Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

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Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Joseph Eisenberg
The team at OpenStreetMap Carto (the "Standard" map style shown on top at the main openstreetmap.org page) is considering rendering shop=food. This tag has not yet been approved and only has a stub wiki page, but it's usage has climbed over 2k on taginfo. Taginfo shows it is used in England and the USA, but it seems more popular in Central Europe, Japan and the Phillipines. I couldn’t find info on combinations used.

There are a number of similar shop types in use: shop=health_food, shop=general, shop=convenience, shop=supermarket, shop=bakery, shop=deli.

There is also shop=grocery, also not approved but it does have a more complete wiki description. 

I checked overpass turbo in London, New York, and San Franciso. The latter had no uses; London has the most. The first few shop=food on the list are 

1. “Nana’s Deli“, 
2. “The Chelsea Cake Shop”, 
3. “Green Apple”
4. “Holland And Barrett”

Those should be 1. shop=deli, 2. shop=bakery, 3. shop=greengrocer(?).  The fourth sells vitamis, herbal supplements and "health food", so could be shop=health_food. Farther down the list are a few shops with description “Bulgarian Food” and another “African and Zim food”, so could be specialty grocers, I haven’t confirmed

In New York, overpass turbo shows: 
1 “Busy Bee” note=Polish, 
2 “Whole Foods Market”
3 “Caputo’s Fine Foods”

According to Google, #1 is a grocery store, #2 is a supermarket,  #3 is an Italian Deli and grocer

So this tag isn't very specific yet.

But I do see the need for a way to tag specialty grocers (which sell mainly non-perishable food items), small groceries that are not greengrocers or convenience shops, and shops selling food times as well as a mix of general merchandise.

The wiki page for shop=general suggests it is "the only shop for kilometers", but in my town in Indonesia there are many shops that would otherwise qualify, because they sell groceries along with other essentials and some random hardware items. Others are more specifically grocery shops, but do not qualify as a supermarket or convenciene shop.

In British English usage, would shop=grocery or shop=food be more appropriate for these shorts of shops? They are probably not very common in England, but may be found in developing countries and perhaps in small towns without a supermarket. 

-Joseph

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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
7. Oct 2018 04:33 by [hidden email]:

So this tag isn't very specific yet


I used it because it was not specific for https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3033173319


It is selling only one type of food (pierogi) that are relatively easy to prepare but are

not edible immediately after buying (so it is not takeaway fast food).


I guess that in many cases people  were unaware about alternatives or there was no suitable tag

so they decided to use shop=food as generic one.


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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Yves-2
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Not sure it's a good idea to render it if no one really knows what it means :)
Yves
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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

bkil
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
How do you like this one?
shop=deli + cuisine=pierogi

On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 2:11 PM Mateusz Konieczny
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> 7. Oct 2018 04:33 by [hidden email]:
>
> So this tag isn't very specific yet
>
>
> I used it because it was not specific for https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3033173319
>
>
> It is selling only one type of food (pierogi) that are relatively easy to prepare but are
>
> not edible immediately after buying (so it is not takeaway fast food).
>
>
> I guess that in many cases people  were unaware about alternatives or there was no suitable tag
>
> so they decided to use shop=food as generic one.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 8. Oct 2018, at 20:17, bkil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> How do you like this one?
> shop=deli + cuisine=pierogi


+1 to a dedicated tag, e.g. deli=pierogi
Maybe you’d want to distinguish deli from ordinary pierogi though.
What about shop=food food=pierogi for the „usual“ pierogi shop?

I think it could eventually make sense to have a more generic shop=food tag for special food shops, which can then get the subtags that are needed for the local context. I just don’t think it should be used for generic food shops, as there is already a wide variety of tags in use that better describe the shop (convenience, supermarket, greengrocer, etc.). Maybe it should get a different name, because „food“ will be interpreted in all kinds of ways, including cooked meals.





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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Daniel Koć
W dniu 08.10.2018 o 23:00, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:

> +1 to a dedicated tag, e.g. deli=pierogi
> Maybe you’d want to distinguish deli from ordinary pierogi though.
> What about shop=food food=pierogi for the „usual“ pierogi shop?

I have tagged similar shops. They sell typical Polish cuisine, so no
deli at all (it might be a Polish shop in the USA). And there are not
only dumplings (pierogi), but also other things like pancakes etc. So
for me it's just shop=food + cuisine=local/polish.

> I think it could eventually make sense to have a more generic shop=food tag for special food shops, which can then get the subtags that are needed for the local context. I just don’t think it should be used for generic food shops, as there is already a wide variety of tags in use that better describe the shop (convenience, supermarket, greengrocer, etc.). Maybe it should get a different name, because „food“ will be interpreted in all kinds of ways, including cooked meals.

