Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

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Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

Hakuch
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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

Hakuch
Because there some comments about the "removing", please mind this line
of the proposal:

what this proposal wants to do if successful
- add a text to Key:name that discourages from using this tags, even if
they exist in database. A link to this proposal will explain the reasons.

so of course, I want to document, that this tags exist. But I want to
mention, that the other variant should be used.

greets




On 25.01.2016 01:22, Hakuch wrote:

> The voting for the proposal "Remove suffixed name-tags from wiki" has
> started. Please involve with your vote:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Remove_suffixed_name-tags_from_wiki
>
> find discussion threads here:
>
> http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=53223 (german)
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Removing-name-1-and-alt-name-1-from-Wiki-tp5864465.html
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Please-don-t-think-name-1-tags-are-errors-tp5864875.html
>
>
>
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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

dieterdreist

2016-01-25 12:05 GMT+01:00 Hakuch <[hidden email]>:
Because there some comments about the "removing", please mind this line
of the proposal:

what this proposal wants to do if successful
- add a text to Key:name that discourages from using this tags, even if
they exist in database. A link to this proposal will explain the reasons.

so of course, I want to document, that this tags exist. But I want to
mention, that the other variant should be used.


you should rephrase the proposal itself to make this clearer.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

Hakuch
On 25.01.2016 12:10, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> 2016-01-25 12:05 GMT+01:00 Hakuch <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Because there some comments about the "removing", please mind this line
>> of the proposal:
>>
>> what this proposal wants to do if successful
>> - add a text to Key:name that discourages from using this tags, even if
>> they exist in database. A link to this proposal will explain the reasons.
>>
>> so of course, I want to document, that this tags exist. But I want to
>> mention, that the other variant should be used.
>>
>
>
> you should rephrase the proposal itself to make this clearer.
you are right, that was a mistake from the beginning. The hard words of
"removing" in the title are softened in the proposal, but that might be
missed.

Because I think its bad try to change name of propoosal, I put a note in
the top

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

Mateusz Konieczny-2
In reply to this post by Hakuch
On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 01:22:25 +0100
Hakuch <[hidden email]> wrote:

Note that this proposal is not merely about discouraging
name_1/al_name_2 etc - it explicitly encourages another bad idea:
"alt_name can be used with semicolons" and in general it replaces
really bad idea with terrible "Semicolons instead of _1 suffixes".

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

Colin Smale

Indeed, it is filling one hole with another. So how ARE we going to represent multi-valued attributes from real life in an OSM context?

I am not detecting much progress on this, just negativity around all current attempts at doing it.

 

//colin

On 2016-01-26 17:21, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 01:22:25 +0100
Hakuch <[hidden email]> wrote:

The voting for the proposal "Remove suffixed name-tags from wiki" has
started. Please involve with your vote:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Remove_suffixed_name-tags_from_wiki

find discussion threads here:

http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=53223 (german)
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Removing-name-1-and-alt-name-1-from-Wiki-tp5864465.html
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Please-don-t-think-name-1-tags-are-errors-tp5864875.html

Note that this proposal is not merely about discouraging
name_1/al_name_2 etc - it explicitly encourages another bad idea:
"alt_name can be used with semicolons" and in general it replaces
really bad idea with terrible "Semicolons instead of _1 suffixes".

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

Eric Gillet
2016-01-26 17:52 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale <[hidden email]>:

So how ARE we going to represent multi-valued attributes from real life in an OSM context?


I believe that if a multi-value tag system is added to the OSM API, the migration would be easier from semicolumns multi-values than from _N suffixes.

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

Mateusz Konieczny-2
In reply to this post by Colin Smale
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:52:13 +0100
Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Indeed, it is filling one hole with another. So how ARE we going to
> represent multi-valued attributes from real life in an OSM context?
>
> I am not detecting much progress on this, just negativity around all
> current attempts at doing it.

In my experience name, name:en, old_name, alt_name, alt_name:ru etc etc
etc were always sufficient. An example where multivalue names are
truly necessary would be interesting.

In case of ref on highways multivalues are necessary and ; separation
is accepted standard (with support among at least some data consumers).

In case of surface tag multivalues are evil and not necessary, despite
initial impressions.

It depends on situation.

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

Andy Townsend
On 26/01/2016 19:16, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> In my experience name, name:en, old_name, alt_name, alt_name:ru etc
> etc etc were always sufficient. An example where multivalue names are
> truly necessary would be interesting.

