Gates open/closed by default

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Gates open/closed by default

Stephen Colebourne
I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads:

- those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing)
- those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is
rarely if ever closed)

Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I
can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect.
One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with
the highway still access=private).

Any suggestions?

Stephen
PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

David Woolley
On 26/07/2019 10:46, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads:
>
> - those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing)
> - those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is
> rarely if ever closed)

I'd suggest opening_hours with a narrative time (assuming that they are
only used at very long intervals to avoid giving a public right of way.


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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
In reply to this post by Stephen Colebourne
If a gate opens automatically I would say it's an access=yes regardless of how the way is tagged.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Colebourne [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 26 July 2019 10:47
To: talk-gb OSM List
Subject: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default

I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads:

- those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing)
- those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is
rarely if ever closed)

Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I
can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect.
One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with
the highway still access=private).

Any suggestions?

Stephen
PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Gareth L

This was discussed on the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate with the suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html

 

Tagging things as access=private does impact routing a lot, so I’d evaluate that use carefully.

 

Gareth

 


From: Andy Robinson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 10:55:37 AM
To: 'Stephen Colebourne' <[hidden email]>; 'talk-gb OSM List' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
 
If a gate opens automatically I would say it's an access=yes regardless of how the way is tagged.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Colebourne [[hidden email]]
Sent: 26 July 2019 10:47
To: talk-gb OSM List
Subject: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default

I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads:

- those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing)
- those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is
rarely if ever closed)

Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I
can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect.
One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with
the highway still access=private).

Any suggestions?

Stephen
PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Colin Smale

On 2019-07-26 12:26, Gareth L wrote:

This was discussed on the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate with the suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html

Tagging things as access=private does impact routing a lot, so I'd evaluate that use carefully.

Access=* denotes the legal position, not the presence or absence of physical obstacles. Access=permissive is just as wrong as access=private as a proxy for gate=normally_open etc. Don't tag incorrectly for the renderer (or router!)

The state of openness can vary more widely: when it is shut, it may or may not be locked (perhaps you can open it yourself if required) and may consist of multiple gates with different rules - like one half open to allow you to leave the premises, but the other half shut; or the big gate shut to keep vehicles, and a small gate open for pedestrians. In these cases mapping a single gate is not going to allow the fine-grained information to be added easily.

 

 


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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Warin
In reply to this post by Gareth L
To bring a little international perspective to this.

In outback Australia the convention is "leave the gate as you found it". Unfortunately there are some who don't.
To cope with this problem some gates are hung so that they close under gravity.
To keep these open the farmer locks the gate open. Few people stop and try to close the gate, and are defeated by the lock anyway.

So indicating that a gate is locked .. says little as to if it is open or closed to me.

I think the 2 conditions need to be separated and not assumed;

locked = yes/no

closed = yes/no
Not certain how to handle automatic - I think they are mostly automatically closing only, some do both closing and opening and there is the possibility of automatically opening only. Err some may have automatic lock features too...

In addition some gates are fastened, but can be manually opened if you figure out the mechanism (some are quite inventive!). A problem I have found is on re-fastening these inventive mechanisms .. can take some time to remember it or reinvent it. Perhaps these should be called 'locked' and the above 'key_locked'???

On 26/07/19 20:26, Gareth L wrote:

This was discussed on the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate with the suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html

 

Tagging things as access=private does impact routing a lot, so I’d evaluate that use carefully.

 

Gareth

 


From: Andy Robinson [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 10:55:37 AM
To: 'Stephen Colebourne' [hidden email]; 'talk-gb OSM List' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
 
If a gate opens automatically I would say it's an access=yes regardless of how the way is tagged.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Colebourne [[hidden email]]
Sent: 26 July 2019 10:47
To: talk-gb OSM List
Subject: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default

I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads:

- those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing)
- those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is
rarely if ever closed)

Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I
can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect.
One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with
the highway still access=private).