I'm all for having generic tags, because you don't always know the
details, so blind tagging might be damaging data. I think the wiki
definition should go like:

shop=food is for a shop selling food other than any of more specific type:
- shop=convenience - ...
- shop=greengrocer - only vegetables and fruits
- ...

This way we could have both general tag and specific tags properly
presented to the mappers.

I'm not familiar with English types of shops, I have to check what
grocery or convenience is to be sure. Simple term like shop=food is like
building=yes (I'm sure it's a building, but I don't know exact type). It
would be also good to have amenity=food (~100 uses now) when I'm not
sure what kind of eating place it is (just passing by and collecting
POIs), to not force people to guessing tags, which looks solid, but is
spoiling database.

--
"Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]



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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
In British English usage, would shop=grocery be appropriate for small shops that sell mainly non-perishable food and groceries?

In America we really would never call any shop a “food store” or “food shop.”

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 6:02 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 8. Oct 2018, at 20:17, bkil <bkil.hu+[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> How do you like this one?
> shop=deli + cuisine=pierogi


+1 to a dedicated tag, e.g. deli=pierogi
Maybe you’d want to distinguish deli from ordinary pierogi though.
What about shop=food food=pierogi for the „usual“ pierogi shop?

I think it could eventually make sense to have a more generic shop=food tag for special food shops, which can then get the subtags that are needed for the local context. I just don’t think it should be used for generic food shops, as there is already a wide variety of tags in use that better describe the shop (convenience, supermarket, greengrocer, etc.). Maybe it should get a different name, because „food“ will be interpreted in all kinds of ways, including cooked meals.





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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Daniel Koć
In the USA there are shops that sell custom fresh pizzas, but they are uncooked. You take the prepared pizza home and cook it yourself. In the western USA, the chain is named “Papa Murphy’s Take And Bake Pizza”

These have generally been tagged as restaurants or fastfood. In this case takeaway=only would be a great tag.

I think it's reasonable to consider these in the category of "places that sell prepared food" eg restaurant/fast_food, because you often need to reheat take-away items.
I would not think of these places as equivalent to a grocery or greengrocer.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 7:27 AM Daniel Koć <[hidden email]> wrote:
W dniu 08.10.2018 o 23:00, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:

> +1 to a dedicated tag, e.g. deli=pierogi
> Maybe you’d want to distinguish deli from ordinary pierogi though.
> What about shop=food food=pierogi for the „usual“ pierogi shop?

I have tagged similar shops. They sell typical Polish cuisine, so no
deli at all (it might be a Polish shop in the USA). And there are not
only dumplings (pierogi), but also other things like pancakes etc. So
for me it's just shop=food + cuisine=local/polish.

> I think it could eventually make sense to have a more generic shop=food tag for special food shops, which can then get the subtags that are needed for the local context. I just don’t think it should be used for generic food shops, as there is already a wide variety of tags in use that better describe the shop (convenience, supermarket, greengrocer, etc.). Maybe it should get a different name, because „food“ will be interpreted in all kinds of ways, including cooked meals.

I'm all for having generic tags, because you don't always know the
details, so blind tagging might be damaging data. I think the wiki
definition should go like:

shop=food is for a shop selling food other than any of more specific type:
- shop=convenience - ...
- shop=greengrocer - only vegetables and fruits
- ...

This way we could have both general tag and specific tags properly
presented to the mappers.

I'm not familiar with English types of shops, I have to check what
grocery or convenience is to be sure. Simple term like shop=food is like
building=yes (I'm sure it's a building, but I don't know exact type). It
would be also good to have amenity=food (~100 uses now) when I'm not
sure what kind of eating place it is (just passing by and collecting
POIs), to not force people to guessing tags, which looks solid, but is
spoiling database.

--
"Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]



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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

John Willis

On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:50 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

shop=food 

+ cuisine=local/polish.


-1

shop=food is called a market. we have that already.  cuisine=* is for restaurants and other non-shop places. 


amenity=fast_food
fast_food=take-n-bake (or whatever is decided: take-n-bake=yes/no/only, etc) 
cuisine=perogi


TL;DR: 

- make a “takaway” or take-n-bake” subtype of amenity=fast_food **for freshly-prepared-food items to be taken home, cooked, and served. ** 


- Unless it is the ingredients for making a food, or sells large amounts the food in bulk to take home, shop=* is wrong. Unless this pizza shop is selling you pizza ingredients or bulk boxes of frozen pizza - I don’t think it is a shop. 

- don’t pollute shop=* with restaurants and fast food. probably most uses of shop=ice_cream and shop=bakery are already not proper for the shop key, and most uses should be tagged amenity=fast_food + cuisine=* . a take-n-bake pizza shop or a shop selling a tray of freshly prepared, yet uncooked perogis or Gyoza is very close to a fast_food takeaway shop selling cooked pizza. 

- People should be free to define a business using amenity=restaurant or amenity=fast_food using any cuisine=* value - and tags that go against it (amenity=ice cream) should be depreciated. 

