Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

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Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Vɑdɪm
Hello,

I'm proposing to use leisure=sunbathing to tag an outdoor location
where people can sunbathe:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sunbathing

Rationale:

There is no currently a standard way to tag an outdoor location
(probably designated) where people can practice sunbathing. Swimming
and bathing suggests using landuse=grass to tag a lawn for sunbathing
which is actually more suitable for a lawn in general than for a
sunbathing area specifically.

Such locations can be usually found next to swimming and bathing areas
like beaches and swimming pools, for example at a
leisure=beach_resort. But they can also be located somewhere else
there is no accessible beach or even access to the water available.

Regards,
Vadim

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 2. Sep 2019, at 15:14, Vadim Shlyakhov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There is no currently a standard way to tag an outdoor location
> (probably designated) where people can practice sunbathing.


sunbathing is exposing your skin to the sun, AFAIK it doesn’t require special equipment or a specific space, is this about a legal property (are there places where sunbathing is forbidden?), or what prevents me from drawing this feature everywhere?

Cheers Martin
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Vɑdɪm
From my understanding, sunbathing isn't merely exposing you skin to
the sun, but it's rather a recreational activity. One may say it's
rather a ritual in the modern society.

As per the Oxford dictionary
(https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/sunbathing) "sunbathing" is:

"The activity of sitting or lying in the sun, especially to tan the skin".

"leisure=sunbathing" is a place where people come specifically to
practice sunbathing. As I wrote, it may be a designated place
somewhere at the beach (and not only). Perhaps it could also be just a
popular place for "sitting or lying in the sun, especially to tan the
skin".

On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 at 16:38, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 2. Sep 2019, at 15:14, Vadim Shlyakhov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > There is no currently a standard way to tag an outdoor location
> > (probably designated) where people can practice sunbathing.
>
>
> sunbathing is exposing your skin to the sun, AFAIK it doesn’t require special equipment or a specific space, is this about a legal property (are there places where sunbathing is forbidden?), or what prevents me from drawing this feature everywhere?
>
> Cheers Martin
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Warin
In Australia most people 'sunbathe' on a beach of sand. Some 'sunbathe'
in their own backyard. High rates of sun exposure gets 'melanoma' and
there are publicity campaigns to get people to cover up from sun
exposure. It is not something that would be mapped in Australia .. you
can 'sunbathe' pretty much anywhere, parks, beaches, pools, backyards,
beside rivers, etc etc.

On 3/9/19 12:31 am, Vadim Shlyakhov wrote:

>  From my understanding, sunbathing isn't merely exposing you skin to
> the sun, but it's rather a recreational activity. One may say it's
> rather a ritual in the modern society.
>
> As per the Oxford dictionary
> (https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/sunbathing) "sunbathing" is:
>
> "The activity of sitting or lying in the sun, especially to tan the skin".
>
> "leisure=sunbathing" is a place where people come specifically to
> practice sunbathing. As I wrote, it may be a designated place
> somewhere at the beach (and not only). Perhaps it could also be just a
> popular place for "sitting or lying in the sun, especially to tan the
> skin".
>
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 at 16:38, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 2. Sep 2019, at 15:14, Vadim Shlyakhov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is no currently a standard way to tag an outdoor location
>>> (probably designated) where people can practice sunbathing.
>>
>> sunbathing is exposing your skin to the sun, AFAIK it doesn’t require special equipment or a specific space, is this about a legal property (are there places where sunbathing is forbidden?), or what prevents me from drawing this feature everywhere?
>>

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Vɑdɪm
  1. It's definitely for the designated locations (like in the 1st example).
  2. For the other ones consider if some places could be more suitable, popular or simply good for sunbathing, as contrasted with the rest where sunbathing is still accepted/legal. The later case is obviously quite subjective, while somewhat similar to the tourism=viewpoint

On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 at 00:54, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
In Australia most people 'sunbathe' on a beach of sand. Some 'sunbathe'
in their own backyard. High rates of sun exposure gets 'melanoma' and
there are publicity campaigns to get people to cover up from sun
exposure. It is not something that would be mapped in Australia .. you
can 'sunbathe' pretty much anywhere, parks, beaches, pools, backyards,
beside rivers, etc etc.

On 3/9/19 12:31 am, Vadim Shlyakhov wrote:
>  From my understanding, sunbathing isn't merely exposing you skin to
> the sun, but it's rather a recreational activity. One may say it's
> rather a ritual in the modern society.
>
> As per the Oxford dictionary
> (https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/sunbathing) "sunbathing" is:
>
> "The activity of sitting or lying in the sun, especially to tan the skin".
>
> "leisure=sunbathing" is a place where people come specifically to
> practice sunbathing. As I wrote, it may be a designated place
> somewhere at the beach (and not only). Perhaps it could also be just a
> popular place for "sitting or lying in the sun, especially to tan the
> skin".
>
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 at 16:38, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 2. Sep 2019, at 15:14, Vadim Shlyakhov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is no currently a standard way to tag an outdoor location
>>> (probably designated) where people can practice sunbathing.
>>
>> sunbathing is exposing your skin to the sun, AFAIK it doesn’t require special equipment or a specific space, is this about a legal property (are there places where sunbathing is forbidden?), or what prevents me from drawing this feature everywhere?
>>

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

dieterdreist
you might want to refer to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:nudism as suitable combination.


