Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

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Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Joseph Eisenberg
I've created a complete proposal page for golf=cartpath

This tag has been used to specify that a path is a cart path within a
golf course, designated for the use of golf carts.

Please discuss if this tag is necessary and useful in combination with
highway=service or highway=path and golf_cart=designated.

Previously, some users had imported or tagged features as
golf=cartpath alone, but I believe this is incorrect; a golf cart path
should always be a type of highway, usually highway=service or
highway=path, even if the access is =private.

I see 2 possible benefits to adding this tag:

1) special renderings for golf course features, without having to do
spacial queries to find features within leisure=golf_course areas
(which is a little difficult)

2) helping validate cart path features that are within golf courses
but not connected to other paths.

The alternative is to just use the usually highway and access tags,
including golf_cart=designated and access=private / customers etc and
rely on the leisure=golf_course area to say that "this path is a golf
cart path".

Thoughts?

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Mateusz Konieczny-3

26 May 2019, 14:08 by [hidden email]:
I've created a complete proposal page for golf=cartpath
link?

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Markus-5
On Sun, 26 May 2019 at 18:39, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> link?

Seems to be this one:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:golf%3Dcartpath

Regards

Markus

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Markus-5
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
In my opinion it is very useful to tag golf cart paths additionally to
highway=service. However, i think a service=* sub-tag like e.g.
service=golf_cart_path (instead of golf=cartpath) would better fit to
the current highway tagging scheme.

Regards

Markus

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Joseph Eisenberg
Yes, that's the right link:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:golf%3Dcartpath

> In my opinion it is very useful to tag golf cart paths additionally to
highway=service. However, i think a service=* sub-tag like e.g.
service=golf_cart_path (instead of golf=cartpath) would better fit to
the current highway tagging scheme.

The problem with using service=* is that some golf cart paths may
appear to be too narrow for full-size motor vehicles, so they are
mapped as highway=path instead.

Currently Taginfo shows 11437 golf=cartpath, with 2 370 also tagged
highway=*, but only 1 147 are tagged highway=service. Using
overpass-turbo.eu, I see 978 ways tagged golf=cartpath and
highway=path.

On 5/27/19, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In my opinion it is very useful to tag golf cart paths additionally to
> highway=service. However, i think a service=* sub-tag like e.g.
> service=golf_cart_path (instead of golf=cartpath) would better fit to
> the current highway tagging scheme.
>
> Regards
>
> Markus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Mateusz Konieczny-3



27 May 2019, 01:42 by [hidden email]:
The problem with using service=* is that some golf cart paths may
appear to be too narrow for full-size motor vehicles, so they are
mapped as highway=path instead.
Is there anything wrong with using service tag on highway=footway?

We anyway have well established service tag at least for railways
and service roads.

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Markus-5
On Monday, May 27, 2019, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is there anything wrong with using service tag on highway=footway?

Is it allowed to walk on golf cart paths? If not, highway=footway seems inappropriate. And golf cart paths also don't go well with how highway=path is defined ("a generic or multi-use path open to non-motorized traffic") because golf carts are motorised vehicles.

What about a new highway tag instead (e.g. highway=golf_cart_path)?

Regards

Markus

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Paul Allen
On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 11:59, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is it allowed to walk on golf cart paths? If not, highway=footway seems inappropriate. And golf cart paths also don't go well with how highway=path is defined ("a generic or multi-use path open to non-motorized traffic") because golf carts are motorised vehicles.

What about a new highway tag instead (e.g. highway=golf_cart_path)?

I think there's a problem trying to make this work in two different situations.  One is paths for golf
carts on a golf course.  I don't see those as a good fit for highway.  The other is places like
Peachtree City, Georgia, which has a network of paths for golf carts (also permitting foot
and cycle traffic but not cars) that is essentially a parallel highway network.  Maybe we can come
up with semantics that fit both, maybe not.

Peachtree City's golf cart paths should be routeable.  They encourage people to use golf carts
rather than cars to get from point A to point B.  I doubt that golf courses would be happy if random
members of the public who happen to have a golf cart used the course to get from A to B.

Also, is there a defined path on golf courses?  I know there are no-go areas for golf carts
(the greens) but I'm not sure if there are delineated paths for golf carts.  More of an area
than a way, I think (but I studiously avoid anything to do with golf, or any other sport, so I
could be wrong).

Note: Peachtree City has a population of 35,000 and most families have a golf cart.  That means
there are 10,000 golf carts roaming 90 miles of cart-compatible paths.  It influenced Georgia
State legislators to allow golf carts on public streets, so those paths definitely need to be
routeable.

Possibly we need to expand the access tag to include golf carts.  And maybe electric disability/mobility
scooters.

--
Paul


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Joseph Eisenberg
> "Is it allowed to walk on golf cart paths?"

Markus,

Usually golf cart paths can be used by people walking as well, at
least at the few golf courses that I know in the western USA.

Some golf course paths are open to the general public (especially if
the course is owned by the town), but others are private; this is
covered by access=*.

