Game and toy library

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Game and toy library

ChameleonScales
Hi all,

Game and toy libraries don't fit in any feature type.
They can be but are not necessarily:
- non-profit organizations
- child care facilities
- social faciilties
- toy stores
- libraries
- probably other things

So I think they should have their own feature type and tag.
How about
amenity:library=game_and_toy

Would that be possible?


Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.


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Re: Game and toy library

Paul Allen
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:24 PM ChameleonScales <[hidden email]> wrote:

amenity:library=game_and_toy

When I added one of these, five months ago, the most popular way of doing it was
amenity=toy_library, so that's what I went with.

--
Paul


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Re: Game and toy library

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 08:04, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:24 PM ChameleonScales <[hidden email]> wrote:

amenity:library=game_and_toy

When I added one of these, five months ago, the most popular way of doing it was
amenity=toy_library, so that's what I went with.

I was wondering the same question about mapping Family History libraries ie somewhere you go to study Family History, which has reference files etc

I was thinking:
amenity=library
"something" :-)=family_history 

type / library / resource ???

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Game and toy library

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Paul Allen


sent from a phone

> On 10. Oct 2018, at 00:03, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> When I added one of these, five months ago, the most popular way of doing it was
> amenity=toy_library, so that's what I went with.


+1, kiss


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Game and toy library

Warin
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
On 10/10/18 09:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 08:04, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:24 PM ChameleonScales <[hidden email]> wrote:

amenity:library=game_and_toy

When I added one of these, five months ago, the most popular way of doing it was
amenity=toy_library, so that's what I went with.

I was wondering the same question about mapping Family History libraries ie somewhere you go to study Family History, which has reference files etc

I was thinking:
amenity=library
"something" :-)=family_history 

type / library / resource ???

Family history (or genealogy) is not only researched in libraries, but also government record offices, national archives, newspaper records, cemetery records, wills, probate, city directories, trade directories etc.

I'm not certain how to go about tagging the availability of genealogy material.
genealogy=yes/vital_records/newspapers/religious_records/* ???

As a non physical tag it would have to be attached to something.. library, office etc.

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Re: Game and toy library

ChameleonScales
Thanks for your response. I have 2 problems with this:
1: Although the OSM wiki acknowledged the broadness of the word "library" according to Wikipedia, it still focused the tag value on books only ("A public library to borrow books from"). If this term was effectively used in a more generic way, we could have secondary values for each type of library (books, documents, musics, movies, games, etc...). This would make more sense to me.
2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these establishments are already suffering the misconception that they are only there for children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" would hardly make it better. If we used french language there would be nothing to argue about but since the "smart language" people decided that game mostly means video-game in the 21st century, I have no better idea than using "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. Do you see it differently?

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 8:58 AM, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 10/10/18 09:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 08:04, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:24 PM ChameleonScales <[hidden email]> wrote:

amenity:library=game_and_toy

When I added one of these, five months ago, the most popular way of doing it was
amenity=toy_library, so that's what I went with.

I was wondering the same question about mapping Family History libraries ie somewhere you go to study Family History, which has reference files etc

I was thinking:
amenity=library
"something" :-)=family_history 

type / library / resource ???

Family history (or genealogy) is not only researched in libraries, but also government record offices, national archives, newspaper records, cemetery records, wills, probate, city directories, trade directories etc.

I'm not certain how to go about tagging the availability of genealogy material.
genealogy=yes/vital_records/newspapers/religious_records/* ???

As a non physical tag it would have to be attached to something.. library, office etc.


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Re: Game and toy library

Marc Gemis
> 2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these establishments are already suffering the misconception that they are only there for children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" would hardly make it better. If we used french language there would be nothing to argue about but since the "smart language" people decided that game mostly means video-game in the 21st century, I have no better idea than using "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. Do you see it differently?

with "toys_and_games" I think the place can easily be mistaken for a
shop that sells toys and games. A key differentiator is the lending
part, not ?
It's my feeling that amenity=toys_and_games_library is more
understandable for people not familiar with the concept. Hopefully
this will also prevent incorrect translations.

m.

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Re: Game and toy library

Marc Gemis
--- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---

AFAIK, we do not use a colon in the values. If you want to indicate a
subcategory, it goes in a subkey.

so amenity=library;library=toys_and_games


But in this case we do not want data consumers that does not
understand the library-subkey  to treat a toys_and_games as a
book-library.
hence the idea to place it in the main key, as amenity=toys_and_games_library

m.


