Feature Proposal - Voting - Pumping proposal

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Feature Proposal - Voting - Pumping proposal

François Lacombe-2
Hi all

Tonight I'm pleased to announce the start of voting for the tagging proposal about pumps

A lot of comments lead us to an interesting tagging for pumps devices, water wells and wind pumps. Thank you to anyone involved in this review.
Some values are proposed to be deprecated as to classify pumps according to their technologies and capabilities.

Several contributors tested the proposed tags in real conditions and no problem seems to remain.

Feel free to give your opinion until December 3

All the best

François

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Pumping proposal

Tagging mailing list
I am not a fan of deprecating
pump=manual and replacing it with nearly impossible to remember and less clear
mechanical_driver=manual

Also, this proposal deprecates pump=powered without providing replacement

Now to tag this info one is supposed to select value from
reciprocating_solenoid
combustion_engine
electric_motor
cylinder
turbine

and no way to tag equivalent of pump=powered is provided.

Mapper may be uninterested in or unable to get info about technical detail,
but they should be still able to tag info that pump is not manually operated.

Nov 19, 2020, 20:05 by [hidden email]:
Hi all

Tonight I'm pleased to announce the start of voting for the tagging proposal about pumps

A lot of comments lead us to an interesting tagging for pumps devices, water wells and wind pumps. Thank you to anyone involved in this review.
Some values are proposed to be deprecated as to classify pumps according to their technologies and capabilities.

Several contributors tested the proposed tags in real conditions and no problem seems to remain.

Feel free to give your opinion until December 3

All the best

François


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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Pumping proposal

François Lacombe-2
Dear Mateusz,

Proposal goes through different stages and I was proposing simpler driver=* instead of mechanical_driver. Comments have been made about the possible confusion with human drivers driving cars.
However, drivers aren't specific to pumps at all.

Current pump=* doesn't deal with pumps but with water wells and possible motors/engines installed to get water. I was confused by this in the very beginning.
pump=powered mixes electric motors and gasoline engines which are way different. Situations may occur with emergency services coming with gasoline to run an electric motor for instance.
The opportunity (not an obligation) to replace this particular value with more detailed and useful information is the goal of the proposal.

One possible way to state the isn't manually operable is to use handle=no without any mechanical_driver (waiting to be defined by knowledgeable people)

All the best

François

Le ven. 20 nov. 2020 à 12:22, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I am not a fan of deprecating
pump=manual and replacing it with nearly impossible to remember and less clear
mechanical_driver=manual

Also, this proposal deprecates pump=powered without providing replacement

Now to tag this info one is supposed to select value from
reciprocating_solenoid
combustion_engine
electric_motor
cylinder
turbine

and no way to tag equivalent of pump=powered is provided.

Mapper may be uninterested in or unable to get info about technical detail,
but they should be still able to tag info that pump is not manually operated.

Nov 19, 2020, 20:05 by [hidden email]:
Hi all

Tonight I'm pleased to announce the start of voting for the tagging proposal about pumps

A lot of comments lead us to an interesting tagging for pumps devices, water wells and wind pumps. Thank you to anyone involved in this review.
Some values are proposed to be deprecated as to classify pumps according to their technologies and capabilities.

Several contributors tested the proposed tags in real conditions and no problem seems to remain.

Feel free to give your opinion until December 3

All the best

François

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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Pumping proposal

Joseph Eisenberg
On the Talk page, the proposal author has now ignored two different requests to change the new pump=values to a different key like pump_mechanism, which would allow the continued use of pump=manual and pump=powered.

The author claims: "I find current tagging meaningless (with all due respect to people who created it in the past)"  

This is absolutely disrespectful to the current mappers using this tag to specify the type of water well found in lower-income countries.

Perhaps you have never lived in a place where people get their drinking and washing water from public or semi-public wells. In these places it is quite important to know if a well is just a hole in the ground where you need to use a bucket and rope to draw out water (pump=no), or if there is a mechanical pump handle which you can physically operate, with some amount of force, to pump out bursts of water (pump=manual). 

And the other type of well is "a well that is attached to pipes and a motorized pump", which is usually powered by electricity but sometimes by a diesel motor. In this type of well you don't have to use any physical effort at all, you just flip a switch or open a faucet and water comes out - as most Westerners are accustomed to enjoy in their own homes. 

But you will need electricity or fuel to operate it. So usually a man_made=water_well + pump=powered is much more convenient, but when the power goes out or there is no fuel, it can be nearly useless, while a pump=manual is now much more helpful. 

I am quite frustrated that this proposal has gone forward even though these concerns were brought up months ago on the Talk page.

-- Joseph Eisenberg


On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 4:23 AM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Mateusz,

Proposal goes through different stages and I was proposing simpler driver=* instead of mechanical_driver. Comments have been made about the possible confusion with human drivers driving cars.
However, drivers aren't specific to pumps at all.

