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Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
 
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I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea Please visit and comment for this proposal, thanks. _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 16:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote: I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages Looking at your proposal, I fail to see how these are not shop=beverages. From your proposal: "The tag shop=bubble_tea describe shops providing freshly made bubble tea, juice, milk tea or other beverages." So it sells beverages. Bubble tea, juice, and milk tea are beverages. "Other beverages" are, somewhat obviously, beverages. It is a shop selling beverages. One of those beverages is bubble tea, but it is a shop selling beverages. Your proposal mentions several features that I do not see as being unique to bubble tea shops or excluding beverage shops. Beverage shops may supply fresh tea and juice. Beverage shops may be, and usually are, takeaway only. Delivery service is not common for beverage shops in general but, unless all bubble tea shops deliver then it is better handled with delivery=yes|no (actually, it's better handled with delivery=yes|no anyway). The example in your proposal explicitly lists the beverages sold, and explicitly has takeaway=only. I fail to see how making this shop=bubble_tea rather than shop=beverage accomplishes anything. About the only thing I see useful in your proposal is that having shop=bubble_tea allows a way of searching for shops that sell bubble tea. But your example has drink:bubble_tea=yes which provides a way of searching for shops that sell bubble tea. Having shop=bubble_tea seems unnecessary. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any point to this. -- Paul _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:50, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 16:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages >> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea > > > Looking at your proposal, I fail to see how these are not shop=beverages. Have you seen a bubble tea shop? It's basically a cafe. It prepares drinks to order. Best tagging I've seen around me is amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acuisine%3Dbubble_tea - per https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cuisine=bubble_tea it's not very common but for example iD presets have amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea for Chatime https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/blob/c0b65aacf04be6753f6e7e82007399bee1e65fdc/brands/amenity/cafe.json#L314-L329 as well as Gong Cha, Sharetea, and a few others. I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since it's much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store. > Your proposal mentions several features that I do not see as being > unique to bubble tea shops or excluding beverage shops. Beverage > shops may supply fresh tea and juice. But usually they do not. Example picture on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbeverages looks exactly what I would consider a German "beverage shop" (Getränkemarkt) - it sells already prepared and packaged drinks in bottles, cans, or jugs, in a supermarket style where customers pick up their selection and bring it to a cashier. In a bubble tea place you place an order and it is prepared and served to you. If a pharmacy is not a shop in OSM, neither should a bubble tea place. --Jarek _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:28, Jarek Piórkowski <[hidden email]> wrote: On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:50, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote: Nope. :)
As described in the proposal, most lack seating. Which makes those without seating shops rather than cafes.
Seems reasonable, if they have seats and they also serve food.
I can see that it's more like fast food since the stuff has to be prepared. But then I think "Starbucks." Have we already standardized on a way of tagging somewhere without seats that sells takeaway coffee?
So like a place that sells takeaway coffee but the list of beverages is different. If we have a way of mapping coffee takeaways then use that with drink:bubble_tea=yes. If we don't have a way of mapping coffee takeaways then we probably need one that can,deal with coffee, bubble tea and whatever else with appropriate drink:*=*. -- Paul _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 12:42, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It's basically a cafe. It prepares drinks to order. Best tagging I've >> seen around me is amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea > > As described in the proposal, most lack seating. Which makes those > without seating shops rather than cafes. This is the first time I'm hearing about an OSM distinction between shop and cafe based on seating or not. If there's an espresso counter that does takeaway only does that become no longer an amenity=cafe + cuisine=coffee_shop? I can think of several coffee shops in Toronto that only do takeaway - e.g. in office areas, or near parks. Would it not be better to tag dine_in=no or something? >> I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since it's >> much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store. > > I can see that it's more like fast food since the stuff has to be prepared. > But then I think "Starbucks." Have we already standardized on a way > of tagging somewhere without seats that sells takeaway coffee? I'd use amenity=cafe + cuisine=coffee_shop, I guess could add takeaway=only ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > If we don't have a way of mapping > coffee takeaways then we probably need one that can,deal with coffee, > bubble tea and whatever else with appropriate drink:*=*. Still not sure why we can't just use cafe. Is "cafe" exclusively for sit-down, dine-in places in British English? --Jarek _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by Paul Allen
I also think amenity=bubble_tea is more appropriate, but shop=bubble_tea is fine. _______________________________________________