- being conscious of creating proper tags for “prepared food to be eaten now” that are distinct from shops that sell ingredients (supermarket, butcher shop) or bulk (shop=ice cream)  will solve both of the above issues. 

- not solving this issue with generic tags that are not conscious of this issue will lead to a lot of “reinventing the wheel” for each type of food and immense tagging pollution through confusion.  


~~~~~~~~~~~~~



I think it is better to use an existing amenity=fast_food or similar tag, and not to mix shop=* and cuisine  for the job. We have have fast food, restaurant, pub, cafe, and probably a couple others. perhaps we need a sub-tag of one of those to be “take-n-bake” type shop. 
 

make a tag solution for takeout / takeaway/ premade meals or items, otherwise you get a ball of confusion and disagreement, like the tagging for an ice cream shop:


"A place that sells ice cream and frozen yoghurt over the counter.”


and now there is

 shop=ice_cream   "For places selling ice cream to take home 

or 

amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream (? I guess these exist somewhere, where ice cream drinks are sold?) 

or 

amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (proper replacement for amenity=ice_cream)


There should be standardized tags for an ice cream parlor, where people sit down for an extended period of time and enjoy custom made ice cream treats at booths and tables. 

If this place sounds similar to similar to an ice cream “restaurant” - that is because it *is* a type of restaurant.

They are rare, but a proper ice cream parlor is basically an ice cream restaturant. 

amenity=restaurant + cuisine=ice_cream is an ice cream parlor. I don’t need to define a tag with “ice cream parlor” in it, because it is merely the “cuisine” offered. 

Baskin Robbins, Cold Stone, and a stand selling ice cream in cones/cups in a mall/storefront are all amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (replaces amenity=ice_cream)

a true shop=ice_cream is selling large amounts of pre-packaged or produced ice cream for you to take home - or the ingredients you make your own at home (eg: brewing_supply). 



****all the shops listed there have the primary purpose of selling you ingredients to make other things.**** 

Places where we sell prepared food to sit and eat is a restaurant. the coffee shop sells bagged coffee and brewing machines as it’s primary purpose - not brewed coffee drinks like a cafe. the bread shops we have in Japan would easily be amenity=fast_food + cuisine=bread - they are full of prepared food for quick meals or snacks - not shelves full of bread loaves or bags of rolls to make dinner with. There are a couple, but it’s not the focus of the place. I consider this an error in using the shop=key. 

I do not want this error to spread via a generic shop=food tag. 

*We made the distinction between restaurant and fast food for this very reason.* shop=* shouldn't be involved. 

A butcher shop isn't cuisine=meat for this reason - they are shops. 

I bring up ice cream not because I care so much about it - but it is a good example of tagging that that cannot be applied to other types, and can be fixed and be much more flexible using generic tags. 

We should create tags describe the type of *business*, as this greatly affects how the customer views the business. This also makes it impossible to tag actual “shops” - a “meat shop" (butcher) is possible because we use other tags to define where meat is consumed as food. 

There are some types of places where putting the type of "food" in the cuisine= tag would be silly -

- a tea shop sells loose tea in bags and other items for brewing tea, it is not a cafe.

- a honey shop sells jars of honey and various derived products, it is not “prepared food” nor a cafe selling drinks made with honey. 

These are appropriate to be a shop=* tag (shop=tea, shop=honey). 

This separates it from cuisine=* - because that is for places that serve ready to eat food. 

We already have vends= and produces= and other similar tags. if you want to use an existing one or make a new one to use with a [[  shop=[thing] + foo=[thing type]   ]] tag scheme, then =food is a bad value, and paring it with cuisine=* is worse, as it mixes the idea of food and cuisine into the shop key, which will lead to confusion and problems. 

Javbw 




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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Joseph Eisenberg
Javbw,
Thanks for the detailed discussion.
I think I agree with you that "take-and-bake" places are a type of restaurant or fast-food; that's how they are being tagged in the USA.

What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?

Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience, shop=general, shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?

I don't think shop=food is a good idea, but I do think there are shops that sell groceries but do not really fit in any of those 4 existing categories.
The other option would be to use shop=general for small groceries, because many of them also sell other nonperishable items, similar to a rural general store/shop.
But that might lead to some confusion too, and it wouldn't work well for a shop that specializes in selling Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean foods, as found in some big cities.

Joseph

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:28 AM John Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:50 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

shop=food 

+ cuisine=local/polish.


-1

shop=food is called a market. we have that already.  cuisine=* is for restaurants and other non-shop places. 


amenity=fast_food
fast_food=take-n-bake (or whatever is decided: take-n-bake=yes/no/only, etc) 
cuisine=perogi


TL;DR: 

- make a “takaway” or take-n-bake” subtype of amenity=fast_food **for freshly-prepared-food items to be taken home, cooked, and served. ** 


- Unless it is the ingredients for making a food, or sells large amounts the food in bulk to take home, shop=* is wrong. Unless this pizza shop is selling you pizza ingredients or bulk boxes of frozen pizza - I don’t think it is a shop. 

- don’t pollute shop=* with restaurants and fast food. probably most uses of shop=ice_cream and shop=bakery are already not proper for the shop key, and most uses should be tagged amenity=fast_food + cuisine=* . a take-n-bake pizza shop or a shop selling a tray of freshly prepared, yet uncooked perogis or Gyoza is very close to a fast_food takeaway shop selling cooked pizza. 

- People should be free to define a business using amenity=restaurant or amenity=fast_food using any cuisine=* value - and tags that go against it (amenity=ice cream) should be depreciated. 

- being conscious of creating proper tags for “prepared food to be eaten now” that are distinct from shops that sell ingredients (supermarket, butcher shop) or bulk (shop=ice cream)  will solve both of the above issues. 

- not solving this issue with generic tags that are not conscious of this issue will lead to a lot of “reinventing the wheel” for each type of food and immense tagging pollution through confusion.  