Current pump=* doesn't deal with pumps but with water wells and possible motors/engines installed to get water. I was confused by this in the very beginning.
pump=powered mixes electric motors and gasoline engines which are way different. Situations may occur with emergency services coming with gasoline to run an electric motor for instance.
The opportunity (not an obligation) to replace this particular value with more detailed and useful information is the goal of the proposal.

One possible way to state the isn't manually operable is to use handle=no without any mechanical_driver (waiting to be defined by knowledgeable people)

All the best

François

Le ven. 20 nov. 2020 à 12:22, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I am not a fan of deprecating
pump=manual and replacing it with nearly impossible to remember and less clear
mechanical_driver=manual

Also, this proposal deprecates pump=powered without providing replacement

Now to tag this info one is supposed to select value from
reciprocating_solenoid
combustion_engine
electric_motor
cylinder
turbine

and no way to tag equivalent of pump=powered is provided.

Mapper may be uninterested in or unable to get info about technical detail,
but they should be still able to tag info that pump is not manually operated.

Nov 19, 2020, 20:05 by [hidden email]:
Hi all

Tonight I'm pleased to announce the start of voting for the tagging proposal about pumps

A lot of comments lead us to an interesting tagging for pumps devices, water wells and wind pumps. Thank you to anyone involved in this review.
Some values are proposed to be deprecated as to classify pumps according to their technologies and capabilities.

Several contributors tested the proposed tags in real conditions and no problem seems to remain.

Feel free to give your opinion until December 3

All the best

François

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Pumping proposal

Joseph Eisenberg
The current tagging of man_made=water_well + pump=no/manual/powered is currently used by the HDM style, featured as the "Humanitarian" map layer on Openstreetmap.org, to determine what sort of icon should be shown for a water well. Examples:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5768737664#map=17/-8.54734/122.04898&layers=H - well with powered pump (and you can see 3 more nearby, one for each "dusun" or small "neighborhood" in this village)

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5768453092#map=18/-8.74465/122.07912&layers=H - lots of wells with no pump, represented by a bucket, also one powered well in this village. 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6449466014#map=18/14.52455/121.05865&layers=H - water well with a manual pump in a school yard - also another one in the school to the east. 

-- Joseph Eisenberg



On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 9:19 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
On the Talk page, the proposal author has now ignored two different requests to change the new pump=values to a different key like pump_mechanism, which would allow the continued use of pump=manual and pump=powered.

The author claims: "I find current tagging meaningless (with all due respect to people who created it in the past)"  

This is absolutely disrespectful to the current mappers using this tag to specify the type of water well found in lower-income countries.

Perhaps you have never lived in a place where people get their drinking and washing water from public or semi-public wells. In these places it is quite important to know if a well is just a hole in the ground where you need to use a bucket and rope to draw out water (pump=no), or if there is a mechanical pump handle which you can physically operate, with some amount of force, to pump out bursts of water (pump=manual). 

And the other type of well is "a well that is attached to pipes and a motorized pump", which is usually powered by electricity but sometimes by a diesel motor. In this type of well you don't have to use any physical effort at all, you just flip a switch or open a faucet and water comes out - as most Westerners are accustomed to enjoy in their own homes. 

But you will need electricity or fuel to operate it. So usually a man_made=water_well + pump=powered is much more convenient, but when the power goes out or there is no fuel, it can be nearly useless, while a pump=manual is now much more helpful. 

I am quite frustrated that this proposal has gone forward even though these concerns were brought up months ago on the Talk page.

-- Joseph Eisenberg


On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 4:23 AM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Mateusz,

Proposal goes through different stages and I was proposing simpler driver=* instead of mechanical_driver. Comments have been made about the possible confusion with human drivers driving cars.
However, drivers aren't specific to pumps at all.

Current pump=* doesn't deal with pumps but with water wells and possible motors/engines installed to get water. I was confused by this in the very beginning.
pump=powered mixes electric motors and gasoline engines which are way different. Situations may occur with emergency services coming with gasoline to run an electric motor for instance.
The opportunity (not an obligation) to replace this particular value with more detailed and useful information is the goal of the proposal.

One possible way to state the isn't manually operable is to use handle=no without any mechanical_driver (waiting to be defined by knowledgeable people)

All the best

François

Le ven. 20 nov. 2020 à 12:22, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I am not a fan of deprecating
pump=manual and replacing it with nearly impossible to remember and less clear
mechanical_driver=manual

Also, this proposal deprecates pump=powered without providing replacement

Now to tag this info one is supposed to select value from
reciprocating_solenoid
combustion_engine
electric_motor
cylinder
turbine

and no way to tag equivalent of pump=powered is provided.

Mapper may be uninterested in or unable to get info about technical detail,
but they should be still able to tag info that pump is not manually operated.

Nov 19, 2020, 20:05 by [hidden email]:
Hi all

Tonight I'm pleased to announce the start of voting for the tagging proposal about pumps

A lot of comments lead us to an interesting tagging for pumps devices, water wells and wind pumps. Thank you to anyone involved in this review.
Some values are proposed to be deprecated as to classify pumps according to their technologies and capabilities.