Using amenity=cafe seems wrong. An amenity=cafe has "sit-down facilities" according to the wiki. Also the word "cafe" is from "coffee" - at least in the USA and Indonesia these places always sell coffee, unlike a Bubble Tea shop. I find it quite strange that amenity=cafe is being suggested for tea shops, bagel shops and donut shops on the wiki. This seems to be based on some cultural assumptions about what is a "cafe" in European contexts, but this does not match usage in Asia and North America. – Joseph Eisenberg On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 9:43 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:28, Jarek Piórkowski <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:50, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 16:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> >> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages >> >> >> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea >> > >> > >> > Looking at your proposal, I fail to see how these are not shop=beverages. >> >> Have you seen a bubble tea shop? > > > Nope. :) >> >> >> It's basically a cafe. It prepares drinks to order. Best tagging I've >> seen around me is amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea > > > As described in the proposal, most lack seating. Which makes those > without seating shops rather than cafes. >> >> >> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acuisine%3Dbubble_tea - >> per https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cuisine=bubble_tea it's not >> very common but for example iD presets have amenity=cafe + >> cuisine=bubble_tea for Chatime >> https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/blob/c0b65aacf04be6753f6e7e82007399bee1e65fdc/brands/amenity/cafe.json#L314-L329 >> as well as Gong Cha, Sharetea, and a few others. > > > Seems reasonable, if they have seats and they also serve food. >> >> >> I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since it's >> much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store. > > > I can see that it's more like fast food since the stuff has to be prepared. > But then I think "Starbucks." Have we already standardized on a way > of tagging somewhere without seats that sells takeaway coffee? >> >> >> In a bubble tea place you place an order and it is prepared and served to you. > > > So like a place that sells takeaway coffee but the list of beverages > is different. If we have a way of mapping coffee takeaways then > use that with drink:bubble_tea=yes. If we don't have a way of mapping > coffee takeaways then we probably need one that can,deal with coffee, > bubble tea and whatever else with appropriate drink:*=*. > > -- > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > [hidden email] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:49, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:28, Jarek Piórkowski <jarek at piorkowski.ca> wrote: >> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:50, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote: >> > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 16:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging < >> tagging at openstreetmap.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very >> common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages >> >> >> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea >> > >> > >> > Looking at your proposal, I fail to see how these are not shop=beverages. >> >> Have you seen a bubble tea shop? >> > > Nope. :) > >> >> It's basically a cafe. It prepares drinks to order. Best tagging I've >> seen around me is amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea >> > > As described in the proposal, most lack seating. Which makes those > without seating shops rather than cafes. > >> >> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acuisine%3Dbubble_tea - >> per https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cuisine=bubble_tea it's not >> very common but for example iD presets have amenity=cafe + >> cuisine=bubble_tea for Chatime >> >> https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/blob/c0b65aacf04be6753f6e7e82007399bee1e65fdc/brands/amenity/cafe.json#L314-L329 >> as well as Gong Cha, Sharetea, and a few others. >> > > Seems reasonable, if they have seats and they also serve food. > >> >> I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since it's >> much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store. >> > > I can see that it's more like fast food since the stuff has to be prepared. > But then I think "Starbucks." Have we already standardized on a way > of tagging somewhere without seats that sells takeaway coffee? > >> >> In a bubble tea place you place an order and it is prepared and served to >> you. >> > > So like a place that sells takeaway coffee but the list of beverages > is different. If we have a way of mapping coffee takeaways then > use that with drink:bubble_tea=yes. If we don't have a way of mapping > coffee takeaways then we probably need one that can,deal with coffee, > bubble tea and whatever else with appropriate drink:*=*. Thanks Paul and thanks Jerek. Sorry for didn't described clearly in the proposal. The reason that I made this proposal is because after I sent a pull request to add a bubble tea shop in the name-suggestion-index on Github (https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/pull/3998), an user reminded me that some of the bubble tea shops are tagged with amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea, instead, shop=beverages is more for the place selling cans or bottles of beer and other beverages. It confused me because most of the users in Taiwan have used shop=beverages a lot and it had been some brands such as 50嵐, CoCo都可, 大苑子DaYuans, 清心福全ChingShin and 茶湯會TP-TEA in the name-suggestion-index/shop=beverages already. In my opinion, amenity=cafe is not suitable for bubble tea shop even if takeout coffee shop is common nowadays. Bubble tea shops usually don't serve coffee and snacks and mostly don't have seats. I'd also checked the original shop=beverages proposal page (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Beverages) which was drafted in 2008 and never been voted. It's widely used in Germany Before drafted this proposal, I'd done some research and found some interesting point. This is shop=beverages in NYC http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Vvc Most of them are beer seller, and some bubble tea shop, some are coffee shop (mismapped). and shop=beverages in Dusseldorf http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Vvd most of them are beer and wines market. I believe that currently most of the shop=beverages are located in Germany and Taiwan, but the form are very different between two places. I think amenity=bubble_tea may be an option but really not sure wether use amenity or shop is better. _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by Jarek Piórkowski
