Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

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Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

Guillaume Rischard

Hi all,

The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving infrastructure. During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to learn how supporting osm infrastructure projects works well.

The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have selected the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a new proposal from Nominatim.

In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and budget management for such projects.

The Board would like your feedback on these three specific infrastructure projects:

Nominatim

Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org and many other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on:

  • finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for different countries, localized address output)

  • making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of programming languages by at least two, move side-projects into separate repos, reorganise the code so that Nominatim can become an Ubuntu package, docs, docs, docs)

The full proposal is at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07

Potlatch 2

Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million (1.2%) changes in 2020.

Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who still rely on it can continue to use it.

The full proposal is at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop

osm2pgsql

osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for applications like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or general analysis. It is used on openstreetmap.org and in many other places.

While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql, large scale architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt are needed to tackle long term challenges, and make future changes easier.

Jochen wants to work on:

  • Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org

  • Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and useful

  • Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code.

  • Ongoing maintenance as needed

  • Other work from the road map as time permits

The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant framework. The current project goes beyond that, and addresses open issues and potential improvements further and better.

The proposal is at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07




Thank you and happy mapping

Guillaume, for the OSMF board

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Re: [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

Heather Leson-2
Hello

This is fantastic. 

Heather 


On Sat, 1 Aug 2020, 02:30 Guillaume Rischard, <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving infrastructure. During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to learn how supporting osm infrastructure projects works well.

The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have selected the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a new proposal from Nominatim.

In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and budget management for such projects.

The Board would like your feedback on these three specific infrastructure projects:

Nominatim

Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org and many other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on:

  • finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for different countries, localized address output)

  • making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of programming languages by at least two, move side-projects into separate repos, reorganise the code so that Nominatim can become an Ubuntu package, docs, docs, docs)

The full proposal is at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07

Potlatch 2

Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million (1.2%) changes in 2020.

Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who still rely on it can continue to use it.

The full proposal is at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop

osm2pgsql

osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for applications like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or general analysis. It is used on openstreetmap.org and in many other places.

While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql, large scale architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt are needed to tackle long term challenges, and make future changes easier.

Jochen wants to work on:

  • Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org

  • Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and useful

  • Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code.

  • Ongoing maintenance as needed

  • Other work from the road map as time permits

The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant framework. The current project goes beyond that, and addresses open issues and potential improvements further and better.

The proposal is at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07




Thank you and happy mapping

Guillaume, for the OSMF board
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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by Guillaume Rischard
So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in a sustainable manner.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
From: Guillaume Rischard
To: OSMF Talk
CC: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list


Hi all,

The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving infrastructure. During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to learn how supporting osm infrastructure projects works well.

The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have selected the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a new proposal from Nominatim.

In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and budget management for such projects.

The Board would like your feedback on these three specific infrastructure projects:

Nominatim

Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org and many other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on:

  • finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for different countries, localized address output)

  • making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of programming languages by at least two, move side-projects into separate repos, reorganise the code so that Nominatim can become an Ubuntu package, docs, docs, docs)

The full proposal is at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07

Potlatch 2

Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million (1.2%) changes in 2020.

Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who still rely on it can continue to use it.

The full proposal is at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop

osm2pgsql

osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for applications like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or general analysis. It is used on openstreetmap.org and in many other places.

While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql, large scale architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt are needed to tackle long term challenges, and make future changes easier.

Jochen wants to work on:

  • Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org

  • Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and useful

  • Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code.

  • Ongoing maintenance as needed

  • Other work from the road map as time permits

The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant framework. The current project goes beyond that, and addresses open issues and potential improvements further and better.

The proposal is at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07




Thank you and happy mapping

Guillaume, for the OSMF board

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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

SimonPoole

That was a good decade ago, nothing that would factor in to a decision now (because Linux could not be a target platform to start with). 

Am 01.08.2020 um 10:16 schrieb Sören Reinecke via talk:
So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in a sustainable manner.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
From: Guillaume Rischard
To: OSMF Talk
CC: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list


Hi all,

The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving infrastructure. During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to learn how supporting osm infrastructure projects works well.