Any suggestions?

Stephen
PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Colin Smale

I guess what we are trying to get out of this, is:

a) as a router, can i feel free to route "Joe Public" through here?

b) as a router, how much time penalty should i factor in for passing this gate?

Anything else?

 


On 2019-07-26 12:58, Warin wrote:

To bring a little international perspective to this.

In outback Australia the convention is "leave the gate as you found it". Unfortunately there are some who don't.
To cope with this problem some gates are hung so that they close under gravity.
To keep these open the farmer locks the gate open. Few people stop and try to close the gate, and are defeated by the lock anyway.

So indicating that a gate is locked .. says little as to if it is open or closed to me.

I think the 2 conditions need to be separated and not assumed;

locked = yes/no

closed = yes/no
Not certain how to handle automatic - I think they are mostly automatically closing only, some do both closing and opening and there is the possibility of automatically opening only. Err some may have automatic lock features too...

In addition some gates are fastened, but can be manually opened if you figure out the mechanism (some are quite inventive!). A problem I have found is on re-fastening these inventive mechanisms .. can take some time to remember it or reinvent it. Perhaps these should be called 'locked' and the above 'key_locked'???

On 26/07/19 20:26, Gareth L wrote:

This was discussed on the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate with the suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html

 

Tagging things as access=private does impact routing a lot, so I'd evaluate that use carefully.

 

Gareth

 


From: Andy Robinson [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 10:55:37 AM
To: 'Stephen Colebourne' [hidden email]; 'talk-gb OSM List' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
 
If a gate opens automatically I would say it's an access=yes regardless of how the way is tagged.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Colebourne [[hidden email]]
Sent: 26 July 2019 10:47
To: talk-gb OSM List
Subject: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default

I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads:

- those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing)
- those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is
rarely if ever closed)

Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I
can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect.
One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with
the highway still access=private).

Any suggestions?

Stephen
PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Warin
On 26/07/19 21:06, Colin Smale wrote:

I guess what we are trying to get out of this, is:

a) as a router, can i feel free to route "Joe Public" through here?

If the gate is open - yes.
If the gate is closed and unlocked - yes.
If the gate is closed and locked - no.

I would expect an access tag would be used if 'Joe' were not allowed or inhibited is some way e.g opening_hours, max_height.

b) as a router, how much time penalty should i factor in for passing this gate?


Depends. In Australia the gate would be an extension of a fence line. Fence lines are where animals tend to run at speed and collide with vehicles.
Even if open I tend to slow, if there is plant cover obscuring the view10 mph or less, even then I have had a roo collide with the side of my vehicle. I stopped, it took off and failed to render details... hit and run.

If closed and fastened I have spent a good 10 minutes figuring out how to open then close the thing! Most are a minute, but ..
The more difficult one can be seen as an intelligence test, if you pass the test you can enter :)

Anything else?

Good luck.
 


On 2019-07-26 12:58, Warin wrote:

To bring a little international perspective to this.

In outback Australia the convention is "leave the gate as you found it". Unfortunately there are some who don't.
To cope with this problem some gates are hung so that they close under gravity.
To keep these open the farmer locks the gate open. Few people stop and try to close the gate, and are defeated by the lock anyway.

So indicating that a gate is locked .. says little as to if it is open or closed to me.

I think the 2 conditions need to be separated and not assumed;

locked = yes/no

closed = yes/no
Not certain how to handle automatic - I think they are mostly automatically closing only, some do both closing and opening and there is the possibility of automatically opening only. Err some may have automatic lock features too...

In addition some gates are fastened, but can be manually opened if you figure out the mechanism (some are quite inventive!). A problem I have found is on re-fastening these inventive mechanisms .. can take some time to remember it or reinvent it. Perhaps these should be called 'locked' and the above 'key_locked'???

On 26/07/19 20:26, Gareth L wrote:

This was discussed on the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate with the suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html

 

Tagging things as access=private does impact routing a lot, so I'd evaluate that use carefully.