> "Possibly we need to expand the access tag to include golf carts.  And maybe electric disability/mobility scooters."

Paul, the access tag golf_cart=* was recently approved:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:golf_cart

The question in this proposal is if we need a tag specifically for
golf cart paths on golf courses, rather than just using
highway=service and highway=path with golf_cart=designated.

On 5/27/19, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 11:59, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Is it allowed to walk on golf cart paths? If not, highway=footway seems
>> inappropriate. And golf cart paths also don't go well with how
>> highway=path
>> is defined ("a generic or multi-use path open to non-motorized traffic")
>> because golf carts are motorised vehicles.
>>
>> What about a new highway tag instead (e.g. highway=golf_cart_path)?
>>
>
> I think there's a problem trying to make this work in two different
> situations.  One is paths for golf
> carts on a golf course.  I don't see those as a good fit for highway.  The
> other is places like
> Peachtree City, Georgia, which has a network of paths for golf carts (also
> permitting foot
> and cycle traffic but not cars) that is essentially a parallel highway
> network.  Maybe we can come
> up with semantics that fit both, maybe not.
>
> Peachtree City's golf cart paths should be routeable.  They encourage
> people to use golf carts
> rather than cars to get from point A to point B.  I doubt that golf courses
> would be happy if random
> members of the public who happen to have a golf cart used the course to get
> from A to B.
>
> Also, is there a defined path on golf courses?  I know there are no-go
> areas for golf carts
> (the greens) but I'm not sure if there are delineated paths for golf
> carts.  More of an area
> than a way, I think (but I studiously avoid anything to do with golf, or
> any other sport, so I
> could be wrong).
>
> Note: Peachtree City has a population of 35,000 and most families have a
> golf cart.  That means
> there are 10,000 golf carts roaming 90 miles of cart-compatible paths.  It
> influenced Georgia
> State legislators to allow golf carts on public streets, so those paths
> definitely need to be
> routeable.
>
> Possibly we need to expand the access tag to include golf carts.  And maybe
> electric disability/mobility
> scooters.
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Paul Allen
On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 14:24, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

The question in this proposal is if we need a tag specifically for
golf cart paths on golf courses, rather than just using
highway=service and highway=path with golf_cart=designated.

I don't see a golf cart path on a golf course as being a highway as most people understand
the word.  This is OSM, and (like Humpty Dumpty) words can mean whatever we want them
to mean, but that tends to lead to things getting mistagged when people interpret words
with their normal meaning rather than the OSM meaning.

I am still unsure that golf cart paths on golf courses actually exist: my (very) limited
understanding is that there are large areas of the course where carts can travel with limited
exclusion zones (such as the greens).  I don't think there are (on most courses) delineated
paths (there may be minor cases on any given course, but for the most part it's an area with holes
in).

I may be very wrong on this, but for the most part it seems that it can be inferred (assuming
an access tag on the course itself does not prohibit golf carts): you can drive a golf cart
anywhere but the greens, bunkers and water hazards (greens are a "legal" prohibition;
bunkers and water hazards a physical limitation).  If you've mapped those then you've also
defined where the golf carts can go.  Hmmm, some areas of woodland and maybe even
the rough could physically exclude golf carts, but it can probably be inferred.

Now for an expert golfer to chip in (hah!) and tell me how I have it completely wrong.

--
Paul


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

marc marc
In reply to this post by Markus-5
Le 27.05.19 à 12:57, Markus a écrit :
> Is it allowed to walk on golf cart paths?

it probably varies according to the country and it probably
doesn't matter since the legislation is not tagged in osm.
it therefore seems more logical to me to put access tags if there are
signs for it and to use a generic value for highway (service seems
appropriate, or path for ways that do not have the width of a vehicle)
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:golf=cartpath

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Paul Allen

On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 23:43, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't see a golf cart path on a golf course as being a highway as most people understand
the word. 

I'd agree with you there

Now for an expert golfer to chip in (hah!)

That I certainly aren't! (haven't played the game since my teens, & that's a loooonnnngggg way back :-()
 
and tell me how I have it completely wrong.
 
Actually a mixture of right & wrong :-)
  
I am still unsure that golf cart paths on golf courses actually exist: my (very) limited
understanding is that there are large areas of the course where carts can travel with limited
exclusion zones (such as the greens).  I don't think there are (on most courses) delineated
paths (there may be minor cases on any given course, but for the most part it's an area with holes
in).

Most major courses that I have seen, have a sort of ring-road for carts to use, such as:

My understanding is that you use the path to get up close to your ball, then drive out onto the fairway to take your stroke, then back to the path & so on, but I've also seen carts driving happily down the middle of the fairway, so I guess it may be optional, probably depending on Club rules?

As you said though, greens are definitely out-of-bounds :-), as well as bunkers.

There will also usually (?) be a garage facility of some sort to store carts that people leave at the Club, or that the Club owns & hires out. I guess they would then be building=garage/s? Would they also need a golf_cart tag?


Thanks

Graeme

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