Grab using OSM Data for route preview

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Grab using OSM Data for route preview

Mishari Muqbil
Hi Everyone,

Good news overall for the project I suppose, Grab (SE Asia's Uber) is using data from OSM to do fare calculations as well as display route previews in their app, making it a high profile use case for OSM Data. Now if only they would attribute us.


--
Best regards
Mishari Muqbil

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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

Eugene Alvin Villar
On Wednesday, December 19, 2018, Mishari Muqbil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
> Good news overall for the project I suppose, Grab (SE Asia's Uber) is using data from OSM to do fare calculations as well as display route previews in their app, making it a high profile use case for OSM Data. Now if only they would attribute us.
>
> https://www.mishari.net/en/2018/12/grab-osm-data/

Hi Mishari,

I won't comment on whether the attribution to OSM is enough or not. That is something that is for the OSMF Licencing Working Group to decide. Please feel free to join the legal-talk mailing list[1] if you want to discuss the lack of attribution further. But it is already known that Grab uses and contributes to OSM.

Grab is a Gold Corporate Member of the OSM Foundation and they have a representative on the Advisory Board by virtue of their Gold corporate membership:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members

Grab has a dedicated mapping team helping to map and improve the road network in urban areas where they operate. Their mapping process is documented on the OSM Wiki and they keep track of their progress on GitHub:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab

And there has even been a recent article on Quartz on why Grab is doing this:


~Eugene


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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

Ervin Malicdem-2
They have been known NOT to attribute OSM since over 4 years back. [1]  Unfortunately, our community leaders back then is more assertive in other ways than those who potentially violate the attribution guidelines.

They were notified but instead of replying back for a resolution, they ceased using the map and got back to Google Maps.

It is a good thing though that they are now considering going back to the community by being a corporate member to the foundation. Probably they have already realized the importance of crowd source and open data to their business model.

I just hoped before they were given a seat as part of OSMF's ADVISORY board, these issues had been handled. 500 euros seems to clear all that history so soon.

But still, the issue remains that when the community does not care about these violations, then we are prone to such instance over and over. Thanks for seeing that this get to be known Mishari!



Ervin M.
Schadow1 Expeditions - A Filipino must not be a stranger to his own motherland.


On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 1:30 PM Eugene Alvin Villar <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wednesday, December 19, 2018, Mishari Muqbil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
> Good news overall for the project I suppose, Grab (SE Asia's Uber) is using data from OSM to do fare calculations as well as display route previews in their app, making it a high profile use case for OSM Data. Now if only they would attribute us.
>
> https://www.mishari.net/en/2018/12/grab-osm-data/

Hi Mishari,

I won't comment on whether the attribution to OSM is enough or not. That is something that is for the OSMF Licencing Working Group to decide. Please feel free to join the legal-talk mailing list[1] if you want to discuss the lack of attribution further. But it is already known that Grab uses and contributes to OSM.

Grab is a Gold Corporate Member of the OSM Foundation and they have a representative on the Advisory Board by virtue of their Gold corporate membership:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members

Grab has a dedicated mapping team helping to map and improve the road network in urban areas where they operate. Their mapping process is documented on the OSM Wiki and they keep track of their progress on GitHub:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab

And there has even been a recent article on Quartz on why Grab is doing this:


~Eugene

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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 19.12.2018 09:33, Ervin Malicdem wrote:
> I just hoped before they were given a seat as part of OSMF's ADVISORY
> board, these issues had been handled. 500 euros seems to clear all that
> history so soon.

A seat on the advisory board requires at least a "gold" level membership
which costs EUR 10000 per year.

I agree that we should hold our corporate members to even higher
standards than the average company out there, both in terms of
attribution (Grab's not the only corporate member taking a cavalier
attitude to that) and also in terms of how they are contributing data to
OSM, if any.

Bye
Frederik

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Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

SimonPoole

The LWG has added a work item for 2019 to update the guidance on attribution. The major part of the existing texts were written in the ramp up to the licence change in 2012 and are now over 6 years old. 

Lots of things have changed massively since then, be it the scope of OSM usage, to what kind of devices are used by the majority of users and it is obviously high time for some updates. And we will include guidance that we've previously given, but which may not be really documented anywhere. For example that in many circumstances "click to hide" is acceptable, but not "click to show".

So that there is no confusion about this, any such guidance will never be an exhaustive list of all what is compliant with the requirement of our licence (for Produced Works), just a list of what we have deemed to fulfill the terms and can safely be used:

However, if you Publicly Use a Produced Work, You must include a notice associated with

the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses,views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database, and that it is available under this License.

Simon

On 19.12.2018 09:42, Frederik Ramm wrote:
Hi,

On 19.12.2018 09:33, Ervin Malicdem wrote:
I just hoped before they were given a seat as part of OSMF's ADVISORY
board, these issues had been handled. 500 euros seems to clear all that
history so soon.
A seat on the advisory board requires at least a "gold" level membership
which costs EUR 10000 per year.