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:50, Jarek Piórkowski <[hidden email]> wrote: Still not sure why we can't just use cafe. Is "cafe" exclusively for British English usage is always slippery (because of marketers) but I'd say that a cafe offers some sort of food somewhere to sit. As in meaning 1 of https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caf%C3%A9 Sometimes we have tea shops (but they sell other beverages) and coffee shops (but they sell other beverages) and those sell some sort of food (cakes, or sandwiches, or fry-ups, or whatever). They get mapped as amenity=cafe. :) -- Paul _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:56, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I still thing they sell beverages and bubble_tea happens to be one of those beverages. That's why we have drink:*=yes.
And according to me, as a British English speaker.
Yes, but a cafe sells some sort of food, too, no matter the etymology.
In British English we have tea shops - they also sell coffee and food. We have coffee shops - they also sell tea and food. Functionally, they are cafes, as OSM tags define that term. As these things have been described by later posts, they're closer to fast food places than cafes, but for drinks rather than food. Whatever main tag we settle on, I think beverages is better than bubble_tea since the proposal already included drink:bubble_tea=yes. Then we can deal with a shop that has no seats and sells only hot coffee to take away. Or iced tea. Or fresh juices made from whole fruit on the spot. Or whatever. -- Paul _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by Paul Allen
FWIW, I also believe these are very different from shop=beverages, as they are selling drinks ready to consume, while shop=beverages is a kind of shop that sells beverages to take home (while nothing prevents you from buying a single drink and consume it as soon as you leave the shop, this is not what typically is done and not how they are set up. Just compare these two images to get an understanding what they might look like and what kind of "style" it is: It is also about quantity. You will usually buy large quantities in a beverage shop like a weeks ration, while the bubble tea shop is more like a coffee to go or an ice cream parlour. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by Paul Allen
Am Fr., 26. Juni 2020 um 19:47 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen <[hidden email]>:
I believe it is an omission of the early days that we do not distinguish between tea shops and coffee shops, they are quite different. In my home town there is a tea shop, (mostly) ladies meet there, they do not sell any coffee but have a wide variety of tea, which you can consume on the premises but also take home (they have lots of containers and will weigh and fill the tea you ask in paper bags, they have fine qualities of tea, they do not sell any food AFAIK but there may be some cookies, etc.) while in most cafes you will not get very good tea, at most some better quality tea bag tea.
+1 (bubble tea)
no, shop=beverages as I have only seen it applied, is about a kind of "supermarket" or "convenience store" for beverages, it is not a kind of cafe, fast food or whatever category of food and drink amenity we come up with.
all these are not a kind of "supermarket" "convenience shop" ... Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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There is a tag shop=tea According to the wiki (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Ashop%3Dtea) this is supposed to be used for shops which sell tea leaves and bags of tea leaves for consumption at home or elsewhere. However, in practice many shop=tea features are "tea houses" which sell brewed tea. See https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Vvi Here in Oregon we have a Boba tea place which is tagged shop=tea - http://bobahead.com - https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7058798286 – Joseph Eisenberg On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:02 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 17:41:31 +0100
Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:28, Jarek Piórkowski <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > > > > I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since > > it's much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store. > > > > I can see that it's more like fast food since the stuff has to be > prepared. But then I think "Starbucks." Have we already standardized > on a way of tagging somewhere without seats that sells takeaway > coffee? The ubiquitous American coffee stands, which may or may not have seating, are "amenity=cafe" + "cuisine=coffee_shop". -- Mark _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by Paul Allen
Jun 26, 2020, 18:41 by [hidden email]:
Places selling kebab/roasted potatoes are often without seating, tagged amenity=fast_food and no one ever proposed shop=fast_food for ones without seating. amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea seems OK to me, amenity=bubble_tea also seems fine (though it will have trouble with support among data consumers), shop=bubble_tea seems OK but I would not care at all about seating
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by Mark Wagner
I believe many mappers are confused a lot for choosing the right tag just like me.
