Help with substation data

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Help with substation data

Ricky Satomi
Hello all,

Couple questions about power data in OSM

Can we upload place data from google maps into the osm database? I know
there are lots of discussion on how not to use Google data in osm but I
can't find the specific part in google's TOS that prohibits using places
data in outside applications.

I have publicly available substation data provided by utility companies
that I would like to import / merge into the existing osm planet data.
Where do I start?

Thanks!


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Re: Help with substation data

Michael Heißmeier-2
Hello Ricky,

Ricky Satomi schrieb am 02.01.2015 um 19:30:
Hello all,

Couple questions about power data in OSM

Can we upload place data from google maps into the osm database? I know 
there are lots of discussion on how not to use Google data in osm but I 
can't find the specific part in google's TOS that prohibits using places 
data in outside applications.


No. Google data cannot be used for OpenStreetMap. The Google Terms of Service state that

2. Restrictions on Use. Unless you have received prior written authorization from Google (or, as applicable, from the provider of particular Content), you must not
(a) copy, translate, modify, or make derivative works of the Content or any part thereof;
...
(g) use the Products to create a database of places or other local listings information.

And a database is exactly what is behing OpenStreetMap. Furthermore, it would be a copy of the content and the maps produced from our database are considered derivative works. This is at least what I have learnt from various discussions on the mailing lists - I my self am no legal expert.

The difference to the Bing imagery used most frequently as background layer in the editors is that Microsoft explicitely granted permission to OpenStreetMap to do so.


Regards

Michael


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Re: Help with substation data

James Ewen
In reply to this post by Ricky Satomi
On Friday, January 2, 2015, Ricky Satomi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have publicly available substation data provided by utility companies that I would like to import / merge into the existing osm planet data. Where do I start?

In response to the second part of your post; is the publicly available data up encumbered by a copyright or other use restriction? There's a lot of data available to the public that is not available to be used in OSM. 

The first step is to determine if the data is legally available for inclusion in the OSM database. 

James 


--
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Re: Help with substation data

James Ewen
Up encumbered should have been unencumbered. I forgot to fight against the minimal dictionary in the iPad.

James

On Friday, January 2, 2015, James Ewen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Friday, January 2, 2015, Ricky Satomi <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;rickypsatomi@gmail.com&#39;);" target="_blank">rickypsatomi@...> wrote:

I have publicly available substation data provided by utility companies that I would like to import / merge into the existing osm planet data. Where do I start?

In response to the second part of your post; is the publicly available data up encumbered by a copyright or other use restriction? There's a lot of data available to the public that is not available to be used in OSM. 

The first step is to determine if the data is legally available for inclusion in the OSM database. 

James 


--
James
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--
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Re: Help with substation data

Stewart C. Russell
In reply to this post by Ricky Satomi

Hello Ricky,

> I have publicly available substation
> data provided by utility companies ...

Power and utility nerd here: what data have you got? Utilities have a huge amount of data that doesn't really belong on the map. Physical locations of substations, pylons, lines and other infrastructure are great. Some of the inside technical stuff (circuit  designations, voltages, breaker information) is maybe less useful, as it doesn't correspond to grounds verifiable information.

Good job in getting the data, incidentally. In some countries, power infrastructure falls under strict security controls. Even asking about it can get you into hot water.

Cheers
Stewart
(surrounded by wind turbines near Tilbury, ON. I'm sure I must've had some hand in some of the projects I can see here, but I've lost count ...)


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Re: Help with substation data

Ricky Satomi
In reply to this post by James Ewen
Hi Stewart,
The link for one of the datasets I'm working with is below. It seems to
be openly available, but there's not much discussion on sharing
restrictions. The dataset is designed for project developer use and is
freely downloadable and they're not trying to hide any data the way PG&E
(another local large utility) does. It's got substation and line data
with more voltage information than on the osm layer for that region.
There are also significant overlaps and differences between the osm set
and the utility-provided set which leads me to believe that there are
some inaccuracies in the osm layer that should be corrected.

https://www.sce.com/wps/wcm/connect/80608ac4-2f3a-4801-976c-dfd9d8db6b2c/SCE_DGInterconnectionMaps.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

Ideally, I'd like to run some sort of automated import, but given the
level of complexity with overlapping and incorrect data points, i'm not
sure if this'll work.
Thanks for the quick reply and the help!
--Rick

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Re: Help with substation data

Ricky Satomi
In reply to this post by James Ewen
Hi James,
The link for one of the datasets I'm working with is below. It seems to be openly available, but there's not much discussion on sharing restrictions. The dataset is designed for project developer use and is freely downloadable and they're not trying to hide any data the way PG&E (another local large utility) does.
https://www.sce.com/wps/wcm/connect/80608ac4-2f3a-4801-976c-dfd9d8db6b2c/SCE_DGInterconnectionMaps.pdf?MOD=AJPERES
Thanks for the quick reply and the help!
--Rick
On 1/2/2015 12:20 PM, James Ewen wrote:
Up encumbered should have been unencumbered. I forgot to fight against the minimal dictionary in the iPad.

James

On Friday, January 2, 2015, James Ewen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Friday, January 2, 2015, Ricky Satomi <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rickypsatomi@gmail.com');" target="_blank">rickypsatomi@...> wrote:

I have publicly available substation data provided by utility companies that I would like to import / merge into the existing osm planet data. Where do I start?

In response to the second part of your post; is the publicly available data up encumbered by a copyright or other use restriction? There's a lot of data available to the public that is not available to be used in OSM. 

