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Ferry frequency

Richard Fairhurst
I'd like to tag approximate ferry frequency in OSM. It's important for
routing: something that runs every 10 minutes is likely to be useful for
routing purposes; something that runs once a day, less so.

Before I go ahead and JFDI, has anyone done this / seen this done, and
if so, what tags did you use? The frequency= tag appears to be denoted
in Hertz which is not so useful for a ferry. ;)

cheers
Richard


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Re: Ferry frequency

dieterdreist



2013/10/3 Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]>
I'd like to tag approximate ferry frequency in OSM. It's important for routing: something that runs every 10 minutes is likely to be useful for routing purposes; something that runs once a day, less so.

Before I go ahead and JFDI, has anyone done this / seen this done, and if so, what tags did you use? The frequency= tag appears to be denoted in Hertz which is not so useful for a ferry. ;)


maybe you can use service_times? It uses the opening_hours syntax and I invented it originally for churches, but it might fit here as well ;-)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: Ferry frequency

Richard Mann-2
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
I use frequency=6 for 6 buses per hour as a tag on a bus route relation. And journeys=3 for 3 services a day.
 
Interpreting such tags is always likely to be context-sensitive
 
Richard
 
 


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 10:31 PM, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd like to tag approximate ferry frequency in OSM. It's important for routing: something that runs every 10 minutes is likely to be useful for routing purposes; something that runs once a day, less so.

Before I go ahead and JFDI, has anyone done this / seen this done, and if so, what tags did you use? The frequency= tag appears to be denoted in Hertz which is not so useful for a ferry. ;)

cheers
Richard


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Re: Ferry frequency

John F. Eldredge
Richard Mann <[hidden email]> wrote:
I use frequency=6 for 6 buses per hour as a tag on a bus route relation. And journeys=3 for 3 services a day.
 
Interpreting such tags is always likely to be context-sensitive
 
Richard
 
 


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 10:31 PM, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd like to tag approximate ferry frequency in OSM. It's important for routing: something that runs every 10 minutes is likely to be useful for routing purposes; something that runs once a day, less so.

Before I go ahead and JFDI, has anyone done this / seen this done, and if so, what tags did you use? The frequency= tag appears to be denoted in Hertz which is not so useful for a ferry. ;)

cheers
Richard


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So, are you saying that you use frequency only for buses that run at least once per hour, and otherwise use journeys instead?

--
John F. Eldredge -- [hidden email]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: Ferry frequency

Richard Mann-2
Yes, that is how I use it - frequency if there's 1/hour or better, journeys if it's less than that.


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 11:35 PM, John F. Eldredge <[hidden email]> wrote:
Richard Mann <[hidden email]> wrote:
I use frequency=6 for 6 buses per hour as a tag on a bus route relation. And journeys=3 for 3 services a day.
 
Interpreting such tags is always likely to be context-sensitive
 
Richard
 
 


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 10:31 PM, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd like to tag approximate ferry frequency in OSM. It's important for routing: something that runs every 10 minutes is likely to be useful for routing purposes; something that runs once a day, less so.

Before I go ahead and JFDI, has anyone done this / seen this done, and if so, what tags did you use? The frequency= tag appears to be denoted in Hertz which is not so useful for a ferry. ;)

cheers
Richard


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So, are you saying that you use frequency only for buses that run at least once per hour, and otherwise use journeys instead?

--
John F. Eldredge -- [hidden email]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: Ferry frequency

Janko Mihelić
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
I have been talking about this on the transit mailing list[1]. I formed a tag that gives us a number of journeys in any given period. It is very flexible, and can be simple and complex.

For example, if we want to say there are 3 journeys a day, we would simply have:
public_transport:frequency=d3

3 journeys an hour:
public_transport:frequency=h3

only runs on weekdays:
public_transport:frequency=Mo-Fr

it's a night line:
public_transport:frequency=23:00-06:00

and then we can mix them:
on weekdays it has 30 journeys a day, first one at 8:00, and last one at 23:00. On Saturday it has 10 journeys, first one at 8:00, last one at 15:00:
public_transport:frequency=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 d30; Sa 08:00-15:00 d10

when we have only 3 journeys a day, at 12:00, 16:00 and 20:00:
public_transport:frequency= 12:00-16:00-20:00 d3

I thought it would be used along the public_transport scheme, but I don't see why we couldn't put it on a route=ferry way.

I should really put this on a wiki proposal.

Janko

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-transit/2012-February/001578.html


2013/10/3 Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]>
I'd like to tag approximate ferry frequency in OSM. It's important for routing: something that runs every 10 minutes is likely to be useful for routing purposes; something that runs once a day, less so.