Here's a brief summary of where I think that what we have now for names
isn't "always sufficient":

There are places that have two or more names in different languages.  
One is not more important that the other; they're exactly equivalent.  
We don't have a way to represent that currently - only to store a list
of names (in one format or another).  We only have one "name" tag, and
in some places the local community have decided on the
"Londonderry/Derry" approach because there is no correct answer to which
of two (or more) local languages should go there.  Even then there's
still the decision of which one to put first :)

There's also the "Abergavenny problem" (a term I invented the last time
it came up on the lists) - there are places with multiple languages
which are in local use, and also names in other languages not in local
use (often but not always transliterations to a non-Latin alphabet).  We
don't currently have a good way of differentiating between those two sets.

We also have the potential problem that if we stored every translated /
transliterated name into every one of ethnologue.com's languages we'd
have an unfeasibly large amount of data per place - it would make any
data manipulation operations with OSM data significantly more
cumbersome.  In answer to that last problem someone usually says
"wikidata" but we don't yet have a tried, tested and scaleable way of
combining data from wikidata with data from OSM on the fly.

Some more of the issues associated with multiple languages in a place
were discussed in the Algerian forum:

http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=31333

There were issues raised there that I hadn't previously considered,
including combining a left-to-right and right-to-left name in a
"Londonderry/Derry"-style name, and what happens when the most widely
spoken language and the official language aren't the same.

Cheers,

Andy (SomeoneElse)



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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

Tod Fitch
In reply to this post by Eric Gillet

On Jan 26, 2016, at 9:24 AM, √Čric Gillet <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-01-26 17:52 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale <[hidden email]>:

So how ARE we going to represent multi-valued attributes from real life in an OSM context?


I believe that if a multi-value tag system is added to the OSM API, the migration would be easier from semicolumns multi-values than from _N suffixes.


+1 to both of these

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

moltonel 3x Combo
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-2
tOn 26/01/2016, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
> In my experience name, name:en, old_name, alt_name, alt_name:ru etc etc
> etc were always sufficient. An example where multivalue names are
> truly necessary would be interesting.

Andy has already given some good answers and I've rambled for too long
on the subject, but since you ask again I'll dig up
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5257865 again, which cannot be
satisfyingly tagged with foo_name variations. Its name_1 and name_2
tags have absolutely no semantic difference, so puting them in
foo_name and bar_name would be wrong. In fact even its name tag is
semantically at the same level as the other two.

The local knowledge comes from my in-laws, who lived there for as far
as they can trace back.

You might want to brush this example off as too rare to bother about,
but I've stumbled uppon places with many names before. I used to
agonize over the decision of what to put in which foo_name tag (alt
and loc being the most likely candidates), with the result that I was
assigning semantic value ("this name is only used locally, this one is
a bit broader") when there was actually none. I'm sure I'm not the
only one in this situation. We've trained mappers to always prefer
foo_name but this is often wrong.

We need multi-valued keys to accurately describe the world. Until the
OSM data model supports that natively, we make do with either the
suffix or the semicolon hack (plus some niche and one-off solutions).
They are not great but they are necessary, embrace them. And while
you're at it, recognize the cases where semicolons are problematic and
embrace suffied tags.

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

dieterdreist

2016-01-27 2:14 GMT+01:00 moltonel 3x Combo <[hidden email]>:
Andy has already given some good answers and I've rambled for too long
on the subject, but since you ask again I'll dig up
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5257865 again, which cannot be
satisfyingly tagged with foo_name variations. Its name_1 and name_2
tags have absolutely no semantic difference, so puting them in
foo_name and bar_name would be wrong. In fact even its name tag is
semantically at the same level as the other two.



I can hardly believe you don't have official versions of names for administrative areas in France, so the current tagging definitely is improvable (because you cannot see which is this official name by looking at the current tags).

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

Marc Gemis
On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> can hardly believe you don't have official versions of names for
> administrative areas in France, so the current tagging definitely is
> improvable (because you cannot see which is this official name by looking at
> the current tags).

France ? The example boundary is in Ireland....

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

dieterdreist

2016-01-27 10:39 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
France ? The example boundary is in Ireland....


;-)
anyway, s/France/Ireland/ and the statement remains. I bet also the Irish have official names for their administrative units.

