Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

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Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Jmapb
Hi USA, just wanted to bring up an issue that I've run into recently
while mapping businesses in NYC.

Whenever I'm walking through the city, I tend to whip out the phone and
check for anything missing, incorrect, or incomplete. Often this means
pausing in front of a restaurant and keying in contact info or opening
hours. Sometimes I also take pictures with the intention of adding tags
later.

There have always been a few who treat this sort of thing with suspicion
-- especially taking pictures. But a couple times lately I've met with
outright hostility from restaurant staff when taking down their data.
One owner complained he was sick of "people from websites posting his
information." Turns out the culprits were food delivery services, who
had been offering delivery from his place without authorization. I plead
my innocence, but this guy was in no mood to appreciate the differences
between a crowdsourced map project and a move-fast-and-break-things
delivery startup.

I discussed this with a friend of mine who owns a restaurant, and he
recounted a similar story -- an angry customer calling the restaurant to
complain about a late delivery. This restaurant doesn't do delivery, and
has never partnered with any third parties for delivery. But a food
delivery startup (I'm not naming names... actually I can't even keep
them straight) apparently scouted their location, imported the menu
(which changes often and is not posted on the web), and listed the
restaurant as a delivery client -- all without even informing the
restaurant, much less attempting to make any sort of agreement. They 
wouldn't even take down the listing when confronted -- figured they
could just bully their way into a business relationship. And they were
listing dishes that weren't even on the menu anymore! Though they took
them all down quickly when the restaurant's lawyer called.

Don't know how common these sort of predatory tactics are outside NYC,
but fair warning, there may be businesses out there who are no longer
delighted at the thought of someone "from the internet" taking notice of
their publicly-posted information.

Happy mapping, Jason


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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Jack Armstrong Dancer@sprynet.com
After mapping for years in the way you described, I've never been approached by anyone. I try to be very discreet and I try to look like I'm just texting with someone. Sitting on a bench nearby is ideal - if available. I decided long ago that if anyone ever did approach me I'd just say I'm taking down info from a business I may need to use in the future - which is actually a possibility. Not that it's anyone's business what I'm doing.

I prefer to avoid long explanations that people have little interest in.

From my perspective, if a business owner posts signs on a store front with information in plain view of the street, the information in the public domain and they have no room for complaint.

www.theaveragenomad.com


-----Original Message-----

>From: Jmapb <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Aug 21, 2018 10:39 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust
>
>Hi USA, just wanted to bring up an issue that I've run into recently
>while mapping businesses in NYC.
>
>Whenever I'm walking through the city, I tend to whip out the phone and
>check for anything missing, incorrect, or incomplete. Often this means
>pausing in front of a restaurant and keying in contact info or opening
>hours. Sometimes I also take pictures with the intention of adding tags
>later.
>
>There have always been a few who treat this sort of thing with suspicion
>-- especially taking pictures. But a couple times lately I've met with
>outright hostility from restaurant staff when taking down their data.
>One owner complained he was sick of "people from websites posting his
>information." Turns out the culprits were food delivery services, who
>had been offering delivery from his place without authorization. I plead
>my innocence, but this guy was in no mood to appreciate the differences
>between a crowdsourced map project and a move-fast-and-break-things
>delivery startup.
>
>I discussed this with a friend of mine who owns a restaurant, and he
>recounted a similar story -- an angry customer calling the restaurant to
>complain about a late delivery. This restaurant doesn't do delivery, and
>has never partnered with any third parties for delivery. But a food
>delivery startup (I'm not naming names... actually I can't even keep
>them straight) apparently scouted their location, imported the menu
>(which changes often and is not posted on the web), and listed the
>restaurant as a delivery client -- all without even informing the
>restaurant, much less attempting to make any sort of agreement. They 
>wouldn't even take down the listing when confronted -- figured they
>could just bully their way into a business relationship. And they were
>listing dishes that weren't even on the menu anymore! Though they took
>them all down quickly when the restaurant's lawyer called.
>
>Don't know how common these sort of predatory tactics are outside NYC,
>but fair warning, there may be businesses out there who are no longer
>delighted at the thought of someone "from the internet" taking notice of
>their publicly-posted information.
>
>Happy mapping, Jason
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Talk-us mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Clifford Snow
In reply to this post by Jmapb
When I'm out taking pictures for later entry into OSM, I bring a bunch of business cards to hand out. The card has my name, phone number, email and the OSM website. I do this because I'm hoping to get interested businesses to add more data to OSM. But giving the staff a card might also lessen their concerns. And it does help spread the word about OSM.