~~~~~~~~~~~~~



I think it is better to use an existing amenity=fast_food or similar tag, and not to mix shop=* and cuisine  for the job. We have have fast food, restaurant, pub, cafe, and probably a couple others. perhaps we need a sub-tag of one of those to be “take-n-bake” type shop. 
 

make a tag solution for takeout / takeaway/ premade meals or items, otherwise you get a ball of confusion and disagreement, like the tagging for an ice cream shop:


"A place that sells ice cream and frozen yoghurt over the counter.”


and now there is

 shop=ice_cream   "For places selling ice cream to take home 

or 

amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream (? I guess these exist somewhere, where ice cream drinks are sold?) 

or 

amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (proper replacement for amenity=ice_cream)


There should be standardized tags for an ice cream parlor, where people sit down for an extended period of time and enjoy custom made ice cream treats at booths and tables. 

If this place sounds similar to similar to an ice cream “restaurant” - that is because it *is* a type of restaurant.

They are rare, but a proper ice cream parlor is basically an ice cream restaturant. 

amenity=restaurant + cuisine=ice_cream is an ice cream parlor. I don’t need to define a tag with “ice cream parlor” in it, because it is merely the “cuisine” offered. 

Baskin Robbins, Cold Stone, and a stand selling ice cream in cones/cups in a mall/storefront are all amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (replaces amenity=ice_cream)

a true shop=ice_cream is selling large amounts of pre-packaged or produced ice cream for you to take home - or the ingredients you make your own at home (eg: brewing_supply). 



****all the shops listed there have the primary purpose of selling you ingredients to make other things.**** 

Places where we sell prepared food to sit and eat is a restaurant. the coffee shop sells bagged coffee and brewing machines as it’s primary purpose - not brewed coffee drinks like a cafe. the bread shops we have in Japan would easily be amenity=fast_food + cuisine=bread - they are full of prepared food for quick meals or snacks - not shelves full of bread loaves or bags of rolls to make dinner with. There are a couple, but it’s not the focus of the place. I consider this an error in using the shop=key. 

I do not want this error to spread via a generic shop=food tag. 

*We made the distinction between restaurant and fast food for this very reason.* shop=* shouldn't be involved. 

A butcher shop isn't cuisine=meat for this reason - they are shops. 

I bring up ice cream not because I care so much about it - but it is a good example of tagging that that cannot be applied to other types, and can be fixed and be much more flexible using generic tags. 

We should create tags describe the type of *business*, as this greatly affects how the customer views the business. This also makes it impossible to tag actual “shops” - a “meat shop" (butcher) is possible because we use other tags to define where meat is consumed as food. 

There are some types of places where putting the type of "food" in the cuisine= tag would be silly -

- a tea shop sells loose tea in bags and other items for brewing tea, it is not a cafe.

- a honey shop sells jars of honey and various derived products, it is not “prepared food” nor a cafe selling drinks made with honey. 

These are appropriate to be a shop=* tag (shop=tea, shop=honey). 

This separates it from cuisine=* - because that is for places that serve ready to eat food. 

We already have vends= and produces= and other similar tags. if you want to use an existing one or make a new one to use with a [[  shop=[thing] + foo=[thing type]   ]] tag scheme, then =food is a bad value, and paring it with cuisine=* is worse, as it mixes the idea of food and cuisine into the shop key, which will lead to confusion and problems. 

Javbw 



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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

John Willis
sounds like there are several different kinds of shops being discussed


- old old “markets”, from before there were super markets or convenience shops. 

- import/foreign foods shops catering to a local minority population or special cultural interest

- “markets” in developing countries.   


On Oct 9, 2018, at 11:56 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?

Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience, shop=general, shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?

