Feature Proposal - Voting - Military Bases

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

As mentioned, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Military_bases is now open for voting.

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[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 2 Jan 2021 at 10:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

As mentioned, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Military_bases is now open for voting.

Voting is still open for another couple of days if you haven't already done so, but would like to.

Incidentally, I just spotted a couple of comments that had been raised with voting. Sorry, but I didn't get any notification of your votes or comments, so have only just seen them, but have now responded on the talk page.

Thanks

Graeme

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[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

It gives me great pleasure to advise that voting closed with a result of 18 yes, 6 no = 75% approval, so the proposal is accepted.

Thank you all for your support & valuable comments. Those who expressed concerns, please don't worry, I will be taking them into consideration during clean-up & creating the actual page.

One thing with regard to the vote did concern me though.

I noticed that two of the No votes came from people with no User or Talk pages (& yes, I know they aren't required - I only created my own a few weeks ago!), however, it also appears that neither of these people have ever mapped in OSM?

I saw reference recently with regard to names being created purely for voting purposes in the past, so it appears this may still be happening?

Is there anybody that this should be raised with, the DWG perhaps?

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[António Madeira]

Going back to a previous talk here, I'm all in favour of only allowing voting to real OSM accounts, preferably with a minimum number of edits.

Às 20:44 de 16/01/2021, Graeme Fitzpatrick escreveu:

It gives me great pleasure to advise that voting closed with a result of 18 yes, 6 no = 75% approval, so the proposal is accepted.

Thank you all for your support & valuable comments. Those who expressed concerns, please don't worry, I will be taking them into consideration during clean-up & creating the actual page.

One thing with regard to the vote did concern me though.

I noticed that two of the No votes came from people with no User or Talk pages (& yes, I know they aren't required - I only created my own a few weeks ago!), however, it also appears that neither of these people have ever mapped in OSM?

I saw reference recently with regard to names being created purely for voting purposes in the past, so it appears this may still be happening?

Is there anybody that this should be raised with, the DWG perhaps?

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[Joseph Eisenberg]

Re: " two of the No votes came from people with no User or Talk pages ...  it also appears that neither of these people have ever mapped in OSM"

That's not certain. There is no requirement to create the same username when mapping and for the wiki.

Re: concerns -

I hope we can clarify which sorts of landuse=military should NOT use this tag. If that's done I will be perfectly happy with it. 

I would suggest that the description should be taken as AND requirements, not AND/OR:

"A military base is a facility, directly owned and operated by or for the military or one of its branches, which houses military equipment and personnel and facilitates training and operations"

Certainly a facility which houses military equipment AND, personnel, AND is used for training AND operations is certainly a base.

The issue is what to do with a landuse=military that only houses military equipment (e.g. a chemical weapons storage facility), or which is only used for training but does not have permanent housing or operations facilities. I think other tags should be created for these sort of places, and military=base should be limited to the fully-developed facilities that have all those requirements.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 3:46 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

It gives me great pleasure to advise that voting closed with a result of 18 yes, 6 no = 75% approval, so the proposal is accepted.

Thank you all for your support & valuable comments. Those who expressed concerns, please don't worry, I will be taking them into consideration during clean-up & creating the actual page.

One thing with regard to the vote did concern me though.

I noticed that two of the No votes came from people with no User or Talk pages (& yes, I know they aren't required - I only created my own a few weeks ago!), however, it also appears that neither of these people have ever mapped in OSM?

I saw reference recently with regard to names being created purely for voting purposes in the past, so it appears this may still be happening?

Is there anybody that this should be raised with, the DWG perhaps?

Thanks

Graeme

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[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 7:19 PM António Madeira <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm all in favour of only allowing voting to real OSM accounts

Would the community support a change to the yes/no/abstain templates, to add a parameter where someone might specify their OSM username? 

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Jan 17, 2021, 00:44 by [hidden email]:

I noticed that two of the No votes came from people with no User or Talk pages (& yes, I know they aren't required - I only created my own a few weeks ago!), however, it also appears that neither of these people have ever mapped in OSM?

Have anyone asked them about their OSM accounts used for mapping?

Via user talk page or via comment on vote page?

If it is not recommended already we should recommend to use

- the same username on wiki and for OSM user account (much better solution)

- or create user page on wiki that mentions OSM user name and

add link to Wiki account on their OSM user profile (to avoid someone

just pointing at random OSM mapper)

Ideally the same account would work for both OSM mapping and

for OSM WIki, but we need some workaround for now.

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[stevea]

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 7:19 PM António Madeira <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm all in favour of only allowing voting to real OSM accounts
> Would the community support a change to the yes/no/abstain templates, to add a parameter where someone might specify their OSM username?

FWIW, I support this.  I get annoyed by “red-linked” users I can’t look up or contact — that’s not very OSM-like.  While I deeply respect privacy (and demand it in certain circumstances) as a basic human right, “Open” is our first name.  Votes should have some sense of “secrecy,” but in an open project, that’s a ticklish / difficult thing to achieve the right balance of to please everybody.