The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have selected the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a new proposal from Nominatim.

In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and budget management for such projects.

The Board would like your feedback on these three specific infrastructure projects:

Nominatim

Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org and many other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on:

  • finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for different countries, localized address output)

  • making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of programming languages by at least two, move side-projects into separate repos, reorganise the code so that Nominatim can become an Ubuntu package, docs, docs, docs)

The full proposal is at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07

Potlatch 2

Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million (1.2%) changes in 2020.

Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who still rely on it can continue to use it.

The full proposal is at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop

osm2pgsql

osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for applications like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or general analysis. It is used on openstreetmap.org and in many other places.

While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql, large scale architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt are needed to tackle long term challenges, and make future changes easier.

Jochen wants to work on:

  • Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org

  • Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and useful

  • Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code.

  • Ongoing maintenance as needed

  • Other work from the road map as time permits

The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant framework. The current project goes beyond that, and addresses open issues and potential improvements further and better.

The proposal is at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07




Thank you and happy mapping

Guillaume, for the OSMF board

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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

mmd
On 2020-08-01 10:32, Simon Poole wrote:
> That was a good decade ago, nothing that would factor in to a decision
> now (because Linux could not be a target platform to start with). 
>

The Adobe AIR download page seems to suggest that Adobe AIR is only
available on 64-bit Windows platforms. Do we know how many of our 2500
users would fulfill that requirement?

Why aren't we porting Potlatch2 to WebAssembly, then?

--



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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Guillaume Rischard
Sören Reinecke wrote:
> So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its 
> AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that 
> supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in 
> a sustainable manner.

AIR is not maintained by Adobe, but by Harman, a Samsung subsidiary. AIR for Linux is still supported at version 2.6 but not updated (https://airsdk.harman.com/faq): Harman is considering future updates. P2 will still run on 2.6 - there are explicit workarounds in the code (e.g. in net/systemeD/potlatch2/collections/Imagery.as) to ensure backward compatibility.

Nonetheless, even if P2 didn't run on Linux, I'm not sure why this should be an issue for other users. No-one says Vespucci isn't sustainable because it doesn't run on iOS.

mmd wrote:
> Why aren't we porting Potlatch2 to WebAssembly, then? 

I'm not sure who the "we" is in this question, but assuming you're not volunteering yourself :), the difficult dependency with P2 is not ActionScript 3 but the Flash runtime, i.e. the Flash and Flex APIs. There are currently only two runtimes capable of running P2: Flash Player and AIR. Ruffle is showing promise (https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle) and is under very active development, but does not yet support AS3 or the Flash Player features that P2 needs. I would anticipate that P2 will be able to run as WebAssembly when Ruffle reaches feature parity with AIR 2.6.

Richard

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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

Guillaume Rischard
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list
Air will continue to be supported by, believe it or not, Samsung:

https://theblog.adobe.com/the-future-of-adobe-air/

On 1 Aug 2020, at 10:16, Sören Reinecke <[hidden email]> wrote:

So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in a sustainable manner.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
From: Guillaume Rischard
To: OSMF Talk
CC: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list


Hi all,

The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving infrastructure. During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to learn how supporting osm infrastructure projects works well.

The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have selected the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a new proposal from Nominatim.

In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and budget management for such projects.

The Board would like your feedback on these three specific infrastructure projects:

Nominatim

Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org and many other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on:

  • finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for different countries, localized address output)

  • making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of programming languages by at least two, move side-projects into separate repos, reorganise the code so that Nominatim can become an Ubuntu package, docs, docs, docs)

The full proposal is at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07

Potlatch 2

Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million (1.2%) changes in 2020.

Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who still rely on it can continue to use it.

The full proposal is at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop

osm2pgsql

osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for applications like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or general analysis. It is used on openstreetmap.org and in many other places.

While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql, large scale architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt are needed to tackle long term challenges, and make future changes easier.

Jochen wants to work on:

  • Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org

  • Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and useful

  • Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code.