I know the shops that you speak of. They were the local “everyday needs” shop - the market/grocery shop, very similar to a general store - but in an urban area. they were the only shop that had some of everything that wasn't covered by the Rice shop, fish shop, the butcher, and the produce stand:  curry mix, spices, dish soap, eggs, milk, toilet paper, etc. they would be shop=market, if that exists.They still exist in Japan, but are almost gone. The mom-n-pop ones are operated by people that live over the shop, and they are still operated for the locals to come sit there and gossip - but everyone goes to the supermarket 3 minutes away. they never look like they sell anything, and most have been shuttered, but a few are still there.  the only corner market I knew of was there are a few shop=general out in the mountains - but all the “markets” were put out of business by supermarkets a long time ago in California. I know of only one from personal experience. I hear of the “corner shop” or “bodegas” in New York - similar to the little corner market Bullitt buys his frozen dinners from in the movie in San Francisco - they seem to be disappearing in developed countries.

They are the proto-market: the Convenience store is more convenient, they have no departments, they are not specific enough to be a greengrocer nor have a stock of blankets, bullets, motor oil, and firewood like a general store - they are the “daily market”, not a giant supermarket - the corner store. 

a small market for daily living in developing countries feels like it would be a shop=general - a general store has a certain feeling when it is the only retail building in 40 miles in any direction, perhaps that is similar to the developing country shops. 

I think shop=general for the small developing countries’ markets or these fading local markets would be a good kludge, but it is not a fit **at all** for some specialty shop in a big city.

Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean foods, as found in some big cities.

This is a great question. there are all kinds of [asian country] markets in San Diego, and there are Philippine, Brazilian, and “Halal foods” shops here in my area of Japan. There are also chain shops catering to “foreign foods” : American snacks, British mints, South American Coffee, Italian pasta, etc. they almost always are around food. 

if there is a convenience store, a supermarket, a “halal foods” shop, and a butcher shop on the same block - that isn’t 4 “markets” - I think the idea of a “foreign foods" market is good - and then choose a theme or country, or religion, or similar tag would work.  . I don’t know how that aspect would be tagged - but the type of shop - the “import goods from some far off place catering to a minorty group that lives in the region” is a very very common occurrence, and very very rarely considered by the majority residents to be a place to go shopping (they all shop at the supermarket, as their ethnic and culturally specific goods are stocked there). I think having a shop=halal and a shop=Japanese would be wrong - as the only place they would be used is outside those areas, and confusing for people inside those areas. 

If we try to come up with a tag that fits all these uses, it won’t fit. We need to create shop=* tags to fit these separately. 

Javbw





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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Joseph Eisenberg
If you think the specialty shops should have there own tag, we could start using shop=specialty_grocery

But I would like someone from England to confirm if this is the specific British term.

I’m ok with using shop=general for the small shops in developing countries, if we can edit the wiki to allow use in towns and cities.

I don’t believe there is shop=market tag yet. There is amenity=marketplace for public markets, found in old town centers in Europe but much more common in the developing world. Probably shop=market would be too easily confused with marketplaces.
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:42 PM John Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:
sounds like there are several different kinds of shops being discussed


- old old “markets”, from before there were super markets or convenience shops. 

- import/foreign foods shops catering to a local minority population or special cultural interest

- “markets” in developing countries.   


On Oct 9, 2018, at 11:56 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?

Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience, shop=general, shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?

I know the shops that you speak of. They were the local “everyday needs” shop - the market/grocery shop, very similar to a general store - but in an urban area. they were the only shop that had some of everything that wasn't covered by the Rice shop, fish shop, the butcher, and the produce stand:  curry mix, spices, dish soap, eggs, milk, toilet paper, etc. they would be shop=market, if that exists.They still exist in Japan, but are almost gone. The mom-n-pop ones are operated by people that live over the shop, and they are still operated for the locals to come sit there and gossip - but everyone goes to the supermarket 3 minutes away. they never look like they sell anything, and most have been shuttered, but a few are still there.  the only corner market I knew of was there are a few shop=general out in the mountains - but all the “markets” were put out of business by supermarkets a long time ago in California. I know of only one from personal experience. I hear of the “corner shop” or “bodegas” in New York - similar to the little corner market Bullitt buys his frozen dinners from in the movie in San Francisco - they seem to be disappearing in developed countries.

They are the proto-market: the Convenience store is more convenient, they have no departments, they are not specific enough to be a greengrocer nor have a stock of blankets, bullets, motor oil, and firewood like a general store - they are the “daily market”, not a giant supermarket - the corner store. 

a small market for daily living in developing countries feels like it would be a shop=general - a general store has a certain feeling when it is the only retail building in 40 miles in any direction, perhaps that is similar to the developing country shops. 

I think shop=general for the small developing countries’ markets or these fading local markets would be a good kludge, but it is not a fit **at all** for some specialty shop in a big city.

Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean foods, as found in some big cities.