 

Gareth

 


From: Andy Robinson [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 10:55:37 AM
To: 'Stephen Colebourne' [hidden email]; 'talk-gb OSM List' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
 
If a gate opens automatically I would say it's an access=yes regardless of how the way is tagged.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Colebourne [[hidden email]]
Sent: 26 July 2019 10:47
To: talk-gb OSM List
Subject: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default

I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads:

- those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing)
- those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is
rarely if ever closed)

Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I
can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect.
One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with
the highway still access=private).

Any suggestions?

Stephen
PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open




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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Stephen Colebourne
In reply to this post by Colin Smale
On Fri, 26 Jul 2019 at 11:59, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2019-07-26 12:26, Gareth L wrote:
> This was discussed on the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate with the suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html

Thanks for the links. Unfortunately, there was no resolution to the
discussion AFAICT.

> Access=* denotes the legal position, not the presence or absence of physical obstacles. Access=permissive is just as wrong as access=private as a proxy for gate=normally_open etc. Don't tag incorrectly for the renderer (or router!)

I get that might be the official rule, but in many cases you can't
determine the *legal* position without being a lawyer and doing lots
of research. When doing ground surveys like I am, all I can say is
"can I go here", unless there is an explicit "private" sign. I
strongly suspect that most mappers use the access tag to mean "can I
go here" to some degree. I'd also suggest that it is much more
interesting to users of the data than the legal status.

I'd prefer to see a legal_access tag for those cases where the legal
position is clear (public footpath or "private" sign), with the access
tag treated as the more practical "can I go here". WIth that approach,
access=permissive vs access=private would cover open gates vs ones
where you have to buzz to go in. It would also cover an open
pedestrian gate alongside a closed vehicle gate without the need for a
second pedestrian-only highway/gate. I see legal_access as a little
like the designation=public_footpath tag, useful when you really know
the legal status. eg something like:

- legal_access=private, access=private: privately owned, can't get in,
eg gated/locked
- legal_access=private, access=permissive: privately owned but nothing
stops you going in (refined by foot/bicycle etc)
- access=yes: you can freely access it
- legal_access=public, access=yes: can freely access it and legally
public, eg public footpath or park

The previous thread suggested:
- status=open
- status=unlocked (to mean closed but unlocked)
- staus= locked
which isn't terrible, although it would need agreement to make it
worth tagging. (I don't personally buy into Warin's need to document a
locked open gate, but if it was needed, the status scheme would be
insufficient.)

Otherwise, I guess opening_hours is a possibility, but doesn't feel quite right.

Stephen

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Martin Wynne
In reply to this post by Stephen Colebourne
The tag is *barrier*=gate.

A permanently open gate isn't a barrier, so I don't think it should be
tagged as such. At least not across a way.

You could add a separate node to one side of the way, and tag that as a
gate.

A gate which is often open, but sometimes closed, is just an ordinary
gate. Many farm gates are like that. Potatoes this year = leave the gate
open. They are not likely to escape, and it saves getting down off the
tractor. Sheep this year = keep the gate closed.

cheers,

Martin.

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Dan S
Op vr 26 jul. 2019 om 13:15 schreef Martin Wynne <[hidden email]>:
>
> The tag is *barrier*=gate.
>
> A permanently open gate isn't a barrier, so I don't think it should be
> tagged as such. At least not across a way.

In OSM tagging, the definition isn't strongly tied to the literal
English meaning, but rather to how it's used and interpreted. Any
object that is tagged with "access=yes" and "barrier=*" could be said
to be "not a barrier" since access would seem to be permitted for
everyone. But we still use the barrier tag.

I'd also suggest that a "permanently open gate" is still a gate that
someone might close in future (e.g. if they change their access
policy). Also, there's usually a gate-post on each side of the way,
not just one side.

So yes, I tag permanently-open gates on the way itself.