On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:37 PM ChameleonScales
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I'm not sure why "amenity=library:toys_and_games" is not a good idea but being new to this I'll leave that to more experienced contributors.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:29 PM, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > > 2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these establishments are already suffering the misconception that they are only there for children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" would hardly make it better. If we used french language there would be nothing to argue about but since the "smart language" people decided that game mostly means video-game in the 21st century, I have no better idea than using "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. Do you see it differently?
> >
> > with "toys_and_games" I think the place can easily be mistaken for a
> > shop that sells toys and games. A key differentiator is the lending
> > part, not ?
> > It's my feeling that amenity=toys_and_games_library is more
> > understandable for people not familiar with the concept. Hopefully
> > this will also prevent incorrect translations.
> >
> > m.
>
>

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Re: Game and toy library

ChameleonScales
> --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---

Indeed, fixed.


> we do not want data consumers that does not understand the library-subkey to treat a toys_and_games as a book-library.

That's partly why I proposed to rewrite the definition of the library tag and make it correspond more to the wikipedia definition, as it would allow to differentiate all sorts of libraries (e.g. library=books) but if you think there's no benefit in doing that in comparison to having full single values like toys_and_games_library, then I won't oppose.



‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:43 PM, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---
>
> AFAIK, we do not use a colon in the values. If you want to indicate a
> subcategory, it goes in a subkey.
>
> so amenity=library;library=toys_and_games
>
> But in this case we do not want data consumers that does not
> understand the library-subkey to treat a toys_and_games as a
> book-library.
> hence the idea to place it in the main key, as amenity=toys_and_games_library
>
> m.
>
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:37 PM ChameleonScales
> [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure why "amenity=library:toys_and_games" is not a good idea but being new to this I'll leave that to more experienced contributors.
> > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> > On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:29 PM, Marc Gemis [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > > > 2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these establishments are already suffering the misconception that they are only there for children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" would hardly make it better. If we used french language there would be nothing to argue about but since the "smart language" people decided that game mostly means video-game in the 21st century, I have no better idea than using "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. Do you see it differently?
> > >
> > > with "toys_and_games" I think the place can easily be mistaken for a
> > > shop that sells toys and games. A key differentiator is the lending
> > > part, not ?
> > > It's my feeling that amenity=toys_and_games_library is more
> > > understandable for people not familiar with the concept. Hopefully
> > > this will also prevent incorrect translations.
> > > m.



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Re: Game and toy library

ChameleonScales
Just found out about the proposal process: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process. Should I create a wiki page and follow the steps there?

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 4:24 PM, ChameleonScales <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---
>
> Indeed, fixed.
>
> > we do not want data consumers that does not understand the library-subkey to treat a toys_and_games as a book-library.
>
> That's partly why I proposed to rewrite the definition of the library tag and make it correspond more to the wikipedia definition, as it would allow to differentiate all sorts of libraries (e.g. library=books) but if you think there's no benefit in doing that in comparison to having full single values like toys_and_games_library, then I won't oppose.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:43 PM, Marc Gemis [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---
> > AFAIK, we do not use a colon in the values. If you want to indicate a
> > subcategory, it goes in a subkey.
> > so amenity=library;library=toys_and_games
> > But in this case we do not want data consumers that does not
> > understand the library-subkey to treat a toys_and_games as a
> > book-library.
> > hence the idea to place it in the main key, as amenity=toys_and_games_library
> > m.
> > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:37 PM ChameleonScales
> > [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > > I'm not sure why "amenity=library:toys_and_games" is not a good idea but being new to this I'll leave that to more experienced contributors.
> > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> > > On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:29 PM, Marc Gemis [hidden email] wrote:
> > >
> > > > > 2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these establishments are already suffering the misconception that they are only there for children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" would hardly make it better. If we used french language there would be nothing to argue about but since the "smart language" people decided that game mostly means video-game in the 21st century, I have no better idea than using "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. Do you see it differently?
> > > >
> > > > with "toys_and_games" I think the place can easily be mistaken for a
> > > > shop that sells toys and games. A key differentiator is the lending
> > > > part, not ?
> > > > It's my feeling that amenity=toys_and_games_library is more
> > > > understandable for people not familiar with the concept. Hopefully
> > > > this will also prevent incorrect translations.
> > > > m.
>
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Game and toy library

Marc Gemis
Yes,  that is the process that you should follow.  Please keep in mind the it is easier to introduce a new tag than to redefine one. Requiring that all current amenity=library have to be updated with a subtags library= book will likely get some comments. 

When I read the Wikipedia text on the osm wiki,  it seems that you can consider a car rental place as a library. This does not match the definition of the Dutch word bibliotheek which restricts it to books and .  They can be in electronic form though.  I guess all languages the use a word derived from the same Greek origin will have the same meaning. 

It would be very unnatural in those languages to say that something is a bibliotheek,  but you will only find toys and games. 

Regards

m

Op wo 10 okt. 2018 18:36 schreef ChameleonScales <[hidden email]>:
Just found out about the proposal process: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process. Should I create a wiki page and follow the steps there?