Before I go ahead and JFDI, has anyone done this / seen this done, and if so, what tags did you use? The frequency= tag appears to be denoted in Hertz which is not so useful for a ferry. ;)

cheers
Richard


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Re: Ferry frequency

Richard Fairhurst
Thanks all - some great suggestions. To clarify, I'm not looking to put detailed timetable information in (that properly belongs in a GTFS feed or somesuch, not OSM), just a broad-brush indication to help routing engines.

Based on Richard M's and Janko's suggestions, I'm tempted to use:

    journeys=4/hour
    journeys=2     or    journeys=2/day
    journeys=on_demand

to indicate, respectively, four journeys in each direction per day; two journeys in each direction per day; and the sort of ferry where you go to the bank, wave the ferryman down, and he comes to take you across.

That avoids any confusion about "frequency" (a tram might have both meanings!) and is simple both for the mapper and for the consumer.

I note there's also a reservation= tag (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:reservation) which will be useful for ferries where booking in advance is required.

cheers
Richard

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Re: Ferry frequency

sabas88
Duration is also important and currently used by OSRM (although not on relations yet), like http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/176323421

Cheers,
Stefano

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Re: Ferry frequency

Richard Fairhurst
sabas88 wrote:
> Duration is also important and currently used by OSRM

Indeed. I actually edited duration out of my OSRM route profile because it gave misleading results for cycling - the router would often head for the nearest long-distance ferry, since ferries are often quicker than cycling, even if that ferry only ran once a week!

cheers
Richard

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Re: Ferry frequency

Janko Mihelić
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
2013/10/4 Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]>
To clarify, I'm not looking to put
detailed timetable information in (that properly belongs in a GTFS feed or
somesuch, not OSM), just a broad-brush indication to help routing engines.

That's the beauty of it, my proposed tag can be detailed, but doesn't have to be. And I think detailed information can exist in OSM. But that's for some other proposal.

That said, I like the journeys=3/day, 5/hour. If we decide to go with it, I can just replace my 3d and 5h with it.

Janko

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Re: Ferry frequency

John F. Eldredge
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
sabas88 wrote:
Duration is also important and currently used by OSRM

Indeed. I actually edited duration out of my OSRM route profile because it
gave misleading results for cycling - the router would often head for the
nearest long-distance ferry, since ferries are often quicker than cycling,
even if that ferry only ran once a week!

cheers
Richard





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That brings up an issue for routing in general, not just cycle-routing. The routing algorithm needs to take into account the day of the week, and what time it will be when you reach a point with time-dependent restrictions, or only intermittent service (such as a bus or ferry).

--
John F. Eldredge -- [hidden email]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: Ferry frequency

ael-3
In reply to this post by Janko Mihelić
On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 06:36:33PM +0200, Janko Mihelić wrote:
> That said, I like the journeys=3/day, 5/hour. If we decide to go with it, I
> can just replace my 3d and 5h with it.

I think that would be sensible. I would never be able to remember what
your notation meant without looking it up each time.

ael


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Re: Ferry frequency

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by John F. Eldredge
John F. Eldredge wrote:
> That brings up an issue for routing in general, not
> just cycle-routing.  The routing algorithm needs
> to take into account the day of the week, and what
> time it will be when you reach a point with time-
> dependent restrictions, or only intermittent
> service (such as a bus or ferry).

Well, yes and no. There are certainly routers that do that; the very wonderful CycleStreets has a "what time are you leaving" input field. But it's equally possible to make the case that, for the 2% edge case (your route includes a ferry), it's not worth cluttering up the UI for the 98% who are just, say, cycling across town to work.

FWIW, I'm planning to flag up the presence of a ferry by saying "route includes ferry, 5 services an hour" and let the user drag the route somewhere else if that doesn't suit them.

cheers
Richard

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Re: Ferry frequency

John F. Eldredge
In reply to this post by ael-3
ael <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 06:36:33PM +0200, Janko Mihelić wrote:
That said, I like the journeys=3/day, 5/hour. If we decide to go with it, I
can just replace my 3d and 5h with it.

I think that would be sensible. I would never be able to remember what
your notation meant without looking it up each time.

ael




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I like the trips / time unit notation.

--
John F. Eldredge -- [hidden email]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: Ferry frequency

Dudley Ibbett
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
One thing that you may also need to consider is that the timetables and therefore number of journeys a day may depend on the month as there are often summer and winter timetables.

