant review and
> not a geographical property.
>

The reason why we do not map more properties found in restaurant
reviews is that they fail the verifiability criterion due to
subjectivity or variability. This is why we do not map how "big" or
"delicious" the served meals or sandwiches are, how "spacious",
"crowded" or "clean" a place is, or how "organized", "friendly" or
"fast" table service is.

However, it is perfectly objective whether food is being served at all
(food=*), whether they serve ice cream, burgers or pizza (cuisine=*),
if air conditioning is installed or whether the purchased drinks are
eligible for refill. Verifying these is as simple as looking at the
website, menu or asking the staff and they will give a definite
answer. If you have recently moved to a town, or would like to try out
new places, it is very useful to be able to filter for places offering
carom billiards for example. Buffet lunch and refillable drinks are
feats that people also tend to look for as a novelty, thus it adds
value to be searchable. There exist websites on which you can search
for pubs offering given types of beers or serving breweries if you are
into this kind of thing.

There is nothing geographical about opening hours either, but users
see great value in it, and thus we map it. Compared to the
competition, OSM has the huge advantage of being extensible and being
usable offline. It adds value if we can navigate using a
self-contained database (think contact information). This does not
mean that OpenStreetMap should contain every single piece of
information in the world - we can link to Wikipedia/Wikidata for that.
However, if it sounds reasonable to visualize or search for a location
based on given criteria for a reasonable percentage of users, it
deserves to be mapped. Given such map extracts, business owners can
make decisions to open new venues or change practices at different
localities, tourists can use a reliable, unbiased guide to aid their
trip and stops, open minded locals or those skipping a train can
quickly get informed about new or interesting places to try.

And there's extensibility - the competition only maps for a subset of
highly profitable groups, like western automobile drivers with given
habits, while we can map for everyone. If there exists demand for a
given reasonable map use, we can cover it. Despite only appealing to a
niche, many are mapping using simple 3D tags, because they can.

Also, OSM is all about the community - if a given property has the
potential to increase community engagement, it should be especially
promoted in order to help grow the community itself. For example,
mapping those who welcome freeloaders is a win-win-win situation: the
amenities can see more traffic, passer-by can reduce their thirst and
mapping and actualizing of the amenities themselves can happen by yet
another group of volunteers.

> I am strongly against tagging the business practice how often a _paid_ glass of
> beverage is being refilled
>

Could you please clarify what policy this would violate that makes you
disapprove?

> It does not need much language either, handing the bottle and
> and a friendly look are usually self-explanatory and sufficient.
> I would support tagging the free tap-water refilling campaign as it is apparently a litter-avoiding
> idea and presumably ground-verifiable
>

The owncup=* campaign sounds like an idea to combat waste as well.
However, if a shop is part of both owncup & water-refill campaigns at
the same time, handing over your bottle may result in unwanted
consequences like getting beer in it!

So you vote for the possibility that no extra tag/description should
be added along `drinking_water=yes` (instead of =ask/on_demand) to
indicate that staff is handing out water on request and not a vending
machine/tap?

> (by some sticker or so at the door?).
>

It is definitely verifiable as all of these venues have staff that was
instructed by management to serve water to all, so asking any of them
should yield a unified answer. Some of the dozens of campaigns listed
have printable stickers, but note that they should all be different.

The best visibility for both venues and people should be via OSM
itself. However, if we do not highlight these via specific tags, this
visibility may be impaired. Renderers could be enhanced to highlight
various tag combinations, like drinking_water on bars, restaurants,
etc., though that is not ideal. Verification could also be made more
difficult, because if I see drinking_water=yes on a pub, I need to
first start looking for a vending machine/fountain/tap, if not found,
ask for an accessible vending machine/fountain/tap from staff, if they
don't know anything about those, then I ask whether they could
manually refill my container. This sounds a bit more awkward than
ideal.

> As a side note, I am surprised it needs such a campaign. I was never refused a filling of my water
> bottle, in various countries. Not in a pub while hiking, nor in an airport cafe (behind security
> where carrying water is not allowed).
> tom
>

Although nobody would deny you a glass of water on a hot summer day if
you were dangerously dehydrated, not every restaurant would like to
degrade their atmosphere to a pass-through house by lines of
freeloaders if they are situated at a busy location. Those who
volunteer to join such a campaign anticipate this traffic and educate
their staff to welcome all passer-by as a matter of business.