  • Ongoing maintenance as needed

  • Other work from the road map as time permits

The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant framework. The current project goes beyond that, and addresses open issues and potential improvements further and better.

The proposal is at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07




Thank you and happy mapping

Guillaume, for the OSMF board


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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst


sent from a phone

On 1. Aug 2020, at 12:45, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:

mmd wrote:
> Why aren't we porting Potlatch2 to WebAssembly, then? 

I'm not sure who the "we" is in this question, but assuming you're not volunteering yourself :)


we is the OpenStreetMap-Foundation and in a more enlarged view, the community of OpenStreetMappers.
I believe it is legitimate to discuss which projects should get funding, because we think they can and should have a future.

Do you know if there is some kind of analytics integrated into adobe air and whether it can be turned off?  
I have been checking the terms, and it seems they do track you and it can’t be switched off

This is the link:



7.7 Use of Adobe Online Services. If your Computer is connected to the Internet, the Software may, without additional notice and on an intermittent or regular basis, facilitate your access to content and services that are hosted on websites maintained by Adobe or its affiliates (“Adobe Online Services”). ..... If your Computer is connected to the Internet, the Software may, without additional notice, update downloadable materials from these Adobe Online Services so as to provide immediate availability of these Adobe Online Services even when you are offline. When the Software connects to the Internet as a function of an Adobe Online Service, your IP Address, user name, and password may be sent to Adobe’s servers and stored by Adobe in accordance with the Additional Terms of Use or the “help” menu in the Software. This information may be used by Adobe to send you transactional messages to facilitate the Adobe Online Service. Adobe may display in-product marketing to provide information about the Software and other Adobe products and Services, including but not limited to Adobe Online Services, based on certain Software specific features including but not limited to, the version of the Software, including without limitation, platform version, version of the Software, and language. For further information about in-product marketing, please see the “help” menu in the Software. Whenever the Software makes an Internet connection and communicates with an Adobe website, whether automatically or due to explicit user request, the Adobe Online Privacy Policy shall apply. Additionally, unless you are provided with separate terms of use at that time, the Adobe.com Terms of Use (http://www.adobe.com/go/terms) shall apply. Please note that the Adobe Privacy Policy allows tracking of website visits and it addresses in detail the topic of tracking and use of cookies, web beacons, and similar devices.


What I found puzzling: usage is restricted to countries that the US administration likes:


11. Export Rules.
You agree that the Software will not be shipped, transferred, or exported into any country or used in any manner prohibited by the United States Export Administration Act or any other export laws, restrictions, or regulations (collectively the “Export Laws”).


Cheers Martin 





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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
> Nonetheless, even if P2 didn't run on Linux, I'm not sure why this should be an issue for other users. No-one says Vespucci isn't sustainable because it doesn't run on iOS.

But Vespucci is not mentioned here by OSMF and I remember that Android is following the principle of free, democracy, open source, competition (because it's distribution like approach though Google as a say in it which apps are installed by default and what can be done with the phone in terms of rooting it. The distribution approach as an argument for priorizing support for Android is therefore questionable) more than iOS does. And iOS restricts you more than Android does.

Regards

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
From: Richard Fairhurst
To: [hidden email]
CC:


Sören Reinecke wrote:
> So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its 
> AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that 
> supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in 
> a sustainable manner.

AIR is not maintained by Adobe, but by Harman, a Samsung subsidiary. AIR for Linux is still supported at version 2.6 but not updated (https://airsdk.harman.com/faq): Harman is considering future updates. P2 will still run on 2.6 - there are explicit workarounds in the code (e.g. in net/systemeD/potlatch2/collections/Imagery.as) to ensure backward compatibility.

Nonetheless, even if P2 didn't run on Linux, I'm not sure why this should be an issue for other users. No-one says Vespucci isn't sustainable because it doesn't run on iOS.

mmd wrote:
> Why aren't we porting Potlatch2 to WebAssembly, then? 