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Jan 17, 2021, 11:50 by [hidden email]:

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 7:19 PM António Madeira <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm all in favour of only allowing voting to real OSM accounts

Would the community support a change to the yes/no/abstain templates, to add a parameter where someone might specify their OSM username?

FWIW, I support this. I get annoyed by “red-linked” users I can’t look up or contact — that’s not very OSM-like. While I deeply respect privacy (and demand it in certain circumstances) as a basic human right, “Open” is our first name. Votes should have some sense of “secrecy,” but in an open project, that’s a ticklish / difficult thing to achieve the right balance of to please everybody.

I have no problem with anonymous accounts - but I want voters to have accounts linked

to OSM mapper accounts.

What abut adding to vote template

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting

"Please use wiki account with the same name as acount used for mapping.

If for some reason this is impossible, please add link at your user pages

at OSM Wiki and in your user profile at openstreetmap.org that mentions

accounts which you operate,"

?

Or something similar?

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[dieterdreist]

Am So., 17. Jan. 2021 um 00:46 Uhr schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>:

It gives me great pleasure to advise that voting closed with a result of 18 yes, 6 no = 75% approval, so the proposal is accepted.

maybe even 18 yes and 5 on, because it seems that a reason is required for a no vote (unlike the comment for yes votes, it is not marked as "optional")

 

One thing with regard to the vote did concern me though.

I noticed that two of the No votes came from people with no User or Talk pages (& yes, I know they aren't required - I only created my own a few weeks ago!), however, it also appears that neither of these people have ever mapped in OSM?

The user talk pages (like all wikipages) are automatically created when you write something on them and save. They might not read it though. You do not have to have a user page for voting, nor can anybody tell which wiki account belongs to which osm account (if they use minimum opsec like a different email address for registering, and maybe a VPN or different dynamic IP), nor is there a formal requirement to be otherwise active in OSM in order to participate in the proposal process, although it is also highly unlikely someone without significant interest in OSM would take part in voting. Not a big problem, also because voting is not very important, you can still use or not use a tag that was approved or rejected, and to get a tag established you need more than a positive vote, people must be using it. You must take the hurdle of an initial critical mass, then editors will likely catch up with their presets.

Cheers,

Martin

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[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 at 20:38, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

Have anyone asked them about their OSM accounts used for mapping?

Via user talk page

Doesn't exist! (Although I could create it to ask them if they're real?)

or via comment on vote page?

Both cases I'm talking about, other people (not me!) asked them questions or made a comment in reply, but no response.

If it is not recommended already we should recommend to use

- the same username on wiki and for OSM user account (much better solution)

That's what it should be, with the same login working for both, as well as any mailing-list you want to join.

- or create user page on wiki that mentions OSM user name and

add link to Wiki account on their OSM user profile (to avoid someone

just pointing at random OSM mapper)

You mean for each person, or a "membership list" that has everybody's details on it?

Ideally the same account would work for both OSM mapping and

for OSM WIki, but we need some workaround for now.

Maybe a campaign to ask everybody to create their Users page, including a link to their OSM page, then after "6" months of warning, stop counting votes made by "anonymous" users? (Which I know will go over like the proverbial lead balloon!)

Thanks

Graeme

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[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 at 20:59, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jan 17, 2021, 11:50 by [hidden email]:

FWIW, I support this. I get annoyed by “red-linked” users I can’t look up or contact — that’s not very OSM-like. While I deeply respect privacy (and demand it in certain circumstances) as a basic human right, “Open” is our first name. Votes should have some sense of “secrecy,” but in an open project, that’s a ticklish / difficult thing to achieve the right balance of to please everybody.

I have no problem with anonymous accounts - but I want voters to have accounts linked

to OSM mapper accounts.

Which, if created as an anonymous word eg Fizzie :-), are still private!

(& as I said ^, that same name should also be used on mailing lists)

What abut adding to vote template

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting

"Please use wiki account with the same name as acount used for mapping.

If for some reason this is impossible, please add link at your user pages

at OSM Wiki and in your user profile at openstreetmap.org that mentions

accounts which you operate,"

?

Or something similar?

Yes, that may work

Thanks

Graeme

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Jan 18, 2021, 00:33 by [hidden email]:

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 at 20:38, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

Have anyone asked them about their OSM accounts used for mapping?

Via user talk page

Doesn't exist! (Although I could create it to ask them if they're real?)

Yes, first person commenting on talk page of user/article/category/template creates it.

- or create user page on wiki that mentions OSM user name and

add link to Wiki account on their OSM user profile (to avoid someone

just pointing at random OSM mapper)

You mean for each person, or a "membership list" that has everybody's details on it?

For an individual person, on their user page at Wiki and user page at openstreetmap.org.