I agree that we should hold our corporate members to even higher
standards than the average company out there, both in terms of
attribution (Grab's not the only corporate member taking a cavalier
attitude to that) and also in terms of how they are contributing data to
OSM, if any.

Bye
Frederik



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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

dieterdreist
Hallo Christoph,

bist Du nicht im advisory board? Hast Du mind 10000 Eur bezahlt? Kommt mir unwahrscheinlich vor ;-)
Oder bringe ich da was durcheinander?

Gruß, Martin

sent from a phone

> On 19. Dec 2018, at 10:42, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> A seat on the advisory board requires at least a "gold" level membership which costs EUR 10000 per year.

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Insufficient map attribution by global players, WAS Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Ervin Malicdem-2
sending again

sent from a phone

> On 19. Dec 2018, at 09:33, Ervin Malicdem <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But still, the issue remains that when the community does not care about these violations, then we are prone to such instance over and over.


I wholeheartedly agree, people traditionally had not to fear anything for ignoring the license requirements and the way attribution should be given according to the legal FAQ (at least this is the impression I got in 11 years of OSM, please correct me if I’m wrong).

I just took another look whether facebook had fixed their maps in the meantime and noticed there is not only no attribution at all on the mobile map (on a fb page), there is also a link below the map called “get directions” which leads to google maps, while clicking the map picture itself opens Apple Maps (on an iPhone).

Similarly the default Mapbox mobile style (mb gl js) pretends to have to “hide” OpenStreetMap behind an “i” button on small screens, but they have found sufficient space to keep the mapbox logo visible all the time.

Apple Maps have removed the legal link in the left corner and show no attribution at all on the map, after clicking the “i” there is attribution to tomtom and the weather channel at the bottom of a settings page, but still no mention of OSM:


Is there someone at the OSMF looking into these cases? At least the major global players should be asked to attribute like we require.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Please get your quotes correct.


On 19.12.2018 10:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> Hallo Christoph,
>
> bist Du nicht im advisory board? Hast Du mind 10000 Eur bezahlt? Kommt mir unwahrscheinlich vor ;-)
> Oder bringe ich da was durcheinander?
>
> Gruß, Martin
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 19. Dec 2018, at 10:42, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> A seat on the advisory board requires at least a "gold" level membership which costs EUR 10000 per year.
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

dieterdreist


Am Mi., 19. Dez. 2018 um 11:28 Uhr schrieb Simon Poole <[hidden email]>:
Please get your quotes correct.



mea culpa, they must have changed something in the UI :o

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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Wednesday 19 December 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> bist Du nicht im advisory board? Hast Du mind 10000 Eur bezahlt?
> Kommt mir unwahrscheinlich vor ;-) Oder bringe ich da was
> durcheinander?

I am on the AB because the FOSSGIS sent me there (and neither i not the
FOSSGIS paid anything for that).  If i wanted to be there on my own
accord i would have to pay EUR 10k as well.

And to my knowledge no one ever accused the FOSSGIS or any other OSMF
local chapter for insufficient attribution. :-)

Glad to hear the LWG is working on clearer attribution guidelines -
please make sure to clearly condemn second rate attribution like on:

https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-07/china-hat-keinen-gebietsanspruch-auf-inseln-im-suedchinesischen-meer

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

Imre Samu

Techcrunch: "Grab is messing up the world’s largest mapping community’s data in Southeast Asia
Remote teams incorrectly overwrote data developed by volunteer mappers in Thailand"
Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18723138  ( Please somebody add our community view )



Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018. dec. 19., Sze, 12:10):
On Wednesday 19 December 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> bist Du nicht im advisory board? Hast Du mind 10000 Eur bezahlt?
> Kommt mir unwahrscheinlich vor ;-) Oder bringe ich da was
> durcheinander?

I am on the AB because the FOSSGIS sent me there (and neither i not the
FOSSGIS paid anything for that).  If i wanted to be there on my own
accord i would have to pay EUR 10k as well.

And to my knowledge no one ever accused the FOSSGIS or any other OSMF
local chapter for insufficient attribution. :-)

Glad to hear the LWG is working on clearer attribution guidelines -
please make sure to clearly condemn second rate attribution like on:

https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-07/china-hat-keinen-gebietsanspruch-auf-inseln-im-suedchinesischen-meer

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

Naveen Francis
Some discussion are happening in OSM Asia telegram group



@OpenStreetMapAsia


On Thu 20 Dec, 2018, 8:11 PM Imre Samu <[hidden email] wrote:

Techcrunch: "Grab is messing up the world’s largest mapping community’s data in Southeast Asia
Remote teams incorrectly overwrote data developed by volunteer mappers in Thailand"
Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18723138  ( Please somebody add our community view )



Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018. dec. 19., Sze, 12:10):
On Wednesday 19 December 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> bist Du nicht im advisory board? Hast Du mind 10000 Eur bezahlt?
> Kommt mir unwahrscheinlich vor ;-) Oder bringe ich da was
> durcheinander?

I am on the AB because the FOSSGIS sent me there (and neither i not the
FOSSGIS paid anything for that).  If i wanted to be there on my own
accord i would have to pay EUR 10k as well.