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 4:24 PM, ChameleonScales <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---
>
> Indeed, fixed.
>
> > we do not want data consumers that does not understand the library-subkey to treat a toys_and_games as a book-library.
>
> That's partly why I proposed to rewrite the definition of the library tag and make it correspond more to the wikipedia definition, as it would allow to differentiate all sorts of libraries (e.g. library=books) but if you think there's no benefit in doing that in comparison to having full single values like toys_and_games_library, then I won't oppose.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:43 PM, Marc Gemis [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---
> > AFAIK, we do not use a colon in the values. If you want to indicate a
> > subcategory, it goes in a subkey.
> > so amenity=library;library=toys_and_games
> > But in this case we do not want data consumers that does not
> > understand the library-subkey to treat a toys_and_games as a
> > book-library.
> > hence the idea to place it in the main key, as amenity=toys_and_games_library
> > m.
> > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:37 PM ChameleonScales
> > [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > > I'm not sure why "amenity=library:toys_and_games" is not a good idea but being new to this I'll leave that to more experienced contributors.
> > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> > > On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:29 PM, Marc Gemis [hidden email] wrote:
> > >
> > > > > 2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these establishments are already suffering the misconception that they are only there for children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" would hardly make it better. If we used french language there would be nothing to argue about but since the "smart language" people decided that game mostly means video-game in the 21st century, I have no better idea than using "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. Do you see it differently?
> > > >
> > > > with "toys_and_games" I think the place can easily be mistaken for a
> > > > shop that sells toys and games. A key differentiator is the lending
> > > > part, not ?
> > > > It's my feeling that amenity=toys_and_games_library is more
> > > > understandable for people not familiar with the concept. Hopefully
> > > > this will also prevent incorrect translations.
> > > > m.
>
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Game and toy library

Paul Allen
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 6:12 PM Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes,  that is the process that you should follow.  Please keep in mind the it is easier to introduce a new tag than to redefine one. Requiring that all current amenity=library have to be updated with a subtags library= book will likely get some comments.

There are other problem.  The icon for amenity=library is a book.  Until the rendering tools are
modified, using subtags like library=toys (the toy library near me doesn't have any games in its
catalogue, only games) and library=toys_and_games will get a book icon.  The rendering tools
can be changed to accommodate this but, as I understand it, such changes may greatly
increase the processing time to render map tiles whether or not they contain a library.

It's also worth pointing out that "library" derives from a word meaning books (or chest for books).
It's is incorrect to say that a toy library is like a library but for toys, it's like a LENDING library but
for toys.  I hate it when marketers misappropriate words, but it's far too late to do anything about it.

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Re: Game and toy library

bkil
Indeed, the Hungarian word for library ("könyvtár") can be literally
translated as "book repository".

We could decompose the functions of a library as a repository and
rental/lending for books and other media, usually operating on a
monthly subscription model, sometimes sponsored by local authorities.

amenity=repository
repository=print_media;ebook;music
lending=yes
fee:subscription=only
internet_access=terminal;wlan
...

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 8:02 PM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 6:12 PM Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes,  that is the process that you should follow.  Please keep in mind the it is easier to introduce a new tag than to redefine one. Requiring that all current amenity=library have to be updated with a subtags library= book will likely get some comments.
>
>
> There are other problem.  The icon for amenity=library is a book.  Until the rendering tools are
> modified, using subtags like library=toys (the toy library near me doesn't have any games in its
> catalogue, only games) and library=toys_and_games will get a book icon.  The rendering tools
> can be changed to accommodate this but, as I understand it, such changes may greatly
> increase the processing time to render map tiles whether or not they contain a library.
>
> It's also worth pointing out that "library" derives from a word meaning books (or chest for books).
> It's is incorrect to say that a toy library is like a library but for toys, it's like a LENDING library but
> for toys.  I hate it when marketers misappropriate words, but it's far too late to do anything about it.
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Game and toy library

Paul Allen
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:10 PM bkil <bkil.hu+[hidden email]> wrote:

We could decompose the functions of a library as a repository and
rental/lending for books and other media, usually operating on a
monthly subscription model, sometimes sponsored by local authorities.

That would be a sensible way to do it.   But we can't do an automated replacement as it's
not a one-to-one mapping: most amenity=library will be lending libraries but some will be
reference libraries.  The current scheme doesn't make a distinction so is incomplete information.
Doing an automated change would lead to the small number of reference libraries being incorrectly
tagged as lending libraries, or the large number of lending libraries not being marked as such.

If we were to start again and incorporate all we've learned, the tagging scheme would look very
different.  That isn't a realistic prospect, though.  We could try running the two schemes in
parallel and deprecate the old one, but old tags never die and rarely fade away.