This is a great question. there are all kinds of [asian country] markets in San Diego, and there are Philippine, Brazilian, and “Halal foods” shops here in my area of Japan. There are also chain shops catering to “foreign foods” : American snacks, British mints, South American Coffee, Italian pasta, etc. they almost always are around food. 

if there is a convenience store, a supermarket, a “halal foods” shop, and a butcher shop on the same block - that isn’t 4 “markets” - I think the idea of a “foreign foods" market is good - and then choose a theme or country, or religion, or similar tag would work.  . I don’t know how that aspect would be tagged - but the type of shop - the “import goods from some far off place catering to a minorty group that lives in the region” is a very very common occurrence, and very very rarely considered by the majority residents to be a place to go shopping (they all shop at the supermarket, as their ethnic and culturally specific goods are stocked there). I think having a shop=halal and a shop=Japanese would be wrong - as the only place they would be used is outside those areas, and confusing for people inside those areas. 

If we try to come up with a tag that fits all these uses, it won’t fit. We need to create shop=* tags to fit these separately. 

Javbw




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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

AlaskaDave
You know, some people have advocated for a tag or, more properly, a set of tags that can enumerate the items sold by a given shop. The tag set uses the key "sells:*=yes/no. So if a given shop sells Korean food, one could tag it as shop=food (or shop=convenience or grocery, or general) and sells:korean_food=yes, or sells:pierogi=yes, etc.. The list can be as long as one wants and the items sold can be queried via search engines or what have you. A similar scheme has been proposed for bicycle and motorcycle shops that employ the service:bicycle:*=yes/no tag set so one can tag service:bicycle:repair=yes/no, service:bicycle:rental=yes/no, etc.

I'm not advocating this scenario but thought it might be of interest. I do think it would be nice to have some overriding methodology to govern the construction of these new tags we keep wanting to invent.

The sells key only has a few uses so far but for some reason it appeals to me; here's the Taginfo link: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=sells


Cheers,

Dave

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:33 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you think the specialty shops should have there own tag, we could start using shop=specialty_grocery

But I would like someone from England to confirm if this is the specific British term.

I’m ok with using shop=general for the small shops in developing countries, if we can edit the wiki to allow use in towns and cities.

I don’t believe there is shop=market tag yet. There is amenity=marketplace for public markets, found in old town centers in Europe but much more common in the developing world. Probably shop=market would be too easily confused with marketplaces.
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:42 PM John Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:
sounds like there are several different kinds of shops being discussed


- old old “markets”, from before there were super markets or convenience shops. 

- import/foreign foods shops catering to a local minority population or special cultural interest

- “markets” in developing countries.   


On Oct 9, 2018, at 11:56 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?

Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience, shop=general, shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?

I know the shops that you speak of. They were the local “everyday needs” shop - the market/grocery shop, very similar to a general store - but in an urban area. they were the only shop that had some of everything that wasn't covered by the Rice shop, fish shop, the butcher, and the produce stand:  curry mix, spices, dish soap, eggs, milk, toilet paper, etc. they would be shop=market, if that exists.They still exist in Japan, but are almost gone. The mom-n-pop ones are operated by people that live over the shop, and they are still operated for the locals to come sit there and gossip - but everyone goes to the supermarket 3 minutes away. they never look like they sell anything, and most have been shuttered, but a few are still there.  the only corner market I knew of was there are a few shop=general out in the mountains - but all the “markets” were put out of business by supermarkets a long time ago in California. I know of only one from personal experience. I hear of the “corner shop” or “bodegas” in New York - similar to the little corner market Bullitt buys his frozen dinners from in the movie in San Francisco - they seem to be disappearing in developed countries.

They are the proto-market: the Convenience store is more convenient, they have no departments, they are not specific enough to be a greengrocer nor have a stock of blankets, bullets, motor oil, and firewood like a general store - they are the “daily market”, not a giant supermarket - the corner store. 

a small market for daily living in developing countries feels like it would be a shop=general - a general store has a certain feeling when it is the only retail building in 40 miles in any direction, perhaps that is similar to the developing country shops. 

I think shop=general for the small developing countries’ markets or these fading local markets would be a good kludge, but it is not a fit **at all** for some specialty shop in a big city.

Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean foods, as found in some big cities.

This is a great question. there are all kinds of [asian country] markets in San Diego, and there are Philippine, Brazilian, and “Halal foods” shops here in my area of Japan. There are also chain shops catering to “foreign foods” : American snacks, British mints, South American Coffee, Italian pasta, etc. they almost always are around food. 

if there is a convenience store, a supermarket, a “halal foods” shop, and a butcher shop on the same block - that isn’t 4 “markets” - I think the idea of a “foreign foods" market is good - and then choose a theme or country, or religion, or similar tag would work.  . I don’t know how that aspect would be tagged - but the type of shop - the “import goods from some far off place catering to a minorty group that lives in the region” is a very very common occurrence, and very very rarely considered by the majority residents to be a place to go shopping (they all shop at the supermarket, as their ethnic and culturally specific goods are stocked there). I think having a shop=halal and a shop=Japanese would be wrong - as the only place they would be used is outside those areas, and confusing for people inside those areas. 