And to my knowledge no one ever accused the FOSSGIS or any other OSMF
local chapter for insufficient attribution. :-)

Glad to hear the LWG is working on clearer attribution guidelines -
please make sure to clearly condemn second rate attribution like on:

https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-07/china-hat-keinen-gebietsanspruch-auf-inseln-im-suedchinesischen-meer

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
Just to explain what we are planning: the current attribution guidance
on the OSMF website and on openstreetmap.org mostly goes back to before
2012 and there have only been some tweaks to the texts since them.

This on the one hand makes it difficult to find statements that we have
made on aspects of attribution that have cropped up since then (for
example the icon click to show attribution) and on the other hand it
doesn't take the myriad of use cases and technology changes that have
cropped up since then (just think about screen sizes for mobile devices)
in to account.

But even with new material it needs to be clear that the purpose of the
guidelines is to outline "safe" ways to provide appropriate attribution
and not to be an exhaustive list of all ways to so so.

Simon


On 19.12.2018 12:08, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> ...
> Glad to hear the LWG is working on clearer attribution guidelines -
> please make sure to clearly condemn second rate attribution like on:
>
> https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-07/china-hat-keinen-gebietsanspruch-auf-inseln-im-suedchinesischen-meer
>


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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

Christoph Hormann-2
On Saturday 22 December 2018, Simon Poole wrote:
>
> But even with new material it needs to be clear that the purpose of
> the guidelines is to outline "safe" ways to provide appropriate
> attribution and not to be an exhaustive list of all ways to so so.

Yes, but second rate attribution is such a clear cut case that it could
and should be covered.  In particular since the wording of the OdbL is
quite clear in attribution being not a technical formality but a matter
of actual de facto user experience.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

SimonPoole

On 22.12.2018 12:44, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> ..
> Yes, but second rate attribution is such a clear cut case that it could
> and should be covered.

..

I'm not quite sure what your point is, we've made it clear in the past
that click to show attribution is not acceptable outside of a situation
in which there is very little screen real estate, which essentially now
days is likely "never".

But just as clear we (as in the LWG) do not engage actively in
enforcement except when community level activities do not lead to the
required result (obviously anything else would not scale). Please feel
free to engage Die Zeit and if you do not get a satisfactory response
you can submit a properly documented case to the LWG and we will, time
permitting, take action.

Simon


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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 22. Dec 2018, at 22:55, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But just as clear we (as in the LWG) do not engage actively in
> enforcement except when community level activities do not lead to the
> required result (obviously anything else would not scale). Please feel
> free to engage Die Zeit and if you do not get a satisfactory response
> you can submit a properly documented case to the LWG and we will, time
> permitting, take action.


In this case we’re not discussing a single user (die Zeit) but the general default system of attribution from a third party service, like here those based on Mapbox. It is the mapbox default to require, on small screens, a click to see the osm attribution, but not for the mapbox trademark and logo, which are displayed in all circumstances. It seems more straightforward to fix this upstream rather than asking a myriad of downstream users to patch it. As it is with one of our most prominent users, maybe this specific issue should be discussed on the board?


Cheers, Martin



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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

SimonPoole
Am 26.12.2018 um 11:46 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:

> It seems more straightforward to fix this upstream rather than asking a myriad of downstream users to patch it. As it is with one of our most prominent users, maybe this specific issue should be discussed on the board?
>
This is not the way (as you know) the ODbL, or for what its worth any of
the CC licences, work, every distributor of an OSM derived work is
licensed directly from the OSMF and in the case of non-sub-licensable
content with similar licences the respective licensors.


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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

On 27. Dec 2018, at 14:04, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 26.12.2018 um 11:46 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:

It seems more straightforward to fix this upstream rather than asking a myriad of downstream users to patch it. As it is with one of our most prominent users, maybe this specific issue should be discussed on the board?

This is not the way (as you know) the ODbL, or for what its worth any of
the CC licences, work, every distributor of an OSM derived work is
licensed directly from the OSMF and in the case of non-sub-licensable
content with similar licences the respective licensors.


I didn’t mean to call for immediate legal action. If mapbox distributes a framework that doesn’t attribute in the default configuration to OSM as we prefer to, it seems it would be efficient to convince them rather than their hundreds of clients, even if they might not have legal liability from die Zeit showing an incorrect attribution (although you could argue, as they provide templates which are infringing the attribution requirements as defined and interpreted by ODbL and LWG, that they might be held liable as well (by their clients)).
As they use the same css attribution styles for their own maps as well, eg

it directly concerns them anyway.

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: Grab using OSM Data for route preview

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
It is ok to do it this also with other data
users who refuse to attribute OSM properly?

This mail finally mobilised me to complain 
to Mapbox about their practise of putting
large Mapbox logo and hiding any mention 
of OpenStreetMap behind click to view button.

But I am planning next action(s) as I do not
believe that single complaint will suffice
to stop this misattribution.


22 Dec 2018, 22:55 by [hidden email]:
Please feel
free to engage Die Zeit and if you do not get a satisfactory response
you can submit a properly documented case to the LWG and we will, time
permitting, take action.


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