Feature Proposal - RFC - appointment

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Feature Proposal - RFC - appointment

Ruben-3
Proposal for opening_hours syntax element "appointment", similar to "open" and "off":

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Opening_hours:_standard_appointment_syntax

Kind regards
Ruben

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - appointment

SimonPoole
Isn't this semantically in the end not the same as "unknown" (as in any
application would have to equate this to  "you have to inquire if it is
open")?

Am 08.09.2019 um 17:10 schrieb Ruben:

> Proposal for opening_hours syntax element "appointment", similar to "open" and "off":
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Opening_hours:_standard_appointment_syntax
>
> Kind regards
> Ruben
>
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - appointment

Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 at 01:12, Ruben <[hidden email]> wrote:
Proposal for opening_hours syntax element "appointment", similar to "open" and "off":

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Opening_hours:_standard_appointment_syntax

Not a bad idea at all, Ruben. 

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 at 06:13, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
Isn't this semantically in the end not the same as "unknown"
 
In some ways I suppose you could say it is unknown, but in other's it's not quite the same!
 
(as in any
application would have to equate this to  "you have to inquire if it is
open")?

Yes, you would - it tells you that you can't just walk in the door & expect to be seen, you have to ring them & make an appointment.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - appointment

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by SimonPoole


sent from a phone

On 8. Sep 2019, at 22:11, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

Isn't this semantically in the end not the same as "unknown" (as in any
application would have to equate this to  "you have to inquire if it is
open")?


it may be the same for apps, it isn’t for mappers, “unknown” is an imperative for surveying it. It may also make a difference for some searching for such features, because unknown means you might be lucky and they’ll serve you, by appointment means you must not even try if they might be open.

I welcome documenting this value, as it is already used with varying syntax more than 500 times, so it is clear mappers want it: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/opening_hours#values

Cheers Martin 

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - appointment

Warin
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
The key 'opening_hours' has a free from text entry facility. 

I have used this where a museum is open by appointment only thus 
'opening_hours="By appointment, phone ####"' (the ### is the phone number that I don't recall of the top of my head. 

I think this is more versatile than yet another value as it allows an individual response in the local language. 


On 09/09/19 06:11, Simon Poole wrote:
Isn't this semantically in the end not the same as "unknown" (as in any
application would have to equate this to  "you have to inquire if it is
open")?

Am 08.09.2019 um 17:10 schrieb Ruben:
Proposal for opening_hours syntax element "appointment", similar to "open" and "off":

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Opening_hours:_standard_appointment_syntax

Kind regards
Ruben

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - appointment

dieterdreist
I would use the "phone" key rather than mixing phone numbers in the opening hours value. If there are several phone numbers and one is dedicated for making appointments, it could be a phone subtag like phone:appointments=###

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - appointment

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by dieterdreist


Am 10.09.2019 um 10:00 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


sent from a phone

On 8. Sep 2019, at 22:11, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

Isn't this semantically in the end not the same as "unknown" (as in any
application would have to equate this to  "you have to inquire if it is
open")?


it may be the same for apps, it isn’t for mappers, “unknown” is an imperative for surveying it.

This is -not- supported by the existing documentation https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours#Summary_syntax


It may also make a difference for some searching for such features, because unknown means you might be lucky and they’ll serve you, by appointment means you must not even try if they might be open.

That on the other hand might be a useful distinction.

Simon


I welcome documenting this value, as it is already used with varying syntax more than 500 times, so it is clear mappers want it: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/opening_hours#values

Cheers Martin 

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - appointment

Ruben-3
In reply to this post by Warin
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:59:29 +1000, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 'opening_hours="By appointment, phone ####"' (the ### is the phone number that I don't recall of the top of my head.
>
> I think this is more versatile than yet another value as it allows an individual response in the local language.

I see "local language" as a big drawback in the following reasons:
- Data consumers might want to handle appointments differently. For example a POI browser that shows "now open" could use a different colour for "now open on appointment".
- Tourists using OsmAnd don't always understand the local language.
- In bi-lingual areas like the capital of Belgium, using local language would mean using both Dutch *and* French.

Do you have a more concrete example of what versatility you would be after? Something like Mo-Fr 09:00-18:00 "on appointment for non-members"?

Also note that the appointment keyword would allow additional comments. This works when specific instructions are needed like Mo-Fr 09:00-18:00 appointment "don't call, use the website".

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - appointment

Warin
On 15/09/19 01:59, Ruben wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:59:29 +1000, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 'opening_hours="By appointment, phone ####"' (the ### is the phone number that I don't recall of the top of my head.
>>
>> I think this is more versatile than yet another value as it allows an individual response in the local language.
> I see "local language" as a big drawback in the following reasons:
> - Data consumers might want to handle appointments differently. For example a POI browser that shows "now open" could use a different colour for "now open on appointment".
> - Tourists using OsmAnd don't always understand the local language.
> - In bi-lingual areas like the capital of Belgium, using local language would mean using both Dutch *and* French.

You may find the person answering only has local language. If bi-lingual then either language could be used, upto the mapper.

>
> Do you have a more concrete example of what versatility you would be after? Something like Mo-Fr 09:00-18:00 "on appointment for non-members"?
>
> Also note that the appointment keyword would allow additional comments. This works when specific instructions are needed like Mo-Fr 09:00-18:00 appointment "don't call, use the website".

A free text entry allows for anything. Could not be more versatile. If I came up with something requiring versatility and then you developed for it, then there would be yet another exception and so on.
There is always going to be some exception, free text entry provides for any exception.


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