I'm not sure who the "we" is in this question, but assuming you're not volunteering yourself :), the difficult dependency with P2 is not ActionScript 3 but the Flash runtime, i.e. the Flash and Flex APIs. There are currently only two runtimes capable of running P2: Flash Player and AIR. Ruffle is showing promise (https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle) and is under very active development, but does not yet support AS3 or the Flash Player features that P2 needs. I would anticipate that P2 will be able to run as WebAssembly when Ruffle reaches feature parity with AIR 2.6.

Richard

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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

Skyler Hawthorne
In reply to this post by Guillaume Rischard
On July 31, 2020 20:29:33 Guillaume Rischard <[hidden email]> wrote:

Potlatch 2

Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million (1.2%) changes in 2020.

Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who still rely on it can continue to use it.

The full proposal is at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop


Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This money is better spent on other uses.
--
Skyler


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Re: [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Guillaume Rischard
Hi,

nice to see you rescue a few worthwhile things that have fallen through
the cracks of the Microgrant programme.

> During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make
> it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure”
> process,

Are you planning to take the funds for these projects out of the
"Pineapple Grant" money, or out of the regular budget?

> The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by
> trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy.

I think that "trusted long-term volunteers" is key here, and somewhat of
a weak point at the same time.

I notice that all three proposals are very short on hard deliverables;
what they mostly promise is working a certain number of hours on a
certain thing but there is no guarantee that, or to what extent, the
thing is going to be achieved. Richard's proposal is the clearest here
("The result will be a version of Potlatch 2 that can be run on Mac and
Windows laptops"), whereas Jochen and Sarah only commit to working on
something, not to actually achieving it. This means we'll pay them no
matter what.

Now this is all fine because we have reason to believe that every one of
the three proposals will be a good investment and even if a goal could
not be achieved, the money would at least land with people who have done
a lot of volunteer stuff for OSM in the past. But the criteria are fuzzy
- why do we trust these three people that if we give them money to work
on something it will be worth it? Assume someone came along saying wait
a minute, I can do the same for half the money! And then we would say,
err, umm, sorry, no, we don't trust you in the same way we trust these
"trusted long-term volunteers".

Looking forward, it might become necessary to define deliverables more
clearly and make payment conditional on results having been achieved,
rather on time having been spent. But if you're lucky...

> In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group
> (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and
> budget management for such projects.

... the EWG can take over that job ;)

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

john whelan-2
Working on old code is always difficult.  IBM got to the point of removing a bug to their mainframe operating system on average introduced a new bug.

Then you get into the testing side of things.

The flash side of potlatch is one that given the number of editors using it and alternatives available to them today may not be a good return on investment and I think that should be weighed up.

Nomination I think is essential and if it can be expanded so much the better.

osm2pgsql is not something I have direct experience with but I suspect it is one of the infrastructure things that many other things depend on.

The learning curve on old code is steep and if you have someone who knows the code then I think use them if you possibly can.  I've seen a consultant been brought in to make a change and on half way through the second day one of the programmers walked up to him and asked him what the change was.  The consultant was pointed to the line of code that needed to be altered and it took a few seconds to make the change. The consultant was trying to understand what the entire program did before making any changes in case it had an impact which was the correct thing for the consultant to do but experience with the software makes things much faster.

Oh and I've seen someone say we can do that in half the time and half the cost.  Problem was they didn't understand the problems involved or what needed to be done.  They were fired a week later when it didn't work but that didn't solve the program problem.

Have fun

Cheerio John

Frederik Ramm wrote on 2020-08-01 19:40:
Hi,

nice to see you rescue a few worthwhile things that have fallen through
the cracks of the Microgrant programme.

During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make
it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure”
process, 
Are you planning to take the funds for these projects out of the
"Pineapple Grant" money, or out of the regular budget?

The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by
trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. 
I think that "trusted long-term volunteers" is key here, and somewhat of
a weak point at the same time.

I notice that all three proposals are very short on hard deliverables;
what they mostly promise is working a certain number of hours on a
certain thing but there is no guarantee that, or to what extent, the
thing is going to be achieved. Richard's proposal is the clearest here
("The result will be a version of Potlatch 2 that can be run on Mac and
Windows laptops"), whereas Jochen and Sarah only commit to working on
something, not to actually achieving it. This means we'll pay them no
matter what.