Clifford



On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 9:39 AM Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi USA, just wanted to bring up an issue that I've run into recently
while mapping businesses in NYC.

Whenever I'm walking through the city, I tend to whip out the phone and
check for anything missing, incorrect, or incomplete. Often this means
pausing in front of a restaurant and keying in contact info or opening
hours. Sometimes I also take pictures with the intention of adding tags
later.

There have always been a few who treat this sort of thing with suspicion
-- especially taking pictures. But a couple times lately I've met with
outright hostility from restaurant staff when taking down their data.
One owner complained he was sick of "people from websites posting his
information." Turns out the culprits were food delivery services, who
had been offering delivery from his place without authorization. I plead
my innocence, but this guy was in no mood to appreciate the differences
between a crowdsourced map project and a move-fast-and-break-things
delivery startup.

I discussed this with a friend of mine who owns a restaurant, and he
recounted a similar story -- an angry customer calling the restaurant to
complain about a late delivery. This restaurant doesn't do delivery, and
has never partnered with any third parties for delivery. But a food
delivery startup (I'm not naming names... actually I can't even keep
them straight) apparently scouted their location, imported the menu
(which changes often and is not posted on the web), and listed the
restaurant as a delivery client -- all without even informing the
restaurant, much less attempting to make any sort of agreement. They 
wouldn't even take down the listing when confronted -- figured they
could just bully their way into a business relationship. And they were
listing dishes that weren't even on the menu anymore! Though they took
them all down quickly when the restaurant's lawyer called.

Don't know how common these sort of predatory tactics are outside NYC,
but fair warning, there may be businesses out there who are no longer
delighted at the thought of someone "from the internet" taking notice of
their publicly-posted information.

Happy mapping, Jason


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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


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@osm_seattle
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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Kevin Broderick
It's worth noting that at least one business out there (locu) has a nasty habit of scraping menu data and then trying to sign restaurants up for a search-engine visibility package in order to be able to update it (they'll also remove it without a fee, if you ask in the right way, but there are hoops to be jumped through).

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
When I'm out taking pictures for later entry into OSM, I bring a bunch of business cards to hand out. The card has my name, phone number, email and the OSM website. I do this because I'm hoping to get interested businesses to add more data to OSM. But giving the staff a card might also lessen their concerns. And it does help spread the word about OSM.

Clifford



On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 9:39 AM Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi USA, just wanted to bring up an issue that I've run into recently
while mapping businesses in NYC.

Whenever I'm walking through the city, I tend to whip out the phone and
check for anything missing, incorrect, or incomplete. Often this means
pausing in front of a restaurant and keying in contact info or opening
hours. Sometimes I also take pictures with the intention of adding tags
later.

There have always been a few who treat this sort of thing with suspicion
-- especially taking pictures. But a couple times lately I've met with
outright hostility from restaurant staff when taking down their data.
One owner complained he was sick of "people from websites posting his
information." Turns out the culprits were food delivery services, who
had been offering delivery from his place without authorization. I plead
my innocence, but this guy was in no mood to appreciate the differences
between a crowdsourced map project and a move-fast-and-break-things
delivery startup.

I discussed this with a friend of mine who owns a restaurant, and he
recounted a similar story -- an angry customer calling the restaurant to
complain about a late delivery. This restaurant doesn't do delivery, and
has never partnered with any third parties for delivery. But a food
delivery startup (I'm not naming names... actually I can't even keep
them straight) apparently scouted their location, imported the menu
(which changes often and is not posted on the web), and listed the
restaurant as a delivery client -- all without even informing the
restaurant, much less attempting to make any sort of agreement. They 
wouldn't even take down the listing when confronted -- figured they
could just bully their way into a business relationship. And they were
listing dishes that weren't even on the menu anymore! Though they took
them all down quickly when the restaurant's lawyer called.