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Refilling a purchased drink

dieterdreist
Am Sa., 29. Sep. 2018 um 17:29 Uhr schrieb bkil <bkil.hu+[hidden email]>:
> I am strongly against tagging the business practice how often a _paid_ glass of
> beverage is being refilled
>

Could you please clarify what policy this would violate that makes you
disapprove?


it is basically a way of giving a discount to customers. Would you also want to add special offers of your supermarket, like buy one get one free? Without putting the price for the first (paid) glass in relation to usual prices, the information about free refills is worthless. E.g. if a glass of $SOFTDRINK is sold for 5 EUR and you can get up to 2 refills it is still more expensive than a place where a glass of $SOFTDRINK is sold for 1 EUR.

I am not sure there is (already) a policy, but I believe there is general agreement not to tag the price structure of shops or other amenities, unless it is a single fee (like for parking).
For me, this is kind of an edge case here, I would be willing to accept the tag, but I can see the arguments against it.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Refilling a purchased drink

bkil
On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 11:38 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Could you please clarify what policy this would violate that makes you
>> disapprove?
>
> it is basically a way of giving a discount to customers. Would you also want to add special offers of your supermarket, like buy one get one free?
>

Yes I would and I usually do, see happy_hours=*
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:happy_hours

Sometimes bakeries or fast food restaurants also offer discounts
before closing every day, so they don't need to throw out food (again
as a measure to reduce waste). Some of these are posted on the wall,
but some do not advertise this practice at all and are only obvious of
you happen to be be shopping inside just half an hour before closing.

The happy hour places I know have sustained this practice for years,
so it is a very stable feature. Mapping these is a very valuable
source of information.

> Without putting the price for the first (paid) glass in relation to usual prices,
>

Prices can change pretty often, like once a year or biannually, but
the practice of offering free refills is a stable feature in my
observation, so it is more feasible to map.

> the information about free refills is worthless.
> E.g. if a glass of $SOFTDRINK is sold for 5 EUR and you can get up to 2 refills it is still more expensive than a place where a glass of $SOFTDRINK is sold for 1 EUR.
>

Yes, you are correct. However, if I'm not mistaken, it is much more
common to see places that offer unlimited refills.

Then again, I personally do not "look for" or "prefer" such places, I
wish to map these because *other* people view this as an identifying
novelty property of a restaurant.

If you are that thirsty you should probably drop by a supermarket and
grab 1l of tomato juice or find a water tap instead if you ask me. ;-)

> I am not sure there is (already) a policy, but I believe there is general agreement not to tag the price structure of shops or other amenities, unless it is a single fee (like for parking).
>

I agree that keeping a whole price chart up to date manually is a
tedious and error prone process yielding low added value from the
standpoint of users and OSM, so we should definitely not be doing
that. Although specifying the cost of a single representative item
(cheapest or a widely available brand of beer in a pub?) could perhaps
help categorize the venue.

> For me, this is kind of an edge case here, I would be willing to accept the tag, but I can see the arguments against it.
> Cheers,
> Martin
>

Thank you for your clarification.

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Refilling a purchased drink

Jmapb
On 10/5/2018 1:23 PM, bkil wrote:

> I agree that keeping a whole price chart up to date manually is a
> tedious and error prone process yielding low added value from the
> standpoint of users and OSM, so we should definitely not be doing
> that. Although specifying the cost of a single representative item
> (cheapest or a widely available brand of beer in a pub?) could perhaps
> help categorize the venue.

Consistent with best tagging practices as I understand them:
  - It's great to tag whether something costs money or not. We have the
"fee=" key (and "*:fee=" namespace keys) for this purpose.
  - It's sometimes helpful to tag the actual price. But there's not a
great consensus on how to do it. Some people overload the "fee" tag with
actual price info, some people use "fee:price=" or "fee:charge=", some
people just use "charge=", and for toll roads people often use "toll=".
And of course pricing structures can be quite complex, so the values
often end up as free text description fields rather than anything parseable.
  - Adding actual price info for food/drink items is NOT done.
  - ...But, indicating the possibility of price discounts isn't entirely
out of the question. I'm thinking of the "happy_hours" tag for bars: It
indicates that discounted drinks are available during certain hours...
but again, not the actual happy hour drink prices.

So applying all this to the free refills question, I'd say it's a
reasonable thing to tag, but I'd discourage adding actual price info.
The drink namespace structure "drink:*=*" is already in use, so offhand
I could imagine something like
     drink:coffee=yes
     drink:coffee:free_refills=yes
or even just
     drink:coffee=yes;free_refills
If I encountered these tags, I'd know exactly what they meant. And I'd
be happy to know it!

An alternative might be
     drink:coffee=yes
     drink:coffee:refills=free|discounted
...which would allow us to encode discounted refills rather than just
free/not free.

However this works out, I look forward to drinking many cups of coffee. J

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