Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

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Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

Nikulainen, Jukka K
Hello everybody!

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tramtrack_on_highway

Definition: Cycling allowed on highway=*, but a tramway track (railway=tram) runs on it, though the tramway is mapped as a separate way.

Although I've been a mapper for over a decade, this is my first feature proposal.
Hopefully I have included everything needed for a complete RFC!

Sincerely,
Jukka (Tolstoi21)
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

Mateusz Konieczny-3
1. Nov 2018 12:53 by [hidden email]:

Although I've been a mapper for over a decade, this is my first feature proposal.
Hopefully I have included everything needed for a complete RFC!


copy of my replies on the talk page


(1)

I would introduce it as a separate key as

    It may be useful also for other purposes, not only for cyclists
    hijacking access key for related purpose is not a good idea

Maybe tramtracks=separately_mapped? railway=separate? 


(2)

It would be worth noting whatever this tagging should apply to both

- tram tracks on a road, separate lane for other vehicles

- no lanes without tram tracks

- some mixture of above

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

SelfishSeahorse
Anyway, i'm wondering why tram tracks that are embedded in a street are mapped with separate ways instead of reusing the street way? Separating them seems topologically wrong.

For example at this pedestrian crossing [1] one doesn't first cross tram tracks, then the street and then again tram tracks, but a street with embedded tracks in its mid. Or driving westwards on Schlossstrasse and turnung into Friedbühlweg at the nearby crossroads [2], one doesn't cross any tram tracks.

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

dieterdreist


Am Fr., 2. Nov. 2018 um 16:58 Uhr schrieb SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]>:
Anyway, i'm wondering why tram tracks that are embedded in a street are mapped with separate ways instead of reusing the street way? Separating them seems topologically wrong.



Frequently you can't get this right. You will often have just one carriageway (i.e. one highway way) and you will usually have 2 ways for the tram tracks (if you draw each of them).

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

SelfishSeahorse
On Friday, November 2, 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frequently you can't get this right. You will often have just one carriageway (i.e. one highway way) and you will usually have 2 ways for the tram tracks (if you draw each of them).

Although less precise, i would have only drawn one and tagged it tracks=2 in order to not break topology. I don't understand why traffic lanes (tagged on street way) and tram tracks (mapped with separate ways) are treated differently, although both are part of the same street.

Regards
Markus

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

dieterdreist
Am Fr., 2. Nov. 2018 um 18:21 Uhr schrieb SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]>:
On Friday, November 2, 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Although less precise, i would have only drawn one and tagged it tracks=2 in order to not break topology. I don't understand why traffic lanes (tagged on street way) and tram tracks (mapped with separate ways) are treated differently, although both are part of the same street.


because people are interested in the exact position and curves of tram ways. Basically, the tram ways are "physically separated" while the roads where they run on are often not. It is a problem of the model.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

Nikulainen, Jukka K
In reply to this post by Nikulainen, Jukka K
Hello again

Thank you for the very good critical comments! It is obvious that my original proposal of a bicycle= -tag for this purpose is a bad idea, but it should be introduced as a more general tag.

How should I proceed? Is is best to change the current proposal status to Canceled or Abandoned and introduce a new proposal with new tag values (and largely the same Rationales and Applies-to's)

Sorry, although I've been a mapper for a long time, this is my feature proposal (and I can't get the mailto: redirects to work either, sorry for that too).

Sincerely, Jukka
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

Mateusz Konieczny-3
5. Nov 2018 15:46 by [hidden email]:

Hello again

Thank you for the very good critical comments! It is obvious that my original proposal of a bicycle= -tag for this purpose is a bad idea, but it should be introduced as a more general tag.

How should I proceed? Is is best to change the current proposal status to Canceled or Abandoned and introduce a new proposal with new tag values (and largely the same Rationales and Applies-to's)


You can do this, but editing this page and changing proposed key is also perfectly OK (and may


be easier to do).