Now this is all fine because we have reason to believe that every one of
the three proposals will be a good investment and even if a goal could
not be achieved, the money would at least land with people who have done
a lot of volunteer stuff for OSM in the past. But the criteria are fuzzy
- why do we trust these three people that if we give them money to work
on something it will be worth it? Assume someone came along saying wait
a minute, I can do the same for half the money! And then we would say,
err, umm, sorry, no, we don't trust you in the same way we trust these
"trusted long-term volunteers".

Looking forward, it might become necessary to define deliverables more
clearly and make payment conditional on results having been achieved,
rather on time having been spent. But if you're lucky...

In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group
(EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and
budget management for such projects.
... the EWG can take over that job ;)

Bye
Frederik


--
Sent from Postbox

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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Guillaume Rischard
Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to 
> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. 
> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This 
> money is better spent on other uses.

The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player) to a supported one (AIR).

On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project is by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now. Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code on iD since then, you get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020) changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is kind of fun.

(I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets - 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days. That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not because they are magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500 then we would snap your hand off.)

Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of sustained work to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other stuff I believe will make P2 more sustainable into the future, and there is a hard deadline for that sustained work (i.e. Flash Player switch-off at the end of the year). It's not a project that can just be done in evenings here and there. That enables further, unfunded developments in the future, and in turn I hope the tradition of other editors taking inspiration from P2 can continue - it's not for nothing that JOSM has a Potlatch 2 style and a "Potlatch mode" for editing.

But you are, of course, welcome to develop and put forward a project to OSMF which you believe will have more bang for the buck. "Other uses" is easy to type but doesn't actually mean anything until you identify what those uses are, and crucially, find someone who is prepared to do them.

Richard

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Re: {Disarmed} Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

cquest
In reply to this post by Guillaume Rischard
Le 01/08/2020 à 02:27, Guillaume Rischard a écrit :

Hi all,

The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving infrastructure. During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to learn how supporting osm infrastructure projects works well.

The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have selected the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a new proposal from Nominatim.

In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and budget management for such projects.

The Board would like your feedback on these three specific infrastructure projects:


Very good news !

Infrastructure is not only hardware and network, it's also code and humans to make all this run as smoothly as possible.

If enough funds are available for all project, they should all be funded.


For a long term view, helping new devs to get familiar with old code is a key to maintain legacy code when it still represent a large dependance in the infrastructure. By infrastructure I see the OSMF one, but also all the OSM ecosystem.


osm2pgsql is a good example of a key tool used by a lot of people (not only OSMF). We've seen recently with a single changeset causing failed updates how dependant a lot of people can be from that "old code". I'm also thinking the same about mod_tile/renderd, where maintenance seems minimal.

nominatim seems less broadly used, but it still is an important tool on OSMF web site.

potlatch... I don't really put it in the infrastructure, but if funds are available why not give it a few more years life even if a tiny portion of changesets are made with it.

-- 
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France

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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

mmd
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
On 2020-08-01 12:42, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Ruffle is showing promise (https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle) and is
> under very active development, but does not yet support AS3 or the Flash
> Player features that P2 needs. I would anticipate that P2 will be able
> to run as WebAssembly when Ruffle reaches feature parity with AIR 2.6.

Yes, exactly, that's one of the two approaches I had in mind: rewriting
from scratch preferably also in Rust (which obviously wouldn't fit in
the proposed budget or timeframe), or use Ruffle with the existing code.

I'm wondering if some of the changes that are now needed for AIR would
make it more difficult to switch to Ruffle later on. I clearly see AIR
as some temporary solution to keep running even after Dec 2020, as long
as Ruffle isn't ready yet.

In a more mid-term, I really like to see a move away from such
proprietary platforms to an editor that runs in a browser
out-of-the-box. I'm a bit worried about AIR being (too) difficult to
install and run for an average Potlatch user, but that's just a gut feeling.