Cheers
Dan

> You could add a separate node to one side of the way, and tag that as a
> gate.
>
> A gate which is often open, but sometimes closed, is just an ordinary
> gate. Many farm gates are like that. Potatoes this year = leave the gate
> open. They are not likely to escape, and it saves getting down off the
> tractor. Sheep this year = keep the gate closed.
>
> cheers,
>
> Martin.
>
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Re: Gates open/closed by default

David Woolley
In reply to this post by Stephen Colebourne
On 26/07/2019 12:57, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> unless there is an explicit "private" sign

There is no legal need for "private" signs.  The default assumption
should be that everything is private (even though the OSM default is
mainly the opposite).

In my part of the country, garden front walls are an endangered species;
that doesn't mean that the the front yard is public parking space.

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Silent Spike
In reply to this post by Martin Wynne
On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 1:15 PM Martin Wynne <[hidden email]> wrote:
The tag is *barrier*=gate.

A permanently open gate isn't a barrier, so I don't think it should be
tagged as such. At least not across a way.

It's a common mistake to interpret keys to match their corresponding word definitions. The gate exists and physically could be closed, therefore should be mapped as a normal gate.

I've encountered one situation like this in the past which I decided to tag as `permissive` at the time (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1823375898). My logic is that (while this is a privately owned gate) the owner of the gate has decided to leave it open for traffic to pass through the gate, therefore access through the gate is permissive, but could be taken away (therefore it would be false to tag it in a way that suggests access will always be available). Note that I also tagged vehicle access as private, because this is a gate which always seems to be half closed - but access could physically be granted for vehicles if needed.

I think the key is to tag the gate's access separate from the way's access (as Stephen suggests) because they are different things.

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by David Woolley

On 26/07/2019 13:28, David Woolley wrote:
> On 26/07/2019 12:57, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
>> unless there is an explicit "private" sign
>
> There is no legal need for "private" signs.  The default assumption
> should be that everything is private

... in England and Wales.  Scotland is somewhat more enlightened about
things:

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/act-and-access-code

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Colin Smale

On 2019-07-26 15:47, Andy Townsend wrote:


On 26/07/2019 13:28, David Woolley wrote:
On 26/07/2019 12:57, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
unless there is an explicit "private" sign

There is no legal need for "private" signs.  The default assumption should be that everything is private

... in England and Wales.
 
...unless it's "Access Land".
 

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Martin Wynne
Sometimes deciding what is and isn't a gate is tricky. Is this a gate?

  http://85a.uk/beware_bull_960x772.jpg

If not, what is it? Should it be mapped at all?

cheers,

Martin.

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Silent Spike
On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:38 PM Martin Wynne <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sometimes deciding what is and isn't a gate is tricky. Is this a gate?

To me that's very clearly a gate 🤷‍♂️ 

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Martin Wynne

26 Jul 2019, 14:14 by [hidden email]:
The tag is *barrier*=gate.

A permanently open gate isn't a barrier, so I don't think it should be tagged as such. At least not across a way.
Amber there is *highway*=path
and land*use*=water.

And *natural*=water used for man
made water bodies.

Literal meaning of key is rarely always true.

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Re: Gates open/closed by default

Warin
In reply to this post by Martin Wynne
On 26/07/19 22:14, Martin Wynne wrote:
> The tag is *barrier*=gate.
>
> A permanently open gate isn't a barrier, so I don't think it should be
> tagged as such. At least not across a way.

It is a barrier ready for use.

>
> You could add a separate node to one side of the way, and tag that as
> a gate.
>
> A gate which is often open, but sometimes closed, is just an ordinary
> gate. Many farm gates are like that. Potatoes this year = leave the
> gate open. They are not likely to escape, and it saves getting down
> off the tractor. Sheep this year = keep the gate closed.

As you say, the gate may be closed and it is good if the map alerts
drivers to that possibility.
I'd rather be warned and find it open than not warned and find it closed.

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