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by SelfishSeahorse
On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 10:59 AM SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Anyway, i'm wondering why tram tracks that are embedded in a street are mapped with separate ways instead of reusing the street way? Separating them seems topologically wrong.

Putting the centerline of the rails somewhere other than the middle of the tracks is arguably worse, particularly for use cases that depend on this (creating a train simulator, or pedestrian navigation, for example).  But, this can be alleviated with landuse=highway...
 

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

SelfishSeahorse
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 03:45, Paul Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Putting the centerline of the rails somewhere other than the middle of the tracks is arguably worse, particularly for use cases that depend on this (creating a train simulator, or pedestrian navigation, for example).

As far as pedestrian navigation is concerned, it depends on whether
sidewalks are mapped as separate ways or as tags on the road. In the
latter case, a pedestrian router doesn't know that there are tram
tracks on the road, but that there are tram tracks *next to* (outside)
the road.

Consider the following crossing and imagine that the northern sidewalk
of Schlossstrasse wasn't mapped as a separate way, but as sidewalk=*
on the road way:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/721154448

When turning from the northern sidewalk of Schlossstrasse into
Mutacherstrasse, a pedestrian router would assume that one has to
cross tram tracks (which obviously isn't the case). Even for vehicles
driving on westwards on Schlossstrasse and turning into
Mutacherstrasse a router would assume that the vehicle has to cross
tram tracks (although in reality the tram tracks are located in the
middle of the road and the traffic lane further away).

Regards
Markus

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

Paul Johnson-3

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 3:51 PM SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 03:45, Paul Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Putting the centerline of the rails somewhere other than the middle of the tracks is arguably worse, particularly for use cases that depend on this (creating a train simulator, or pedestrian navigation, for example).

As far as pedestrian navigation is concerned, it depends on whether
sidewalks are mapped as separate ways or as tags on the road. In the
latter case, a pedestrian router doesn't know that there are tram
tracks on the road, but that there are tram tracks *next to* (outside)
the road.

Consider the following crossing and imagine that the northern sidewalk
of Schlossstrasse wasn't mapped as a separate way, but as sidewalk=*
on the road way:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/721154448

When turning from the northern sidewalk of Schlossstrasse into
Mutacherstrasse, a pedestrian router would assume that one has to
cross tram tracks (which obviously isn't the case). Even for vehicles
driving on westwards on Schlossstrasse and turning into
Mutacherstrasse a router would assume that the vehicle has to cross
tram tracks (although in reality the tram tracks are located in the
middle of the road and the traffic lane further away).

Moot point, sidewalks should be mapped as separate ways for the same reason. 

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

SelfishSeahorse
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 23:17, Paul Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Moot point, sidewalks should be mapped as separate ways for the same reason.

I don't want to start another sidewalk discussion, but please note
that sidewalks as separate ways don't solve all problems. Especially
in residential areas without marked pedestrian crossings or lowered
kerbs, connecting sidewalks to streets (in order to prevent islands)
is arbitrary.

Besides, the second problem i described (position of traffic lanes
relative to tram tracks) would still be unsolved.

Regards
Markus

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

Nikulainen, Jukka K
In reply to this post by Nikulainen, Jukka K
Dear all!

Thank you for the insightful critical comments for the tag proposal.

I have now changed the tag value from a bicycle=* acces key to a railway= -key. I have also changed and updated the Rationale, Tagging and Applies to -fields according to the comments received here and on the talk page. Thanks again to everyone that commented and especially to Mateusz for the pictures. I'll try to get a few pictures too (of very gloomy November Helsinki) once I have the time.

See the changed proposal page at:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tramtrack_on_highway

And please do keep the comments coming! It seems that the rationale is in order and that there is indeed need for such a tag. Hopefully, we'll get to voting as soon as the tag values and tagging practices for it are ironed out.

Sincerely,
Jukka
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