--






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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Skyler Hawthorne

Am 02.08.2020 um 01:03 schrieb Skyler Hawthorne:
> ...
>
> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to
> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful.
> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This money
> is better spent on other uses.
> ...

Extending this a bit further, you could just as well say, given that all
current and actively maintained general purpose editors require 1-2
FTEs, the OSMF should simply block all non-iD editors and tell the
developers to either work on iD or go home.

In reality things are not quite that simple,  it starts with measuring
how much use an app actually gets.

While iD outstrips JOSM substantially wrt users (JOSM has less than 10%
market share), a majority of the iD users have a very small number of
edits and are non recurring contributors. This reflects itself in the
edit counts too where the ratio is ~2/3 JOSM and 1/3 id. Naturally JOSM
-currently- tends to get used for larger edits which is likely a major
factor. Given that P2 users are mostly long time OSM contributors that
edit regularly, a similar pattern can be seen, and I think that a one
time update at the proposed cost can easily be justified.

Now medium term, that is 1-2 years, this is likely going to change
substantially. iD is branching out in to more and more niches, reducing
the breathing space for anything else massively and other editor use has
effectively been stagnating for a long time. While people will
automatically try to start listing special use cases that can "only" be
done with editor XX, the problem is that these are special cases and
unlikely to be worth spending a couple of $100k on per year (virtually
or real) for the small number of users that will remain as iD gains more
and more features.

Simon



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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

pangose
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Is this the platform you are targeting? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR

Its proprietary which makes it prone to the same fate as Flash Player. Why even consider such a move?

I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness (as a plugin perhaps) to JOSM?

The JOSM devs seem very helpful, supporting and have a friendly culture.

I suggest letting this code die as it lures people to install nonfree and therefore dangerous software. Alternatively that you team up with your 20 mio edits-peers and port the code to something that does not require proprietary software.

You did not present a single usecase that is not covered already by one of the other free software editors so I'm guessing you will have a hard time convincing your peers to team up around yet another editor, but I might be wrong.

I don't care about your ROI arguments because they are based on the not outspoken premise that economics of software development is more important when making decisions than freedom, which is false IMO.
If you had compared 2 free software projects like iD and JOSM that run without any proprietary code, then it might have been relevant.

I suggest declining support of any software project that is or requires proprietary software to run.

Cheers
pangoSE
PS I use 4 different editors to edit in the database: JOSM, OsmAnd, StreetComplete and rarely iD.


Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> skrev: (2 augusti 2020 10:28:22 CEST)
Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to 
> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. 
> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This 
> money is better spent on other uses.

The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player) to a supported one (AIR).

On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project is by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now. Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code on iD since then, you get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020) changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is kind of fun.

(I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets - 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days. That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not because they are magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500 then we would snap your hand off.)

Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of sustained work to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other stuff I believe will make P2 more sustainable into the future, and there is a hard deadline for that sustained work (i.e. Flash Player switch-off at the end of the year). It's not a project that can just be done in evenings here and there. That enables further, unfunded developments in the future, and in turn I hope the tradition of other editors taking inspiration from P2 can continue - it's not for nothing that JOSM has a Potlatch 2 style and a "Potlatch mode" for editing.

But you are, of course, welcome to develop and put forward a project to OSMF which you believe will have more bang for the buck. "Other uses" is easy to type but doesn't actually mean anything until you identify what those uses are, and crucially, find someone who is prepared to do them.

Richard

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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

john whelan-2
If Air is proprietary and an Adobe product I strongly suggest avoiding it purely from a security point of view.  Adobe does not have a good reputation in the security world.  Comments certainly have been made about Flash.

I don't think we should be encouraging the installation of software that could cause problems for our mappers.

I accept that for many who know potlatch well there is a cost of learning something new and many are experienced editors who we'd like to see continue but there are tradeoffs and I think security of the software we are asking people to install should be taken into account.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 08:54 pangoSE <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is this the platform you are targeting? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR

Its proprietary which makes it prone to the same fate as Flash Player. Why even consider such a move?