Cheers Martin 

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Richard Z.
In reply to this post by Warin
On Tue, Sep 03, 2019 at 07:52:38AM +1000, Warin wrote:
> In Australia most people 'sunbathe' on a beach of sand. Some 'sunbathe' in
> their own backyard. High rates of sun exposure gets 'melanoma' and there are
> publicity campaigns to get people to cover up from sun exposure.

wildy offtopic so I bite my tongue to reply to that.

Richard

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Vɑdɪm
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
dieterdreist wrote
> you might want to refer to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:nudism
> as suitable combination.

The difference with the nudism=* key though is that leisure=sunbathing is
supposed for tagging of a self-sufficient area which may be a part of some
larger area like a beach or a leisure=beach_resort or it may be completely
"stand-alone" area, dissociated of any hierarchy.

Would it be useful to add something like sunbathing=* if needed?

value description

designated designated for sunbathing by authorities or a property owner
customary popular place for sunbathing
no prohibited, asking for trouble, or unsuitable, for example due to the
natural properties of a place
yes optional, not really useful, mere leisure=sunbathing is enough

A pretty printed version is at the
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/sunbathing#Optional_sunbathing.3D.2A




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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Vɑdɪm
In reply to this post by Vɑdɪm
Considering the responses it may be better to give a more definite criteria
for using this tag.

In this regard the definition of leisure=sunbathing as *any* popular place
suitable for sunbathing looks rather vague. It could be more easily also
used as a trolltag.

So, how is about using leisure=sunbathing only for designated locations?
This also would allow to simplify tagging by avoiding optional sunbathing=*
proposed earlier.

I've amended the proposal accordingly.



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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Warin
On 08/10/19 20:27, Vɑdɪm wrote:

> Considering the responses it may be better to give a more definite criteria
> for using this tag.
>
> In this regard the definition of leisure=sunbathing as *any* popular place
> suitable for sunbathing looks rather vague. It could be more easily also
> used as a trolltag.
>
> So, how is about using leisure=sunbathing only for designated locations?
> This also would allow to simplify tagging by avoiding optional sunbathing=*
> proposed earlier.
>
> I've amended the proposal accordingly.
>
>

Humm.. don't think any place here is 'designated' for sunbathing.

Who has done this 'designation' for sunbathing?


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Vɑdɪm
Does this include places like the one see in the images here [1]
Those depict what we call ligweide or zonneweide in Dutch. Those are
grass areas typically next to a open-air swimming pool.


[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=ligweide&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjytMDY647lAhWSKFAKHQGFDKoQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=2438&bih=1256&dpr=2

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 3:15 PM Vadim Shlyakhov <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> I'm proposing to use leisure=sunbathing to tag an outdoor location
> where people can sunbathe:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sunbathing
>
> Rationale:
>
> There is no currently a standard way to tag an outdoor location
> (probably designated) where people can practice sunbathing. Swimming
> and bathing suggests using landuse=grass to tag a lawn for sunbathing
> which is actually more suitable for a lawn in general than for a
> sunbathing area specifically.
>
> Such locations can be usually found next to swimming and bathing areas
> like beaches and swimming pools, for example at a
> leisure=beach_resort. But they can also be located somewhere else
> there is no accessible beach or even access to the water available.
>
> Regards,
> Vadim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Vɑdɪm
In reply to this post by Warin
Warin wrote
> Humm.. don't think any place here is 'designated' for sunbathing.
>
> Who has done this 'designation' for sunbathing?

Actually there are some. Please have a look at the
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sunbathing#Examples,
specifically at the 1st couple of them (more to come).

If you see there some equipment -- sunshades, etc installed by the park
authority, bathing establishment, et al. then you'd guess it's an area
designated to sunbathing. Probably at some places you'd even find a signpost
or similar.



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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Warin
On 09/10/19 20:58, Vɑdɪm wrote:

> Warin wrote
>> Humm.. don't think any place here is 'designated' for sunbathing.
>>
>> Who has done this 'designation' for sunbathing?
> Actually there are some. Please have a look at the
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sunbathing#Examples,
> specifically at the 1st couple of them (more to come).
>
> If you see there some equipment -- sunshades, etc installed by the park
> authority, bathing establishment, et al. then you'd guess it's an area
> designated to sunbathing. Probably at some places you'd even find a signpost
> or similar.
>

In Australia sunshades are to keep people out of the sun, not for 'sunbathing'.

