Highway Tag Africa wiki

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Highway Tag Africa wiki

john whelan-2
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John

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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

Palolo
I led the discussion at the Highway Tagging workshop on the last day of SOTM Africa.
There was quite a bit of discussion and agreement that the existing tagging can be frustrating, however, we did not generate any new proposals for additional tags.
We did agree on some changes to the Africa Highway Tagging Guide which has now been updated to reflect not only Functional Class but also Construction class and width.
I am in the process of preparing a one page reference guide for use in carto-parties and mapathons and by new mappers.

General changes or clarifications:
A residential road serves people who live adjacent to it.
An unclassified road connects settlements and collects traffic from residential roads, tracks, and paths
A track allows people to access agriculture areas, but not connect to a settlement
A path can function like an unclassified highway, but is restricted to foot traffic or 2 wheeled vehicles
Highway = tertiary or secondary may be paved, but not by default.

Let me know if you have questions or suggestions.

Emmor
(Palolo)

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John

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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

john whelan-2
Looking at the wiki changes it looks like mainly clarifications I tend to not use tags higher than tertiary as I think they are best left to local knowledge or someone with more specialised knowledge.

Many Thanks

John

On 28 July 2017 at 23:25, Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
I led the discussion at the Highway Tagging workshop on the last day of SOTM Africa.
There was quite a bit of discussion and agreement that the existing tagging can be frustrating, however, we did not generate any new proposals for additional tags.
We did agree on some changes to the Africa Highway Tagging Guide which has now been updated to reflect not only Functional Class but also Construction class and width.
I am in the process of preparing a one page reference guide for use in carto-parties and mapathons and by new mappers.

General changes or clarifications:
A residential road serves people who live adjacent to it.
An unclassified road connects settlements and collects traffic from residential roads, tracks, and paths
A track allows people to access agriculture areas, but not connect to a settlement
A path can function like an unclassified highway, but is restricted to foot traffic or 2 wheeled vehicles
Highway = tertiary or secondary may be paved, but not by default.

Let me know if you have questions or suggestions.

Emmor
(Palolo)

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John

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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

Bjoern Hassler
Dear friends,

I think it would be really good to have a simple set of instructions for people at mapathons. Sure, these can always be amended as per instructions, but it would be nice to have a default set.

In our "MM Intro" presentation, we came up with this slide
where we try to give practical guidance, and try to delineate the features (i.e. give "negatives" rather than just the definition).

The slide says:
  • Can it be passed by a vehicle? → unclassified (or better) / residential / track (not path)
  • Does it connect areas where people live (running within and through villages)? → Unclassified or better (not residential / not track)
  • Does the road only run within a village or residential areas (not a through-road) → residential
  • Does the road only run to fields (agric. use)? → track
  • Is it not passable by car (4x4)? → path
  • Note: A metal roof arrives by vehicle → roads to houses with metal roofs are unclassified or residential (not path).
(The set is aimed at cases where M/trunk/1/2/3iary is already in existence, as is often the case.)

I do think that a set like this will help new mappers with decision making.

What do people think? I've copied it here https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Highway_Tag_Africa#Mailing_list in case people want to edit.

Bjoern

On 29 July 2017 at 12:09, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking at the wiki changes it looks like mainly clarifications I tend to not use tags higher than tertiary as I think they are best left to local knowledge or someone with more specialised knowledge.

Many Thanks

John

On 28 July 2017 at 23:25, Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
I led the discussion at the Highway Tagging workshop on the last day of SOTM Africa.
There was quite a bit of discussion and agreement that the existing tagging can be frustrating, however, we did not generate any new proposals for additional tags.
We did agree on some changes to the Africa Highway Tagging Guide which has now been updated to reflect not only Functional Class but also Construction class and width.
I am in the process of preparing a one page reference guide for use in carto-parties and mapathons and by new mappers.

General changes or clarifications:
A residential road serves people who live adjacent to it.
An unclassified road connects settlements and collects traffic from residential roads, tracks, and paths
A track allows people to access agriculture areas, but not connect to a settlement
A path can function like an unclassified highway, but is restricted to foot traffic or 2 wheeled vehicles
Highway = tertiary or secondary may be paved, but not by default.

Let me know if you have questions or suggestions.

Emmor
(Palolo)

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John

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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

pierzen
In reply to this post by Palolo
Hi Emmor

While I coordinated the Mali OSM Response in 2013, I did create the original version of the highway tagging for Mali to take account of the importance of the roads and tell contributors from northern countries to not classify looking at the condition of the road.

Later, contributors discussed about Africa in general and proposed to rename the wiki page as  Africa Highway Tagging Guide to represent all of Africa.

Villages and towns are of various sizes. To decide what is a residential or a tertiary road, is not always easy.  We need to decide which road should be reclassified to tertiary to establish a hierarchy that make sense.

At the beginning of the wiki page, I did add a note asking contributors to come on this list and discuss changes.

Sorry but I am a volunteer and I could not pay the flight to be part of the discussions at the SOTM Africa.

I invite you and the others to give us more details on the discussions and the modifications you made to the wiki page.

 regard
 
Pierre



De : Vao Matua <[hidden email]>
À : john whelan <[hidden email]>
Cc : "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Envoyé le : vendredi 28 juillet 2017 23h27
Objet : Re: [HOT] Highway Tag Africa wiki

I led the discussion at the Highway Tagging workshop on the last day of SOTM Africa.
There was quite a bit of discussion and agreement that the existing tagging can be frustrating, however, we did not generate any new proposals for additional tags.
We did agree on some changes to the Africa Highway Tagging Guide which has now been updated to reflect not only Functional Class but also Construction class and width.
I am in the process of preparing a one page reference guide for use in carto-parties and mapathons and by new mappers.