I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness (as a plugin perhaps) to JOSM?

The JOSM devs seem very helpful, supporting and have a friendly culture.

I suggest letting this code die as it lures people to install nonfree and therefore dangerous software. Alternatively that you team up with your 20 mio edits-peers and port the code to something that does not require proprietary software.

You did not present a single usecase that is not covered already by one of the other free software editors so I'm guessing you will have a hard time convincing your peers to team up around yet another editor, but I might be wrong.

I don't care about your ROI arguments because they are based on the not outspoken premise that economics of software development is more important when making decisions than freedom, which is false IMO.
If you had compared 2 free software projects like iD and JOSM that run without any proprietary code, then it might have been relevant.

I suggest declining support of any software project that is or requires proprietary software to run.

Cheers
pangoSE
PS I use 4 different editors to edit in the database: JOSM, OsmAnd, StreetComplete and rarely iD.


Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> skrev: (2 augusti 2020 10:28:22 CEST)
Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to 
> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. 
> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This 
> money is better spent on other uses.

The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player) to a supported one (AIR).

On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project is by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now. Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code on iD since then, you get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020) changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is kind of fun.

(I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets - 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days. That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not because they are magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500 then we would snap your hand off.)

Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of sustained work to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other stuff I believe will make P2 more sustainable into the future, and there is a hard deadline for that sustained work (i.e. Flash Player switch-off at the end of the year). It's not a project that can just be done in evenings here and there. That enables further, unfunded developments in the future, and in turn I hope the tradition of other editors taking inspiration from P2 can continue - it's not for nothing that JOSM has a Potlatch 2 style and a "Potlatch mode" for editing.

But you are, of course, welcome to develop and put forward a project to OSMF which you believe will have more bang for the buck. "Other uses" is easy to type but doesn't actually mean anything until you identify what those uses are, and crucially, find someone who is prepared to do them.

Richard
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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

James-2
Personally I use Linux and I fail to see why funding an application that isn't multiplatform. I choose to use linux as scripting/data manipulation is easier than windows.

I will not install adobe air as it's discontinued on linux since 2011(security bugs anyone?).  Development and bug fixes on AIR have come to a crawl on other platforms, if you can't seen it's impending death with Web2.0 as well as web assembly, clearly you cannot read the market.

On Sun., Aug. 2, 2020, 9:53 a.m. john whelan, <[hidden email]> wrote:
If Air is proprietary and an Adobe product I strongly suggest avoiding it purely from a security point of view.  Adobe does not have a good reputation in the security world.  Comments certainly have been made about Flash.

I don't think we should be encouraging the installation of software that could cause problems for our mappers.

I accept that for many who know potlatch well there is a cost of learning something new and many are experienced editors who we'd like to see continue but there are tradeoffs and I think security of the software we are asking people to install should be taken into account.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 08:54 pangoSE <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is this the platform you are targeting? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR

Its proprietary which makes it prone to the same fate as Flash Player. Why even consider such a move?

I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness (as a plugin perhaps) to JOSM?

The JOSM devs seem very helpful, supporting and have a friendly culture.

I suggest letting this code die as it lures people to install nonfree and therefore dangerous software. Alternatively that you team up with your 20 mio edits-peers and port the code to something that does not require proprietary software.

You did not present a single usecase that is not covered already by one of the other free software editors so I'm guessing you will have a hard time convincing your peers to team up around yet another editor, but I might be wrong.

I don't care about your ROI arguments because they are based on the not outspoken premise that economics of software development is more important when making decisions than freedom, which is false IMO.
If you had compared 2 free software projects like iD and JOSM that run without any proprietary code, then it might have been relevant.

I suggest declining support of any software project that is or requires proprietary software to run.

Cheers
pangoSE
PS I use 4 different editors to edit in the database: JOSM, OsmAnd, StreetComplete and rarely iD.


Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> skrev: (2 augusti 2020 10:28:22 CEST)
Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to 
> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. 
> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This 
> money is better spent on other uses.

The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player) to a supported one (AIR).