--
Paul


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Re: Game and toy library

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Marc Gemis


sent from a phone

> On 10. Oct 2018, at 19:11, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> When I read the Wikipedia text on the osm wiki,  it seems that you can consider a car rental place as a library. This does not match the definition of the Dutch word bibliotheek which restricts it to books and .  They can be in electronic form though.  I guess all languages the use a word derived from the same Greek origin will have the same meaning.
>
> It would be very unnatural in those languages to say that something is a bibliotheek,  but you will only find toys and games.



it is exactly the same situation with the word “library”, which is derived from Latin librarium (book case). It doesn’t matter, the creator of the new word was either ignorant or didn’t care, if this word is now established I would use it. Everybody knows libraries, so it apparently made sense to borrow from this established word for a similar concept (but different “product”).
Cheers, Martin
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Re: Game and toy library

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Paul Allen


sent from a phone

> On 10. Oct 2018, at 20:01, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The rendering tools
> can be changed to accommodate this but, as I understand it, such changes may greatly
> increase the processing time to render map tiles whether or not they contain a library.


not true. It makes evaluation more complex though. You would have to be aware that not all amenity=library are libraries for books, and if you aren’t you will interpret some of them incorrectly as places where you can borrow books.

If you stand on the position that a toys library is a kind of library, subtagging is the way to go, if you think it is different to a library and has just the library in the name, you make a new main tag.

I am tending to the second, but we’ll probably also have to introduce a property because some normal libraries will have also a games department.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Game and toy library

ChameleonScales
Here's the proposal wiki page (I hope I did it correctly):
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/toy_and_game_library

I'll polish it tomorrow.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 10:12 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> sent from a phone
>
> > On 10. Oct 2018, at 20:01, Paul Allen [hidden email] wrote:
> > The rendering tools
> > can be changed to accommodate this but, as I understand it, such changes may greatly
> > increase the processing time to render map tiles whether or not they contain a library.
>
> not true. It makes evaluation more complex though. You would have to be aware that not all amenity=library are libraries for books, and if you aren’t you will interpret some of them incorrectly as places where you can borrow books.
>
> If you stand on the position that a toys library is a kind of library, subtagging is the way to go, if you think it is different to a library and has just the library in the name, you make a new main tag.
>
> I am tending to the second, but we’ll probably also have to introduce a property because some normal libraries will have also a games department.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Game and toy library

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:13 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10. Oct 2018, at 20:01, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The rendering tools
> can be changed to accommodate this but, as I understand it, such changes may greatly
> increase the processing time to render map tiles whether or not they contain a library.

not true. It makes evaluation more complex though.

I was going by my unreliable memory of a youtube video from a few years ago where the
rendering chain was explained.  It was very complex and, at least back then, even minor changes
could cause it to go a lot slower.  It could have changed since then (there were many transformation
stages) or I could be misremembering.
 
If you stand on the position that a toys library is a kind of library, subtagging is the way to go, if you think it is different to a library and has just the library in the name, you make a new main tag.

I am tending to the second,

Me too.  It may have "library" in the name but books are not its primary focus.  And "library" was only
included in the name because somebody thought that "library" meant "lending" because all the
libraries he/she visited were lending libraries not reference libraries.
 
but we’ll probably also have to introduce a property because some normal libraries will have also a games department.

No games in my local library, but they do have CDs and DVDs.  And also computers for accessing the
Internet.  A look at the online catalogue for my local toy library does not show any games or books.

Another point.  My local library does not charge for books, but does charge for CDs and DVDs.  The
toy library charges for all the toys, so it's more of a toy rental shop.   Of course, there may be some
book libraries that charge and some toy libraries that do not.

--
Paul


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Re: Game and toy library

SelfishSeahorse
In reply to this post by ChameleonScales
AFAIK ludothèques are just called 'toy libraries' in English.
Therefore i suggest tagging them amenity=toy_library (already 125 uses
by the way).

Regards
Markus

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Re: Game and toy library

Paul Allen
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:37 PM SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]> wrote:
AFAIK ludothèques are just called 'toy libraries' in English.

Looks like it.  Although I only learned of my local toy library less than a year ago and had no
idea such things existed prior to that.  I see the French came up with a more sensible name
for these things.  As they did with discothèque (it would have been called a music and dance library
if the English had named it).

Therefore i suggest tagging them amenity=toy_library (already 125 uses
by the way).

According to that reliable source (!) Wikipedia, toy libraries lend out toys, puzzles and games.
But my local toy library has only toys and puzzles (so its online catalogue claims).  So either
amenity=toy_library with sub-tags toy_library:toys=yes/no, toy_library:games=yes/no etc or
amenity=toy_library, amenity=toy_and_games_library, and all the other permutations (6 in
total with just toys, games and puzzles, perhaps more as toy libraries become more inventive).

I'd go with amenity=toy_library and the sub-tags, or maybe not even bother with the sub-tags.

--
Paul


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