The first step is to determine if the data is legally available for inclusion in the OSM database. 

James 


--
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VE6SRV


--
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VE6SRV


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Re: Help with substation data

Michael Heißmeier-2
In reply to this post by Ricky Satomi
Hello again,

I found a few helpful pages in our wiki on that subject:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ briefly discusses importing of data
from other sources under section 2

There is a fairly extensive record of datasources which have been investigated
so far: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Potential_Datasources mostly with a
short discussion why it is considered acceptable or not Having a look at it
might give you an impression about potential pitfalls.

If your data constitutes a substantial amount of objects then this would be
considered a bulk import which can only be performed after discussion. See more
details about this under http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import


I do not want to scare you from contributing but just make the point clear that
integrity of our data, both in terms of reliability and legal status, is of
prime concern in this project.

Regards

Michael

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Re: Help with substation data

Ricky Satomi
Oh excellent, I didn't know the potential datasources wiki existed. I understand there are legal and logistic concerns so I wanted to see what the community thought before I messed anything up. My impression is that the import function is generally frowned upon and not widely used

On 1/2/2015 12:52 PM, Michael Heißmeier wrote:
Hello again,

I found a few helpful pages in our wiki on that subject:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ briefly discusses importing of data from other sources under section 2

There is a fairly extensive record of datasources which have been investigated so far: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Potential_Datasources mostly with a short discussion why it is considered acceptable or not Having a look at it might give you an impression about potential pitfalls.

If your data constitutes a substantial amount of objects then this would be considered a bulk import which can only be performed after discussion. See more details about this under http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import


I do not want to scare you from contributing but just make the point clear that integrity of our data, both in terms of reliability and legal status, is of prime concern in this project.

Regards

Michael

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Re: Help with substation data

Michael Heißmeier
In reply to this post by Ricky Satomi
Ricky,

I would not consider an import as "frowned upon". Certainly it is not something
which occurs on a monthly basis. Imports I have been aware of in the past
include those of more-or-less all buildings in France as a donation by the state
cadastre office which occured a couple of years ago.

Imports occur more frequently in humanitarian context because often countries
affected by a crisis are not well mapped. Sometimes other organizations donate
some of their data to OSM and - after an additional mapping effort - get maps of
so far unseen quality to assist their staff on the ground. To give you an idea
of the "paperwork" involved, have a look at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_CAR_UNICEF_FOSA That document was
prepared by the initiator of the import as basis for the discussions on the
import mailing list and nicely presents all the items one has to keep in mind,
from obtaining a license to working out a tagging scheme. The more detailed
workflow document mentioned therein was necessary because it was designed to be
a community effort - cleaning the data could not have been performed by just one
person alone.

Regards

Michael

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Re: Help with substation data

Bill Ricker
In reply to this post by Ricky Satomi
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 4:19 PM, Ricky Satomi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I wanted to see what the community thought before I messed anything up.

Good thinking !

>  My impression is that the import function is generally frowned upon and not
> widely used

Correct. Several classes of issues have been seen -
* Legal issues as mentioned.
* bulk-imports and global-auto-edits that work ok where tested may
duplicate / damage details already provided locally by on-the-ground
mappers in some other areas.
* Many specialized datasets *even if legally importable* are better
provided as overlays on specialized render websites, with separate DB,
rather than including them in the main DB.
* etc

so such bulk operations are typically undertaken after only much
discussion and consultation with the experts on the other mailing
lists. (Failure to heed such has resulted in some (in)famous edit-wars
and flame wars, alas.)



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Re: Help with substation data

Michael Heißmeier-2
In reply to this post by Ricky Satomi
Ricky,

I would not consider an import as "frowned upon". Certainly it is not something
which occurs on a monthly basis. Imports I have been aware of in the past
include those of more-or-less all buildings in France as a donation by the state
cadastre office which occured a couple of years ago.

Imports occur more frequently in humanitarian context because often countries
affected by a crisis are not well mapped. Sometimes other organizations donate
some of their data to OSM and - after an additional mapping effort - get maps of
so far unseen quality to assist their staff on the ground. To give you an idea
of the "paperwork" involved, have a look at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_CAR_UNICEF_FOSA That document was
prepared by the initiator of the import as basis for the discussions on the
import mailing list and nicely presents all the items one has to keep in mind,
from obtaining a license to working out a tagging scheme. The more detailed
workflow document mentioned therein was necessary because it was designed to be
a community effort - cleaning the data could not have been performed by just one
person alone.

Regards

Michael

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Re: Help with substation data

Stewart C. Russell
In reply to this post by Ricky Satomi
On 2015-01-02 03:44 PM, Ricky Satomi wrote:
> The link for one of the datasets I'm working with is below. It seems
> to be openly available, but there's not much discussion on sharing
> restrictions.
I guess the map data you're ultimately referring to is the file at:

    http://www.sce.com/nrc/kml/SCEGenerationInterconnection.kmz

While that file is publicly available, and has no embedded copyright
statement, that's not really enough. In order to incorporate the data
into OSM, you'd need to be able to show that the data were released
under an open licence that's compatible with OpenStreetMap. The data may
be proprietary to SCE. You'd need to check with them to see if it had
been released under an open licence.

cheers,
 Stewart

(Seeing those lines and circuits reminds me of an amusing few weeks
stomping about in the western Arizona desert, trying to find a way to
connect a huge planned PV facility to sell into SCE. I'm glad my
then-employer didn't go ahead, as the state conservation department
wanted us to grade 3000+ acres/1200 ha of fragile desert ecosystem to
flat dust.)


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