Cheers,
Martin



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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

moltonel 3x Combo


On 27 January 2016 10:09:51 GMT+00:00, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>2016-01-27 10:39 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
>
>> France ? The example boundary is in Ireland....
>>
>
>
>;-)
>anyway, s/France/Ireland/ and the statement remains. I bet also the
>Irish
>have official names for their administrative units.

Official names are *way tiddyer* in France  ;)

As stated many times already, in this example 'name' comes from an ooc map (and the names in there were forcefully assigned by the british rule, in case you're hungry for another level of name-correctness debate...), and both 'name_1' and 'name_2' come from a local who lived there for generations. I had never come accross the 'levallyroe' spelling/pronunciation before, but it's on the ooc map and census records, so I guess that makes it official and that's why I chose it for the 'name' tag. But the other two spellings are absolutely at the same level. They have the same source, with no preference given. The only correct way to store them is as multiple values of the same key.

I'm happy to discuss the tagging of individual objects (including this townland, if you have sources to complement mine), but I'm tired of defending the necessity of multiple values and the fact that foo_name is not always sufficent or more correct.
--
Vincent Dp

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

moltonel 3x Combo
In reply to this post by dieterdreist


On 27 January 2016 09:15:10 GMT+00:00, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>the current tagging definitely is
>improvable (because you cannot see which is this official
> name by looking at the current tags).

If I were to add a tag for the official name, we'd end up with name=x official_name=x name_1=y name_2=z. If your point is that official_name should be tagged even when it is the same as the name... I'll stop debating and at best grab some pop corn.
--
Vincent Dp

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Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Remove name_1 and alt_name_1 from wiki)

markus schnalke
In reply to this post by moltonel 3x Combo
Hoi.

To me it seems as if we suffer much from discussing too many aspects
at once, and that prevents us from finding solutions.

I see these separate problems:

1) Are multi-values necessary? -- I don't see general agreement on this.
   They might even be only necessary for a few explicit corner cases.
   This makes it a different situation, but currently it is not clear
   what the situation is, and so we're discussion with different
   assumptions.

2) OSM has no real/good technical approach for multi-values. Both
   existing variants to represent them (semicolons and number-suffixes)
   are bad. (Here we seem to agree.) If there is positive agreement on
   the question in (1), then a *real* solution for (2) should be found,
   instead of discussing which of the bad solutions is better.

3) The iD editor and some imports automatically create insensible (i.e.
   motivated by technical ease) multi-values. This is an issue unrelated
   to the former two. It should thus be solved independently.

4) How should the current use of name_1 & Co. be documented in the Wiki?


It might be constructive to discuss these aspects one by one.


meillo


P.S.
One might realize, that the vote only (or mostly) goes for aspect (4),
and that all the other three aspects are still open to be discussed.

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Discussion about Multivalued Keys

Colin Smale

Dear all,

I have created a proposal page as a channel for constructive debate about the way forward. I hope you will all take a look and participate!

Although this subject is a bit more than just a proposal for a new tag, I have used the same template. I will try and flesh it out a bit more in the coming days, but everyone is of course welcome to add their stuff.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Multivalued_Keys

 

--colin

 


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Re: Discussion about Multivalued Keys

Marc Gemis
As real world examples:

* cuisine
* ref on Street cabinets
* destinations

?

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I have created a proposal page as a channel for constructive debate about
> the way forward. I hope you will all take a look and participate!
>
> Although this subject is a bit more than just a proposal for a new tag, I
> have used the same template. I will try and flesh it out a bit more in the
> coming days, but everyone is of course welcome to add their stuff.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Multivalued_Keys
>
>
>
> --colin
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: Discussion about Multivalued Keys

Colin Smale

Excellent, thanks. I have to admit I don't know much about refs on street cabinets... Could you maybe illustrate this with some examples?

 

--colin

On 2016-01-27 16:26, Marc Gemis wrote:

As real world examples:

* cuisine
* ref on Street cabinets
* destinations

?

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear all,

I have created a proposal page as a channel for constructive debate about
the way forward. I hope you will all take a look and participate!

Although this subject is a bit more than just a proposal for a new tag, I
have used the same template. I will try and flesh it out a bit more in the
coming days, but everyone is of course welcome to add their stuff.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Multivalued_Keys



--colin




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