Several contributors tested the proposed tags in real conditions and no problem seems to remain.

Feel free to give your opinion until December 3

All the best

François

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Tagging mailing list
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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Pumping proposal

François Lacombe-2
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Joseph,

It's true proposed tagging deprecates the current pump=* definition according to rationale and wishes to use the pump word in a more appropriate way.

However, it would be ok to define mechanical_driver=powered for situations when mappers aren't able to determine a more precise value.
That would preserve the current distinction made on HDM render with mechanical_driver=manual/powered and offer possibilities to define a more detailed knowledge.

Giving more details about pumping capabilities of water wells would cause upgrading work for renders anyway: they have to support more pump=* values or drop it in favour of mechanical_driver=*
I now agree on the ability to state 'this water well has powered pumping capabilities' in case of no additional knowledge but don't get why limiting knowledge to manual/powered would be desirable.

All the best

François

Le sam. 21 nov. 2020 à 06:24, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
On the Talk page, the proposal author has now ignored two different requests to change the new pump=values to a different key like pump_mechanism, which would allow the continued use of pump=manual and pump=powered.

The author claims: "I find current tagging meaningless (with all due respect to people who created it in the past)"  

This is absolutely disrespectful to the current mappers using this tag to specify the type of water well found in lower-income countries.

Perhaps you have never lived in a place where people get their drinking and washing water from public or semi-public wells. In these places it is quite important to know if a well is just a hole in the ground where you need to use a bucket and rope to draw out water (pump=no), or if there is a mechanical pump handle which you can physically operate, with some amount of force, to pump out bursts of water (pump=manual). 

And the other type of well is "a well that is attached to pipes and a motorized pump", which is usually powered by electricity but sometimes by a diesel motor. In this type of well you don't have to use any physical effort at all, you just flip a switch or open a faucet and water comes out - as most Westerners are accustomed to enjoy in their own homes. 

But you will need electricity or fuel to operate it. So usually a man_made=water_well + pump=powered is much more convenient, but when the power goes out or there is no fuel, it can be nearly useless, while a pump=manual is now much more helpful. 

I am quite frustrated that this proposal has gone forward even though these concerns were brought up months ago on the Talk page.

-- Joseph Eisenberg


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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Pumping proposal

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

On 22. Nov 2020, at 02:32, François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's true proposed tagging deprecates the current pump=* definition according to rationale and wishes to use the pump word in a more appropriate way.


this would deprecate around 20k pump values describing a pump type, plus 15k yes/no.

Looking at the no-values, 23% are not in combination with man_made https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/pump=no#combinations
i.e. this is also used on other objects to state buildings there is no pump.
I would also suggest you modify your proposal in a way that it is compatible with the current use of the pump tag

Cheers Martin 

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Pumping proposal

Tagging mailing list
Given the number exposed here by Martin, and the fact that there is a few established data consumers, I think that preserving the pump tag as it is now and refine it with another tag would be a good idea indeed.
Yves

Le 22 novembre 2020 02:58:07 GMT+01:00, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> a écrit :


sent from a phone

On 22. Nov 2020, at 02:32, François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's true proposed tagging deprecates the current pump=* definition according to rationale and wishes to use the pump word in a more appropriate way.


this would deprecate around 20k pump values describing a pump type, plus 15k yes/no.

Looking at the no-values, 23% are not in combination with man_made https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/pump=no#combinations
i.e. this is also used on other objects to state buildings there is no pump.
I would also suggest you modify your proposal in a way that it is compatible with the current use of the pump tag

Cheers Martin 

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Pumping proposal

François Lacombe-2
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Hi Martin, Yves

Usage is a good point, thank you.

Le dim. 22 nov. 2020 à 03:01, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> a écrit :
this would deprecate around 20k pump values describing a pump type, plus 15k yes/no.

OSM counts 143k water_wells according to taginfo for man_made=water_well.
There are 21k pump occurrences associated with those wells, which means 86% of them still wait to be completed with pump information.
I don't blame anyone for not completing wells quick enough. 20k occurrences should be put into perspective of the global feature population.

My small and domain-focused experience shows that such a change could encourage mappers to increase a lot the amount of described features more quickly.
tower:type=suspension january 2013 => september 2019 : 25k occurrences peak
tower:type=anchor january 2013 => september 2019 : 13k occurrences peak
line_attachment=suspension (exact replacement) july 2019 => december 2020 : 23k occurrences
line_attachment=anchor (exact replacement) july 2019 => december 2020 : 21k occurrences

Like many other successful moves done by dozens of volunteers.
 
Looking at the no-values, 23% are not in combination with man_made https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/pump=no#combinations
i.e. this is also used on other objects to state buildings there is no pump.

It's a good point to mention: pump word is actually used elsewhere, which sounds incorrect according current wiki I intend to extend
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:pump
requires : man_made=water_well

All the best

François

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