Don't know how common these sort of predatory tactics are outside NYC,
but fair warning, there may be businesses out there who are no longer
delighted at the thought of someone "from the internet" taking notice of
their publicly-posted information.

Happy mapping, Jason


_______________________________________________
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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

stevea
In reply to this post by Jmapb
I like Clifford's approach of "If you are curious and asking, I reply openly and honestly with my real name and a card I'm handing you so you may forthrightly know who I am and what I'm doing."

In the very, very limited number of times I have also had what I can only characterize as "mild inquisitiveness" towards "what are you doing with what looks like spying (no) / data collection (yes)?  This seldom if every gets rude or hostile, I ask them if they have a smart-phone (as they see me punching a mobile device in my hand, holding a GPS, scribbling notes on paper, or all three).  If they say "yes" (billions of us do), I ask, "Do you ever use maps on it or be a little amazed at how because it knows where you are (if you tell it that's OK) and then search for the nearest dry-cleaners is or how to most quickly walk to the drugstore it draws a nice set of lines on a map that is pretty, up to date, and takes you right there easily?  Well, as a volunteer in an open data mapping project called OpenStreetMap, I'm helping you continue to do that in the present and future by updating things around here."

I invariably get a smile and a hearty "thank you!" and it's all over in about twenty seconds.  Good will begets same.

The "scraping of menus" and "we deliver Ming's Chinese" (though Ming knows nothing about delivery of his food) are strange trends for me to see, but I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised.  Whether this is legal or ethical or has anything to do with maps (OSM or otherwise), I'll refrain from saying anything about here and now.  Except that as more and more telescopes are pointed at everybody everywhere, we shouldn't lament the disappearance of what we once quaintly thought of as "privacy."

Regards,
SteveA
California
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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Mike N.
In reply to this post by Jmapb
On 8/21/2018 11:39 AM, Jmapb wrote:
>
> Don't know how common these sort of predatory tactics are outside NYC,
> but fair warning, there may be businesses out there who are no longer
> delighted at the thought of someone "from the internet" taking notice of
> their publicly-posted information.

   Good story!   I've only been questioned twice: once by a store owner
who probably thought I was from some municipal code enforcement
department, and one from a passing jogger.   In both cases I handed out
a card and a quick explanation and that was the end of it.   But I do
data entry back on the desktop so my appearance is normally just walking
by and snapping 1 or 2 photos of each item.

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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Ian Dees
In reply to this post by Clifford Snow
On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 12:39 PM Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
When I'm out taking pictures for later entry into OSM, I bring a bunch of business cards to hand out. The card has my name, phone number, email and the OSM website. I do this because I'm hoping to get interested businesses to add more data to OSM. But giving the staff a card might also lessen their concerns. And it does help spread the word about OSM.

Many years ago some OSM folks put together little fold-up pamphlets that described OSM from a layperson's perspective. They were designed for promotion at events, but maybe we could put together a tiny little sheet of paper/business card that describes OSM from a business owner's perspective. If someone were to put such a thing together I'd be happy to get it printed and distribute to folks that didn't want to print it themselves.

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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Michael Reichert-3
Hi,

Am 21.08.2018 um 20:19 schrieb Ian Dees:
> Many years ago some OSM folks put together little fold-up pamphlets that
> described OSM from a layperson's perspective. They were designed for
> promotion at events, but maybe we could put together a tiny little sheet of
> paper/business card that describes OSM from a business owner's perspective.
> If someone were to put such a thing together I'd be happy to get it printed
> and distribute to folks that didn't want to print it themselves.

Many years ago? They have been produced for more than ten years now – in
German. There is also an English version by Andy Allan. [1]

The sources of the English version can be found at GitHub:
https://github.com/fossgis/openstreetmap-promotional-leaflets

The photo does not show the latest version which does not mention the
OpenStreetMap book by Frederik Ramm and Jochen Topf any more.