Regards

Dudley

> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 07:28:26 -0700

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Ferry frequency
>
> Thanks all - some great suggestions. To clarify, I'm not looking to put
> detailed timetable information in (that properly belongs in a GTFS feed or
> somesuch, not OSM), just a broad-brush indication to help routing engines.
>
> Based on Richard M's and Janko's suggestions, I'm tempted to use:
>
> journeys=4/hour
> journeys=2 or journeys=2/day
> journeys=on_demand
>
> to indicate, respectively, four journeys in each direction per day; two
> journeys in each direction per day; and the sort of ferry where you go to
> the bank, wave the ferryman down, and he comes to take you across.
>
> That avoids any confusion about "frequency" (a tram might have both
> meanings!) and is simple both for the mapper and for the consumer.
>
> I note there's also a reservation= tag
> (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:reservation) which will be useful
> for ferries where booking in advance is required.
>
> cheers
> Richard
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Ferry-frequency-tp5780010p5780141.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Ferry frequency

Charles Basenga Kiyanda-4
If I may insert myself into the conversation. I looked at the opening_hours syntax recently when learning about parking specifications.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours#Syntax

Something like that could be used to specify different frequencies with time of year.

ferry:schedule:default:journeys=2/day
ferry:schedule:time_interval=Apr-Oct:journeys=4/day

I'm ad-libing over the following here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane

Cheers,

Charles

On 10/04/2013 04:49 PM, Dudley Ibbett wrote:
One thing that you may also need to consider is that the timetables and therefore number of journeys a day may depend on the month as there are often summer and winter timetables.

Regards

Dudley

> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 07:28:26 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Ferry frequency
>
> Thanks all - some great suggestions. To clarify, I'm not looking to put
> detailed timetable information in (that properly belongs in a GTFS feed or
> somesuch, not OSM), just a broad-brush indication to help routing engines.
>
> Based on Richard M's and Janko's suggestions, I'm tempted to use:
>
> journeys=4/hour
> journeys=2 or journeys=2/day
> journeys=on_demand
>
> to indicate, respectively, four journeys in each direction per day; two
> journeys in each direction per day; and the sort of ferry where you go to
> the bank, wave the ferryman down, and he comes to take you across.
>
> That avoids any confusion about "frequency" (a tram might have both
> meanings!) and is simple both for the mapper and for the consumer.
>
> I note there's also a reservation= tag
> (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:reservation) which will be useful
> for ferries where booking in advance is required.
>
> cheers
> Richard
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Ferry-frequency-tp5780010p5780141.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: Ferry frequency

Tilo
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
So it seems, that "interval" is the better term.

Of course the service headway is meant.
The tagging should be done with routes. Routes are operated on railway lines, streets or waterways. Only railway lines have signaling headways, not routes. Bus routes also don't have signaling headways.

If "service_interval" is be the better solution, then one should think of the necessity of the "service"-part.
I have tagged a lot of headway-tags in the past and it is a disadvantage to have a long tag-name.
Especially if there are special tags like "service_interval:saturday".

Could there be other meanings for "interval" for route-relations?
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Re: Ferry frequency

fly high
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Am 04.10.2013 00:05, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:

>
> maybe you can use service_times? It uses the opening_hours syntax and I
> invented it originally for churches, but it might fit here as well ;-)


+1

we should stick to one syntax if possible and the opening_hours' syntax
already includes all we need.

If you do not like the service_times you could use operating_hours or
similar with the same syntax as opening_hours.


The same is true for service:interval or service_interval. We should
stick to one syntax and do not start adding weekdays or month in the key !
If you look at the ferry tables of the Acores for example, you will find
a big mixture and you might be able to tell how many journeys per month
but you will never have more than one or two and in winter there are non
where as in July and August there are quite a lot.

cu

fly

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Re: Ferry frequency

Peter Wendorff
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Am 04.10.2013 21:47, schrieb Richard Fairhurst:

> John F. Eldredge wrote:
>> That brings up an issue for routing in general, not
>> just cycle-routing.  The routing algorithm needs
>> to take into account the day of the week, and what
>> time it will be when you reach a point with time-
>> dependent restrictions, or only intermittent
>> service (such as a bus or ferry).
>
> Well, yes and no. There are certainly routers that do that; the very
> wonderful CycleStreets has a "what time are you leaving" input field. But
> it's equally possible to make the case that, for the 2% edge case (your
> route includes a ferry), it's not worth cluttering up the UI for the 98% who
> are just, say, cycling across town to work.
>
> FWIW, I'm planning to flag up the presence of a ferry by saying "route
> includes ferry, 5 services an hour" and let the user drag the route
> somewhere else if that doesn't suit them.
I guess currently the estimated time necessary for the calculated route
is shown somewhere, e.g. like

Duration: 3 hours, 4 minutes

What about printing the estimated time necessary in a way like this:

Duration: estimated 7 hours, 4 minutes but includes ferry which gives
between 3 hours, 17 minutes and 11 hours, 23 minutes, depending on ferry
schedule"

This would print what you want:
- the necessary time without any waiting times (if the ferry would
travel just for you),
- the worst case time (if you just miss the ferry and have to wait for
the next)
- the average case, if you arrive the ferry at a random time.

For calculating the best (shortest, fastest...) route, either the
average case would be used.

regards
Peter

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