So if we have a normal coffee house providing coffee and have seat we use * amenity=cafe + cuisine=coffee_shop (but the cuisine tag is not included in iD preset so many users do not add them) and if it is only a roadside store or a peddler we should use * amenity=cafe + cuisine=coffee_shop along with takeout=only And a teahouse have seats use * amenity=cafe + cuisine=tea ? (not mentioned in OSM wiki) * shop=tea ? (might be confused with shop selling tea equipments and tea leaves) * amenity=teahouse (which was a draft proposal but few discussion) but like a bubble tea shop use * amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea + takeout=only ? * shop=bubble_tea or shop=beverages (causing confused with beverages market) Furthermore we still have ice cream store use * amenity=ice_cream and I've noticed that shaved ice store sometimes use amenity=ice_cream, sometimes use amenity=cafe, and sometimes use amenity=fast_food, nevertheless donut shop and bagel shop still use amenity=cafe + cuisine=donut/begal I'm not sure if we should solved all these problem at one time or just clarify how to map the bubble tea shop only for takeaway. But I think if we use cuisine=* to distinguish coffee shop, tea house, bubble tea shop, donut shop, bagel shop and shaved ice shop, it's better to have own icon and wiki pages for each of them - Tan _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 19:53 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
I would call that a takeaway in everyday language which we map as fast food in OSM. Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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sent from a phone > On 27. Jun 2020, at 16:03, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I would call that a takeaway in everyday language which we map as fast food in OSM. I would be ok with fast food for bubble tea, although typically you say “food and drinks”, i.e. calling a place where you can get only things to drink and nothing to eat might seem a bit strange? The fast food term has also some connotations about being not healthy, synonymous to “junk food” (devouring hastily food with a unhealthy relation of nutritional components). It’s probably acceptable for bubble tea, but we shouldn’t see it as a general category for takeaways, shall we? Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 16:33 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > sent from a phone > > > On 27. Jun 2020, at 16:03, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> > > wrote: > > > > I would call that a takeaway in everyday language which we map as > > fast food in OSM. > > I would be ok with fast food for bubble tea, although typically you > say “food and drinks”, i.e. calling a place where you can get only > things to drink and nothing to eat might seem a bit strange? > > The fast food term has also some connotations about being not > healthy, synonymous to “junk food” (devouring hastily food with a > unhealthy relation of nutritional components). It’s probably > acceptable for bubble tea, but we shouldn’t see it as a general > category for takeaways, shall we? > If you say 'fast food' most people would think of American imports such as McDonalds and KFC, not the local fish and chip shop or Chinese (take away). Phil (trigpoint) _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 6/27/20 09:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I would be ok with fast food for bubble tea, although typically you > say “food and drinks”, i.e. calling a place where you can get only > things to drink and nothing to eat might seem a bit strange? > > The fast food term has also some connotations about being not > healthy, synonymous to “junk food” (devouring hastily food with a > unhealthy relation of nutritional components). It’s probably > acceptable for bubble tea, but we shouldn’t see it as a general > category for takeaways, shall we? I have been tagging Starbucks as amenity=cafe; I don't see what's wrong with tagging these the same way. -- Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]> http://www.rantroulette.com http://www.skqrecordquest.com _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea
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On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 09:48 -0500, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> On 6/27/20 09:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > I would be ok with fast food for bubble tea, although typically you > > say “food and drinks”, i.e. calling a place where you can get only > > things to drink and nothing to eat might seem a bit strange? > > > > The fast food term has also some connotations about being not > > healthy, synonymous to “junk food” (devouring hastily food with a > > unhealthy relation of nutritional components). It’s probably > > acceptable for bubble tea, but we shouldn’t see it as a general > > category for takeaways, shall we? > > I have been tagging Starbucks as amenity=cafe; I don't see what's > wrong > with tagging these the same way. Starbucks in my experience has seating, I am unaware of any which are takeaway only. Phil (trigpoint) _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
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