If we try to come up with a tag that fits all these uses, it won’t fit. We need to create shop=* tags to fit these separately. 

Javbw




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Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


Am Di., 9. Okt. 2018 um 00:52 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
In the USA there are shops that sell custom fresh pizzas, but they are uncooked. You take the prepared pizza home and cook it yourself. In the western USA, the chain is named “Papa Murphy’s Take And Bake Pizza”

These have generally been tagged as restaurants or fastfood. In this case takeaway=only would be a great tag.

I think it's reasonable to consider these in the category of "places that sell prepared food" eg restaurant/fast_food, because you often need to reheat take-away items.
I would not think of these places as equivalent to a grocery or greengrocer.


While they are not similar to a grocery store, they clearly aren't similar to a fast food or restaurant either, because you cannot go there and eat something. If you compare them to a butcher, they are somehow similar (butchers tend to sell prepared food which needs cooking at home for completion, at least in Germany). The fact that they prepare the pizza according to your wishes and fresh is a clear distinction compared to shops that sell only frozen food. I would suggest a proper category for these take and bake shops, maybe shop=take_and_bake? Or they would be a candidate for the food=take_and_bake shop for specialist food shops that aren't delis (would this be also applicable to ethnic food shops = food shops that sell food which is typical "somewhere else", e.g. chinese convenience stores outside china, or would a subtag for shop=convenience work better?).

Cheers,
Martin


 


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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


Am Di., 9. Okt. 2018 um 04:57 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
I think I agree with you that "take-and-bake" places are a type of restaurant or fast-food; that's how they are being tagged in the USA.




IMHO a restaurant usually requires tables (or culturally dependend maybe an alternative place to eat) and according to the cultural context some kind of seating or place to seat, and typically also a waiter/table service. Both, restaurants and fast food places require that you can get there and get something ready to eat. If all they sell are products that require further preparation / cooking, I would not tag them as restaurant or fast food (with the exception of places that provide a possibility where you can cook on the premises, and that are considered restaurants / fast food).

Cheers,
Martin



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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Jmapb
On 10/9/2018 6:55 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> Both, restaurants and fast food places require that you can get there
> and get something ready to eat. If all they sell are products that
> require further preparation / cooking, I would not tag them as
> restaurant or fast food (with the exception of places that provide a
> possibility where you can cook on the premises, and that are
> considered restaurants / fast food).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>

I agree... if the food is not edible when it's purchased, it isn't fast
food or restaurant food.

I'm favor of rendering shop=food. I think of it as a parallel syntax to
shop=clothes. A clothes shop can be further described with
clothes=women, clothes=hats etc. Or =clothes can be replaced with a
narrower value, like shop=shoes, shop=fashion. Likewise, it makes sense
to use shop=food (possibly in combination with food=*) if none of the
more specific food shop tags like deli, convenience, greengrocer, or
supermarket are a good fit.

J

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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

bkil
In reply to this post by John Willis
Why is shop=convenience not a proper tag for "the only retail building
in 40 miles radius"? Extra tags could be invented to highlight that it
has a larger variety of non-food items than usual, or we could
introduce a subtype with convenience=*.
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:42 AM John Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> sounds like there are several different kinds of shops being discussed
>
>
> - old old “markets”, from before there were super markets or convenience shops.
>
> - import/foreign foods shops catering to a local minority population or special cultural interest
>
> - “markets” in developing countries.
>
>
> On Oct 9, 2018, at 11:56 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?
>
>
> Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience, shop=general, shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?
>
>
> I know the shops that you speak of. They were the local “everyday needs” shop - the market/grocery shop, very similar to a general store - but in an urban area. they were the only shop that had some of everything that wasn't covered by the Rice shop, fish shop, the butcher, and the produce stand:  curry mix, spices, dish soap, eggs, milk, toilet paper, etc. they would be shop=market, if that exists.They still exist in Japan, but are almost gone. The mom-n-pop ones are operated by people that live over the shop, and they are still operated for the locals to come sit there and gossip - but everyone goes to the supermarket 3 minutes away. they never look like they sell anything, and most have been shuttered, but a few are still there.  the only corner market I knew of was there are a few shop=general out in the mountains - but all the “markets” were put out of business by supermarkets a long time ago in California. I know of only one from personal experience. I hear of the “corner shop” or “bodegas” in New York - similar to the little corner market Bullitt buys his frozen dinners from in the movie in San Francisco - they seem to be disappearing in developed countries.
>
> They are the proto-market: the Convenience store is more convenient, they have no departments, they are not specific enough to be a greengrocer nor have a stock of blankets, bullets, motor oil, and firewood like a general store - they are the “daily market”, not a giant supermarket - the corner store.
>
> a small market for daily living in developing countries feels like it would be a shop=general - a general store has a certain feeling when it is the only retail building in 40 miles in any direction, perhaps that is similar to the developing country shops.
>
> I think shop=general for the small developing countries’ markets or these fading local markets would be a good kludge, but it is not a fit **at all** for some specialty shop in a big city.
>
> Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean foods, as found in some big cities.
>
>
> This is a great question. there are all kinds of [asian country] markets in San Diego, and there are Philippine, Brazilian, and “Halal foods” shops here in my area of Japan. There are also chain shops catering to “foreign foods” : American snacks, British mints, South American Coffee, Italian pasta, etc. they almost always are around food.
>
> if there is a convenience store, a supermarket, a “halal foods” shop, and a butcher shop on the same block - that isn’t 4 “markets” - I think the idea of a “foreign foods" market is good - and then choose a theme or country, or religion, or similar tag would work.  . I don’t know how that aspect would be tagged - but the type of shop - the “import goods from some far off place catering to a minorty group that lives in the region” is a very very common occurrence, and very very rarely considered by the majority residents to be a place to go shopping (they all shop at the supermarket, as their ethnic and culturally specific goods are stocked there). I think having a shop=halal and a shop=Japanese would be wrong - as the only place they would be used is outside those areas, and confusing for people inside those areas.
>
> If we try to come up with a tag that fits all these uses, it won’t fit. We need to create shop=* tags to fit these separately.
>
> Javbw
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

