Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

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Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Valor Naram
Hey guys,

my first proposal has been rejected for some reason. I have rewritten my proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check it out: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_featu res/changing_table

Author: Valor Naram
Definition: A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy. It makes tagging of changing tables possible. See https://en.oxforddict ionaries.com/definition/changing_table for the definition.
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 19. May 2019, at 20:31, Valor Naram <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have rewritten my proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check it out: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_featu res/changing_table
>
> Author: Valor Naram
> Definition: A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy. It makes tagging of changing tables possible. See https://en.oxforddict ionaries.com/definition/changing_table for the definition.


IMHO you should provide a definition for the feature in the proposal and be explicit if this is for a “possibility to change the baby’s nappy” or more specifically a “changing table”.


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Valor Naram


On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 04:32, Valor Naram <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey guys,

my first proposal has been rejected for some reason. I have rewritten my proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check it out:


Corrected typo in link address!

What changes have you made to the proposal?

Would be handy to have a section there to show what they were

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Warin
On 20/05/19 06:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 04:32, Valor Naram <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey guys,

my first proposal has been rejected for some reason. I have rewritten my proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check it out:


Corrected typo in link address!

What changes have you made to the proposal?

Would be handy to have a section there to show what they were



I think there has been a reduction in  the number of sub tags. But I don't think the reduction has gone far enough to appease the 'no' voters.

I think the proposal should only be about replacing the existing tag diaper=* with change_table=*. Nothing else, just that and see if that passes .. there are some who will object to just that and it could be a close call on just getting the replacement passed.

Good luck Valor.




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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Valor Naram
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
What do you mean with "feature"? Do you mean the whole proposal? Do you mean the "feature" subtag ( changing_table:features )?


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:




sent from a phone

> On 19. May 2019, at 20:31, Valor Naram wrote:
>
> I have rewritten my proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check it out: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_featu res/changing_table
>
> Author: Valor Naram
> Definition: A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy. It makes tagging of changing tables possible. See https://en.oxforddict ionaries.com/definition/changing_table for the definition.


IMHO you should provide a definition for the feature in the proposal and be explicit if this is for a “possibility to change the baby’s nappy” or more specifically a “changing table”.


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Warin
It is a 'property' tag .. like height etc and can only be used with some other feature so the definition should not be about the physical presence of a table.

I'd go with a definition that says something along the lines of "indicates the provision for changing a nappy/diaper usually on a table."
 
On 20/05/19 15:05, Valor Naram wrote:
What do you mean with "feature"? Do you mean the whole proposal? Do you mean the "feature" subtag ( changing_table:features )?


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:




sent from a phone

> On 19. May 2019, at 20:31, Valor Naram wrote:
>
> I have rewritten my proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check it out: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_featu res/changing_table
>
> Author: Valor Naram
> Definition: A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy. It makes tagging of changing tables possible. See https://en.oxforddict ionaries.com/definition/changing_table for the definition.


IMHO you should provide a definition for the feature in the proposal and be explicit if this is for a “possibility to change the baby’s nappy” or more specifically a “changing table”.


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Valor Naram


Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 07:07 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram <[hidden email]>:
What do you mean with "feature"? Do you mean the whole proposal? Do you mean the "feature" subtag ( changing_table:features )?


 "feature" is referring to whatever thing you are intending the tag for, or "property" if it is intended as a property for some other "feature".
I see you have now added "A tag for tagging changing tables." ,which is fine, I found the former, generic description "A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy." confusing, and would suggest to remove it (because "a possibility to ..." is much broader in meaning than just a changing table).

From what I understand, the tag seems to be intended as a property only (requires a "feature" to add to), right?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Valor Naram
> From what I understand, the tag seems to be intended as a property only (requires a "feature" to add to), right?

It intends to deprecate the diaper key which is currently used for tagging changing tables. I will deprecate the key for some reasons:
- Key `diaper` is poor documented
- Key `diaper` didn't go through the proposal process
- Key `diaper` does not support shematic tagging
- Key `diaper` leads to confusion of what it intends to tag
- Key `diaper` does not allow us to tag changing tables inside a restroom for wheelchair users
- Its subkey `diaper:wheelchair` is used but not documented yet and its meaning remains unclear.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:




Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 07:07 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram <[hidden email]>:
What do you mean with "feature"? Do you mean the whole proposal? Do you mean the "feature" subtag ( changing_table:features )?


 "feature" is referring to whatever thing you are intending the tag for, or "property" if it is intended as a property for some other "feature".
I see you have now added "A tag for tagging changing tables." ,which is fine, I found the former, generic description "A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy." confusing, and would suggest to remove it (because "a possibility to ..." is much broader in meaning than just a changing table).