Poolsides and beaches are used for sunbathing... but have no official 'designation' for sunbathing.

The only designated sunbathing I can find on the web are for nude or top less sunbathing.


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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Vɑdɪm
In reply to this post by Marc Gemis
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 12:21, Marc Gemis [via GIS] wrote:
>
> Does this include places like the one see in the images here [1]
> Those depict what we call ligweide or zonneweide in Dutch. Those are
> grass areas typically next to a open-air swimming pool.
>
>
> [1]
> https://www.google.com/search?q=ligweide&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjytMDY647lAhWSKFAKHQGFDKoQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=2438&bih=1256&dpr=2

It depends if they are really designated for sunbathing by some
authority: the establishment owner, the park, etc. Otherwise, as
pointed out earlier by some people, in some contexts you'd sunbath
nearly everywhere.

It needs to be verifiable somehow. Some sunshades installed, etc.
would be a good sign.

From your link I see a couple of distinctive examples:
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/08/1c/b5/60/ligweide-tussen-de-2.jpg
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0a/b3/42/e5/ligweide-bij-het-strand.jpg

Perhaps it also could be places like at the
http://www.peschici.it/contatore/strutture/output/Foto/5996_9671_189120-20190115-112302.jpg
where leisure=sunbathing would be a part of the leisure=beach_resort.
In this picture you'd see 2 different bathing establishments
(stabilimenti balneari). One of them which is at the foreground also
has a bar, probably some sanitary facilities, etc.



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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Vɑdɪm
In reply to this post by Warin
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 13:39, Warin [via GIS] wrote:

> In Australia sunshades are to keep people out of the sun, not for
> 'sunbathing'.
>
> Poolsides and beaches are used for sunbathing... but have no official
> 'designation' for sunbathing.
>
> The only designated sunbathing I can find on the web are for nude or top
> less sunbathing.

This case is simple one: if there is no place designated for sunbathing then
there in no need to tag it. That's the point.

On the other hand they could install sunshades somewhere even if it's
designated for sunbathing. I've seen some of them.



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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Vɑdɪm
Am Mi., 9. Okt. 2019 um 12:46 Uhr schrieb Vɑdɪm <[hidden email]>:
.... Otherwise, as
pointed out earlier by some people, in some contexts you'd sunbath
nearly everywhere.
...
 
In this picture you'd see 2 different bathing establishments
(stabilimenti balneari). One of them which is at the foreground also
has a bar, probably some sanitary facilities, etc.



what about places where sunbathing is mandatory? Situations in France from 3 years ago come to mind, where burkas and burkinis have been banned from public beaches.
Could this be tagged as "sunbathing=mandatory"? Or should the tags refer to dress code?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Warin
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 11:40, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Australia sunshades are to keep people out of the sun, not for 'sunbathing'.

+1

Actually, it's true of the rest of the world, too.  You cannot sunbathe under a sunshade.
Therefore sunshades are NOT indicative that an area is for sunbathing.  Maybe, just
maybe, an area designated for sunbathing may have some sunshades for people
who need a little respite.  But an area might have sunshades because it's for people
who wish to sit in the shade in a hot climate.

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Vɑdɪm
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 15:40, Paul Allen [via GIS]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Actually, it's true of the rest of the world, too.  You cannot sunbathe
> under a sunshade.
> Therefore sunshades are NOT indicative that an area is for sunbathing.
>  Maybe, just
> maybe, an area designated for sunbathing may have some sunshades for
> people
> who need a little respite.  But an area might have sunshades because it's
> for people
> who wish to sit in the shade in a hot climate.

There is no any requirement for sunshades in the proposal. Albeit I think
they could be used as one of the indicators. Please have a look at the
examples.




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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Paul Allen
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 14:16, Vɑdɪm <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is no any requirement for sunshades in the proposal.

Good.
 
Albeit I think they could be used as one of the indicators.

Yeah, in the same way that a building is an indicator of an outdoor running track and
a railway line is an indicator of a footpath.  My whole point is that sunshades are NOT
indicators of sunbathing areas because sunshades can often be found in areas that
are not for sunbathing.  If your proposal stated that sunbathing areas may also have
some sunshades that would be OK; if your proposal states that sunshades indicate
a sunbathing area that would be nonsensical.  I'm not convinced your proposal is
useful anyway, so would probably abstain, but if your proposal says that sunshades
are indicative of sunbathing areas I will definitely vote against it.

--
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing

Vɑdɪm
Paul Allen wrote
> On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 14:16, Vɑdɪm &lt;

> vadp.devl@

> &gt; wrote:
>  I'm not convinced your
> proposal is
> useful anyway, so would probably abstain, but if your proposal says that
> sunshades
> are indicative of sunbathing areas I will definitely vote against it.

Please help yourself, read the proposal.

As for sunshades (or parasoles), they are used by sunbathers en masse, in
particular to cast a shadow on the face.




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