John Willis


On Oct 10, 2018, at 4:39 AM, bkil <[hidden email]> wrote:

Why is shop=convenience not a proper tag for "the only retail building
in 40 miles radius"?

Usually, the small retail shop in a very remote place is tailored to the daily needs of locals and tourists who do activities in that area. they stock goods that the locals need for daily life. 

There is one general store I know of 

Someone has tagged it as a convenience store. 

A convenience store is is convenient not only because of its proximity, relative to the larger supermarkets, but also because of the limited subset of goods. 

A general store is a store of necessity - there is no choice but it. It is the only practical choice unless you want to drive 2 hours round trip into "town" and get something at a supermarket. 

Perhaps this is bias: I grew up with 7-11s in suburban San Diego and would encounter general stores only when out in the mountains or deserts - they carry a very different mix of goods. You usually can't buy firewood, snow sleds, or video rental at a traditional 7-11. In Japan, you can find convenience stores serving very small communities in remote areas - but they carry similar goods to the ones in urban centers. They feel like convenience stores. Shop=general has some of the same goods as a convenience store - but other goods as well. Goods that cater to tourism activities in the area and locals who have no other practical choice. The "general store" you see in old western frontier towns is a good example. 

Javbw 

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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Andy Mabbett
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 at 03:33, Joseph Eisenberg
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> [...]
> shop=food. This tag has not yet been approved

Approved by whom?

> I checked overpass turbo in London, New York, and San Franciso. The
> latter had no uses; London has the most. The first few shop=food on
> the list are
>
> 1. “Nana’s Deli“,
> 2. “The Chelsea Cake Shop”,
> 3. “Green Apple”
> 4. “Holland And Barrett”
>
> Those should be 1. shop=deli,

Have you done a survey? Adding "Deli" to a shop name does not make it
a delicatessen.

> 3. shop=greengrocer(?).

You give neither coordinates nor a link, but depending on the
location, Google finds "Green Apple Supermarket", a convenience store.
Again, this should not be changed without a survey.

> The fourth sells vitamis, herbal supplements and "health food", so could
> be shop=health_food.

This is part of a, international chain. What are other branches tagged as?

--
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@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

bkil
Then there's also
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Ashop%3Dnutrition_supplements
depending on main profile
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 12:17 PM Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 at 03:33, Joseph Eisenberg
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > shop=food. This tag has not yet been approved
>
> Approved by whom?
>
> > I checked overpass turbo in London, New York, and San Franciso. The
> > latter had no uses; London has the most. The first few shop=food on
> > the list are
> >
> > 1. “Nana’s Deli“,
> > 2. “The Chelsea Cake Shop”,
> > 3. “Green Apple”
> > 4. “Holland And Barrett”
> >
> > Those should be 1. shop=deli,
>
> Have you done a survey? Adding "Deli" to a shop name does not make it
> a delicatessen.
>
> > 3. shop=greengrocer(?).
>
> You give neither coordinates nor a link, but depending on the
> location, Google finds "Green Apple Supermarket", a convenience store.
> Again, this should not be changed without a survey.
>
> > The fourth sells vitamis, herbal supplements and "health food", so could
> > be shop=health_food.
>
> This is part of a, international chain. What are other branches tagged as?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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> Tagging mailing list
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