On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project is by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now. Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code on iD since then, you get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020) changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is kind of fun.

(I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets - 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days. That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not because they are magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500 then we would snap your hand off.)

Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of sustained work to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other stuff I believe will make P2 more sustainable into the future, and there is a hard deadline for that sustained work (i.e. Flash Player switch-off at the end of the year). It's not a project that can just be done in evenings here and there. That enables further, unfunded developments in the future, and in turn I hope the tradition of other editors taking inspiration from P2 can continue - it's not for nothing that JOSM has a Potlatch 2 style and a "Potlatch mode" for editing.

But you are, of course, welcome to develop and put forward a project to OSMF which you believe will have more bang for the buck. "Other uses" is easy to type but doesn't actually mean anything until you identify what those uses are, and crucially, find someone who is prepared to do them.

Richard
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Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

General Discussion mailing list
Also Linux is the future. Every application that cannot run under Linux will fail in the long run. Remember that Windows shouldn't be the main target platform anymore because it is dying and the society is to blame that they don't get it.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
From: James
To: john whelan
CC: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list


Personally I use Linux and I fail to see why funding an application that isn't multiplatform. I choose to use linux as scripting/data manipulation is easier than windows.

I will not install adobe air as it's discontinued on linux since 2011(security bugs anyone?).  Development and bug fixes on AIR have come to a crawl on other platforms, if you can't seen it's impending death with Web2.0 as well as web assembly, clearly you cannot read the market.

On Sun., Aug. 2, 2020, 9:53 a.m. john whelan, <[hidden email]> wrote:
If Air is proprietary and an Adobe product I strongly suggest avoiding it purely from a security point of view.  Adobe does not have a good reputation in the security world.  Comments certainly have been made about Flash.

I don't think we should be encouraging the installation of software that could cause problems for our mappers.

I accept that for many who know potlatch well there is a cost of learning something new and many are experienced editors who we'd like to see continue but there are tradeoffs and I think security of the software we are asking people to install should be taken into account.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 08:54 pangoSE <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is this the platform you are targeting? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR

Its proprietary which makes it prone to the same fate as Flash Player. Why even consider such a move?

I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness (as a plugin perhaps) to JOSM?

The JOSM devs seem very helpful, supporting and have a friendly culture.

I suggest letting this code die as it lures people to install nonfree and therefore dangerous software. Alternatively that you team up with your 20 mio edits-peers and port the code to something that does not require proprietary software.

You did not present a single usecase that is not covered already by one of the other free software editors so I'm guessing you will have a hard time convincing your peers to team up around yet another editor, but I might be wrong.

I don't care about your ROI arguments because they are based on the not outspoken premise that economics of software development is more important when making decisions than freedom, which is false IMO.
If you had compared 2 free software projects like iD and JOSM that run without any proprietary code, then it might have been relevant.

I suggest declining support of any software project that is or requires proprietary software to run.

Cheers
pangoSE
PS I use 4 different editors to edit in the database: JOSM, OsmAnd, StreetComplete and rarely iD.


Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> skrev: (2 augusti 2020 10:28:22 CEST)
Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to 
> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. 
> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This 
> money is better spent on other uses.

The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player) to a supported one (AIR).

On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project is by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now. Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code on iD since then, you get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020) changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is kind of fun.

(I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets - 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days. That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not because they are magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500 then we would snap your hand off.)

Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of sustained work to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other stuff I believe will make P2 more sustainable into the future, and there is a hard deadline for that sustained work (i.e. Flash Player switch-off at the end of the year). It's not a project that can just be done in evenings here and there. That enables further, unfunded developments in the future, and in turn I hope the tradition of other editors taking inspiration from P2 can continue - it's not for nothing that JOSM has a Potlatch 2 style and a "Potlatch mode" for editing.

But you are, of course, welcome to develop and put forward a project to OSMF which you believe will have more bang for the buck. "Other uses" is easy to type but doesn't actually mean anything until you identify what those uses are, and crucially, find someone who is prepared to do them.

Richard
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