Ideally the same account would work for both OSM mapping and

for OSM WIki, but we need some workaround for now.

Maybe a campaign to ask everybody to create their Users page, including a link to their OSM page, then after "6" months of warning, stop counting votes made by "anonymous" users? (Which I know will go over like the proverbial lead balloon!)

6 months sounds like a complete overkill, adding link on user page takes minutes -

and is necessary only if for some reason you have different username.

BTW, this change would be actually introduced by

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/change_vote_counting_rules

that went through RfC with vote starting tomorrow.

I have not noticed it before that such blank accounts without wiki edits

and no corresponding mapping user account are actually active in votes.

I added "Impact" section to make it more explicit

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/change_vote_counting_rules#Impact

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[Joseph Eisenberg]

>>Via user talk page 

>Doesn't exist! (Although I could create it to ask them if they're real?) 

Yes, you can easily create a talk page for any user by clicking on the link and making the page. 

This will notify the user via email which they used to sign up.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 3:35 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 at 20:38, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

Have anyone asked them about their OSM accounts used for mapping?

Via user talk page

Doesn't exist! (Although I could create it to ask them if they're real?)

or via comment on vote page?

Both cases I'm talking about, other people (not me!) asked them questions or made a comment in reply, but no response.

If it is not recommended already we should recommend to use

- the same username on wiki and for OSM user account (much better solution)

That's what it should be, with the same login working for both, as well as any mailing-list you want to join.

- or create user page on wiki that mentions OSM user name and

add link to Wiki account on their OSM user profile (to avoid someone

just pointing at random OSM mapper)

You mean for each person, or a "membership list" that has everybody's details on it?

Ideally the same account would work for both OSM mapping and

for OSM WIki, but we need some workaround for now.

Maybe a campaign to ask everybody to create their Users page, including a link to their OSM page, then after "6" months of warning, stop counting votes made by "anonymous" users? (Which I know will go over like the proverbial lead balloon!)

Thanks

Graeme

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[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 at 10:27, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

Maybe a campaign to ask everybody to create their Users page, including a link to their OSM page, then after "6" months of warning, stop counting votes made by "anonymous" users? (Which I know will go over like the proverbial lead balloon!)

6 months sounds like a complete overkill, adding link on user page takes minutes -

and is necessary only if for some reason you have different username.

I'm trying to avoid the "you didn't tell me that this was happening" complaints! :-)

I have not noticed it before that such blank accounts without wiki edits

and no corresponding mapping user account are actually active in votes.

I noticed your comment "what happened already in one vote that was invalidated after blatant cheating was discovered". That's probably the case that I saw reference to (& now can't find again) where somebody created "a lot" of user names just to vote (No, I think?). When they were investigated by "somebody with power" :-), it was found that the name had been created at 11.21, voted at 11.22, new name at 11.23, voted at 11.24 & so on for 20 (?) users / votes :-(

To be honest, I can't imagine being so offended by a tag that I'd ever go to that much trouble! :-)

On that, who has the right to say "No, that vote is apparently invalid, so it's not being counted"? Me, as the proposer, or would it have to come from much further up the ladder?

Thanks

Graeme

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[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

> On 18 Jan 2021, at 01:27, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 6 months sounds like a complete overkill, adding link on user page takes minutes -


+1, btw, there is a template:
{{User username|dieterdreist|dieterdreist}}

(replace dieterdreist;-) )

Cheers Martin
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Jan 18, 2021, 02:27 by [hidden email]:

On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 at 10:27, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

Maybe a campaign to ask everybody to create their Users page, including a link to their OSM page, then after "6" months of warning, stop counting votes made by "anonymous" users? (Which I know will go over like the proverbial lead balloon!)

6 months sounds like a complete overkill, adding link on user page takes minutes -

and is necessary only if for some reason you have different username.

I'm trying to avoid the "you didn't tell me that this was happening" complaints! :-)

Well, that is why it gets added via a full scale proposal not via discussion on

Talk:Proposal Process

I have not noticed it before that such blank accounts without wiki edits

and no corresponding mapping user account are actually active in votes.

I noticed your comment "what happened already in one vote that was invalidated after blatant cheating was discovered". That's probably the case that I saw reference to (& now can't find again) where somebody created "a lot" of user names just to vote (No, I think?). When they were investigated by "somebody with power" :-), it was found that the name had been created at 11.21, voted at 11.22, new name at 11.23, voted at 11.24 & so on for 20 (?) users / votes :-(

To be honest, I can't imagine being so offended by a tag that I'd ever go to that much trouble! :-)

It was done by supporter of tag that had 0 support from anyone else.

On that, who has the right to say "No, that vote is apparently invalid, so it's not being counted"? Me, as the proposer, or would it have to come from much further up the ladder?

Anyone? Preferably comment during voting would be made to give time to specify their OSM account

and edit Wiki User Page and openstreetmap.org user profile page?

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