From what I understand, the tag seems to be intended as a property only (requires a "feature" to add to), right?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

dieterdreist


Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 11:00 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram <[hidden email]>:
> From what I understand, the tag seems to be intended as a property only (requires a "feature" to add to), right?

It intends to deprecate the diaper key which is currently used for tagging changing tables.


To be precise, the page first pretends to be either tagging "changing tables" or "separated rooms" (I guess it should be "separate rooms"?), but the way the tag is structured it is the presence of a changing table that is tagged, not the table itself. Then the diaper key is defined as a property ("in combination with..."), so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely become a property (only) as well

"A key for diaper changing tables or separated rooms (sometimes known as a parents room) include a nappy/diaper changing table; in combination with toilets, shops, restaurants, service areas or something like that."

Cheers,
Martin

 


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Valor Naram
> [...] so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely become a property (only) as well

Ok. Does it matter? From what I understood so far most wiki pages describe `properties` e.g.: Key `highway`

Cheerio

Valor Naram alias Sören


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:




Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 11:00 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram <[hidden email]>:
> From what I understand, the tag seems to be intended as a property only (requires a "feature" to add to), right?

It intends to deprecate the diaper key which is currently used for tagging changing tables.


To be precise, the page first pretends to be either tagging "changing tables" or "separated rooms" (I guess it should be "separate rooms"?), but the way the tag is structured it is the presence of a changing table that is tagged, not the table itself. Then the diaper key is defined as a property ("in combination with..."), so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely become a property (only) as well

"A key for diaper changing tables or separated rooms (sometimes known as a parents room) include a nappy/diaper changing table; in combination with toilets, shops, restaurants, service areas or something like that."

Cheers,
Martin

 


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

dieterdreist

Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 12:36 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram <[hidden email]>:
> [...] so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely become a property (only) as well
Ok. Does it matter? From what I understood so far most wiki pages describe `properties` e.g.: Key `highway`


the difference of a feature and a property is that a property cannot be tagged alone, it requires a feature (e.g. "surface", or "oneway", or "height"). On the other hand, a feature is defining a "thing", e.g. a highway defined through the tag "highway". It is not a property, but a feature (and the values are different "classes" of this feature).

OSM does actually not explicitly make this distinction (AFAIK), but it is implicit in how people are using the tags.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Valor Naram
then it's a property


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:



Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 12:36 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram <[hidden email]>:
> [...] so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely become a property (only) as well
Ok. Does it matter? From what I understood so far most wiki pages describe `properties` e.g.: Key `highway`


the difference of a feature and a property is that a property cannot be tagged alone, it requires a feature (e.g. "surface", or "oneway", or "height"). On the other hand, a feature is defining a "thing", e.g. a highway defined through the tag "highway". It is not a property, but a feature (and the values are different "classes" of this feature).

OSM does actually not explicitly make this distinction (AFAIK), but it is implicit in how people are using the tags.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Warin
On 20/05/19 22:20, Valor Naram wrote:
then it's a property

Yes.

The tag highway=residential says that is a road here,  a physical presence.

The tag surface=grass says that whatever is here has a grass surface, but does not say what the physical presence is.

If there is a thing tagged with both highway=residential and surface=grass then it says there is a road with a grass surface.

For change tables they would commonly be combined with toilets, possibly other things too like libraries, community halls, camp sites etc. 

So the description of surface does not say what the physical presence is, nor should change table. For change table it is the provision of the activity.



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:



Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 12:36 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram <[hidden email]>:
> [...] so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely become a property (only) as well
Ok. Does it matter? From what I understood so far most wiki pages describe `properties` e.g.: Key `highway`


the difference of a feature and a property is that a property cannot be tagged alone, it requires a feature (e.g. "surface", or "oneway", or "height"). On the other hand, a feature is defining a "thing", e.g. a highway defined through the tag "highway". It is not a property, but a feature (and the values are different "classes" of this feature).

OSM does actually not explicitly make this distinction (AFAIK), but it is implicit in how people are using the tags.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

marc marc
Hello,

 > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

questions / minor suggestions :

in changing_table:location=room what's the usecase of :
"or the floor to the toilets" ? maybe just drop it.
if someone wants to put their child on the floor, I don't see how
we could describe that this floor is adapted but not this other one

the first sentence of the tagging paragraph is about the rational (why
some other existing tag doesn't fit the need),
drop or move it to the rational paragraph

Regards,
Marc
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Valor Naram
I think that this is a language issue and the hallway (German "Flur") is meant, not the floor.