The German version has different high-zoom maps featuring locations in
German. It is usually used by all our mappers out there collecting the
data and arguing with worried residents who assume that someone will
burgle into their house next week. Some are also used at fairs or
conferences where OSM community members are present.

In Germany, the German flyers are printed and distributed by Geofabrik
where mappers can order them via email and get a few of them via mail.

The mentioned flyers are very suitable for the issues mentioned by
Jason. I would appreciate it if other local chapters offered a similar
service where community members can order small packages of flyers.

Best regards

Michael



[1] Andy stopped distribution about two or three years ago.

--
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ausgenommen)
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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Ian Dees
On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:01 PM Michael Reichert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Many years ago? They have been produced for more than ten years now – in
German. There is also an English version by Andy Allan. [1]

Yes, many years ago. Like you say:
 
...
[1] Andy stopped distribution about two or three years ago.
 
It'd be great to have smaller, shorter versions that could be handed out like business cards to handle this case in particular, where business owners are curious and law enforcement or other interested parties might express concern.

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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Clifford Snow


On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM Ian Dees <[hidden email]> wrote: 
It'd be great to have smaller, shorter versions that could be handed out like business cards to handle this case in particular, where business owners are curious and law enforcement or other interested parties might express concern.
 
I picked business cards because people are familiar with them, they are easy to carry and not that expensive.

Having information on both sides, which I don't do, would allow us to include tips to help owners add info to OSM. Anyone want to take a stab at creating one?

--
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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Martijn van Exel-3
A bit of a tangent perhaps, but I sometimes will carry a digital audio recorder to quickly take a voice note instead of a picture or paper note. It’s very inconspicuous and JOSM can load them in the actual location if they are properly time stamped. 

Martijn van Exel

On Aug 21, 2018, at 17:20, Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM Ian Dees <[hidden email]> wrote: 
It'd be great to have smaller, shorter versions that could be handed out like business cards to handle this case in particular, where business owners are curious and law enforcement or other interested parties might express concern.
 
I picked business cards because people are familiar with them, they are easy to carry and not that expensive.

Having information on both sides, which I don't do, would allow us to include tips to help owners add info to OSM. Anyone want to take a stab at creating one?

--
@osm_seattle
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

stevea
In reply to this post by Jmapb
Though I'm "old enough in this project" to celebrate my first decade coming up, I haven't seen the English, German or ANY version in printed form — I'd now almost consider it a historic document!  And while I seldom snarl "don't print, we need our trees" (I did co-develop PDF while at Adobe, so I have helped humanity use less paper) I'm still OK with the idea of handing out business cards or printed matter explaining who OSM is and what we do.  A-OK.

I repeat myself, but simply opening my mouth and offering a helpful bit of truth and a smile has always gotten me a "thank you" in return.  So, "got paper?" to hand out?  Great!  Don't, but you have a mouth that politely explains OSM as a volunteer project while smiling?  That's good, too:  invariably, you'll get a smile right back at you.

OSM remains one of the most cool, beneficial-to-humanity, feels-good-in-your-bones volunteer activities you might do right now.  Maybe that's just me, but I sincerely doubt that.

SteveA
California

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Re: Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

Ilya Zverev-2
In reply to this post by Clifford Snow
Handing out business cards is a great idea, which we in Russia have used
numerous times. This usually directs a conversation towards mapping and
its benefit for people, which is always good. You should not hide when
mapping: educating people about OSM is an important part of surveying.

You can find a few design examples on our wiki:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Business_card

Ilya

22.08.2018 02:20, Clifford Snow пишет:

>
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM Ian Dees <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     It'd be great to have smaller, shorter versions that could be handed
>     out like business cards to handle this case in particular, where
>     business owners are curious and law enforcement or other interested
>     parties might express concern.
>
> I picked business cards because people are familiar with them, they are
> easy to carry and not that expensive.
>
> Having information on both sides, which I don't do, would allow us to
> include tips to help owners add info to OSM. Anyone want to take a stab
> at creating one?
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us <http://osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us>
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-us mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>


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