Am Dienstag, 21. Mai 2019, 03:11:32 MESZ hat marc marc <[hidden email]> Folgendes geschrieben:


Hello,

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

questions / minor suggestions :

in changing_table:location=room what's the usecase of :
"or the floor to the toilets" ? maybe just drop it.
if someone wants to put their child on the floor, I don't see how
we could describe that this floor is adapted but not this other one

the first sentence of the tagging paragraph is about the rational (why
some other existing tag doesn't fit the need),
drop or move it to the rational paragraph

Regards,
Marc

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Valor Naram
Yes, right. Sry for this. I learnt that "floor" means "Flur" in german language. Seems to be incorrect.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
From: Michael Brandtner via Tagging
To: [hidden email]
CC: Michael Brandtner


I think that this is a language issue and the hallway (German "Flur") is meant, not the floor.

Am Dienstag, 21. Mai 2019, 03:11:32 MESZ hat marc marc <[hidden email]> Folgendes geschrieben:


Hello,

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

questions / minor suggestions :

in changing_table:location=room what's the usecase of :
"or the floor to the toilets" ? maybe just drop it.
if someone wants to put their child on the floor, I don't see how
we could describe that this floor is adapted but not this other one

the first sentence of the tagging paragraph is about the rational (why
some other existing tag doesn't fit the need),
drop or move it to the rational paragraph

Regards,
Marc

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

Valor Naram
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
I corrected the language issue and also moved the text in the "Tagging" section to the "Rationale" section as suggested by Marc

Thank you both

Best regards

Sören alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
From: Michael Brandtner via Tagging
To: [hidden email]
CC: Michael Brandtner


I think that this is a language issue and the hallway (German "Flur") is meant, not the floor.

Am Dienstag, 21. Mai 2019, 03:11:32 MESZ hat marc marc <[hidden email]> Folgendes geschrieben:


Hello,

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

questions / minor suggestions :

in changing_table:location=room what's the usecase of :
"or the floor to the toilets" ? maybe just drop it.
if someone wants to put their child on the floor, I don't see how
we could describe that this floor is adapted but not this other one

the first sentence of the tagging paragraph is about the rational (why
some other existing tag doesn't fit the need),
drop or move it to the rational paragraph

Regards,
Marc

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

marc marc
thanks, it look like fine.

Le 22.05.19 à 14:44, Valor Naram a écrit :

> I corrected the language issue and also moved the text in the "Tagging"
> section to the "Rationale" section as suggested by Marc
>
> Thank you both
>
> Best regards
>
> Sören alias Valor Naram
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
> From: Michael Brandtner via Tagging
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: Michael Brandtner
>
>
>     I think that this is a language issue and the hallway (German
>     "Flur") is meant, not the floor.
>
>     Am Dienstag, 21. Mai 2019, 03:11:32 MESZ hat marc marc
>     <[hidden email]> Folgendes geschrieben:
>
>
>     Hello,
>
>      > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table
>
>     questions / minor suggestions :
>
>     in changing_table:location=room what's the usecase of :
>     "or the floor to the toilets" ? maybe just drop it.
>     if someone wants to put their child on the floor, I don't see how
>     we could describe that this floor is adapted but not this other one
>
>     the first sentence of the tagging paragraph is about the rational (why
>     some other existing tag doesn't fit the need),
>     drop or move it to the rational paragraph
>
>     Regards,
>     Marc
>
>     _______________________________________________
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

Warin
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

The present definition for the tag 'changing_table' is "A tag for
tagging changing tables".


This is a 'self referencing description'. One way of
testing/demonstrating this is to remove any words in the description
that are present in the source.

This would make the description "A for " ... and that demonstrates the
failing of a self referencing description, they add no real information
to aid a person who does not know what is mean by the tag 'changing_table'.

-------------------------------------------------

So what is a better description for OSM use? The tag is to be used to
indicate the presence of an aid to replacing babies nappies, so start
with that in a broad sense?

"an aid to replacing clothing"

That could be applied to dolls, animals etc .. so make it for humans,
usually babies?


"an aid to replacing human, usually babies, clothing"

Clothing might be too general, so reduce it to nappies/diaper?


"an aid to replacing human, usually babies, nappies/diaper"








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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

marc marc
Le 23.05.19 à 01:03, Warin a écrit :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table
> 'self referencing description'
> So what is a better description for OSM use?
> "an aid to replacing human, usually babies, nappies/diaper"

someone in the profession pointed out that there is no adult table,
even in a specialized environment, I don't see the point
in keeping a confusion in the description.

proposal:
an infrastructure adapted to change nappies/diapers for babies
or young children
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