General changes or clarifications:
A residential road serves people who live adjacent to it.
An unclassified road connects settlements and collects traffic from residential roads, tracks, and paths
A track allows people to access agriculture areas, but not connect to a settlement
A path can function like an unclassified highway, but is restricted to foot traffic or 2 wheeled vehicles
Highway = tertiary or secondary may be paved, but not by default.

Let me know if you have questions or suggestions.

Emmor
(Palolo)

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John

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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

john whelan-2
Benoit Fournier was kind enough to send me a link that shows the differences.

"Hi John,

The wiki history can highlight:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Highway_Tag_Africa&type=revision&diff=1493742&oldid=1489377

Ben"

For the moment I suspect it might be better to just go over these rather than give a set of slides that is an interpretation.

The most important part to myself is the track / path / unclassified / residential differentiation.  I might ask the question if it goes to a field or the river and its wide enough to drive a 4 x 4 down and where a 4 x 4 can be driven is probably subjective then I think its a track.  Rereading the updated wiki do I get the impression if its narrower then the wiki is saying it should be a path instead?

Could someone perhaps identify what each change was and why it was made since changes to this page have a quite large impact and may require multiple training guides and tutorials to be updated never mind the poor validators.

Thanks John

On 29 July 2017 at 09:02, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Emmor

While I coordinated the Mali OSM Response in 2013, I did create the original version of the highway tagging for Mali to take account of the importance of the roads and tell contributors from northern countries to not classify looking at the condition of the road.

Later, contributors discussed about Africa in general and proposed to rename the wiki page as  Africa Highway Tagging Guide to represent all of Africa.

Villages and towns are of various sizes. To decide what is a residential or a tertiary road, is not always easy.  We need to decide which road should be reclassified to tertiary to establish a hierarchy that make sense.

At the beginning of the wiki page, I did add a note asking contributors to come on this list and discuss changes.

Sorry but I am a volunteer and I could not pay the flight to be part of the discussions at the SOTM Africa.

I invite you and the others to give us more details on the discussions and the modifications you made to the wiki page.

 regard
 
Pierre



De : Vao Matua <[hidden email]>
À : john whelan <[hidden email]>
Cc : "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Envoyé le : vendredi 28 juillet 2017 23h27
Objet : Re: [HOT] Highway Tag Africa wiki

I led the discussion at the Highway Tagging workshop on the last day of SOTM Africa.
There was quite a bit of discussion and agreement that the existing tagging can be frustrating, however, we did not generate any new proposals for additional tags.
We did agree on some changes to the Africa Highway Tagging Guide which has now been updated to reflect not only Functional Class but also Construction class and width.
I am in the process of preparing a one page reference guide for use in carto-parties and mapathons and by new mappers.

General changes or clarifications:
A residential road serves people who live adjacent to it.
An unclassified road connects settlements and collects traffic from residential roads, tracks, and paths
A track allows people to access agriculture areas, but not connect to a settlement
A path can function like an unclassified highway, but is restricted to foot traffic or 2 wheeled vehicles
Highway = tertiary or secondary may be paved, but not by default.

Let me know if you have questions or suggestions.

Emmor
(Palolo)

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John

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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

Palolo
In reply to this post by Bjoern Hassler
I have shared my presentation from SOTM Africa here:

There are quite a few photographs of different types of roads in Africa along with the aerial view.
 
At the workshop in Kampala there was a good deal of discussion and frustration expressed regarding inconsistencies in descriptions and usage. There was not a consensus that additional tags were needed, however, there was general agreement that the Africa Highway Tagging Guide needed some clarification.
There was a suggestion that the editing software could have regional tag exclusions. An example would be highway=living_street, a legally defined type road that is not found in Africa.

I like the guidance Bjoern gave us below and the nice presentation. My only suggestion would be that metal roofs could be one factor in determining path/residential/unclassified. I have seen many remote villages only accessible by path that have some metal roofs.  I think the same could be true in Nepal?

Here is a draft 1-page document for use in mapathons
The order of tag listing is "upside down" emphasizing the most common routes first.  highway=service should probably be added and primary could be dropped.

Let's continue this conversation.

Regards,

Emmor


On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:41 AM, Bjoern Hassler <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear friends,

I think it would be really good to have a simple set of instructions for people at mapathons. Sure, these can always be amended as per instructions, but it would be nice to have a default set.

In our "MM Intro" presentation, we came up with this slide
where we try to give practical guidance, and try to delineate the features (i.e. give "negatives" rather than just the definition).

The slide says:
  • Can it be passed by a vehicle? → unclassified (or better) / residential / track (not path)
  • Does it connect areas where people live (running within and through villages)? → Unclassified or better (not residential / not track)
  • Does the road only run within a village or residential areas (not a through-road) → residential
  • Does the road only run to fields (agric. use)? → track
  • Is it not passable by car (4x4)? → path
  • Note: A metal roof arrives by vehicle → roads to houses with metal roofs are unclassified or residential (not path).
(The set is aimed at cases where M/trunk/1/2/3iary is already in existence, as is often the case.)

I do think that a set like this will help new mappers with decision making.

What do people think? I've copied it here https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Highway_Tag_Africa#Mailing_list in case people want to edit.

Bjoern

On 29 July 2017 at 12:09, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking at the wiki changes it looks like mainly clarifications I tend to not use tags higher than tertiary as I think they are best left to local knowledge or someone with more specialised knowledge.

Many Thanks

John

On 28 July 2017 at 23:25, Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
I led the discussion at the Highway Tagging workshop on the last day of SOTM Africa.
There was quite a bit of discussion and agreement that the existing tagging can be frustrating, however, we did not generate any new proposals for additional tags.
We did agree on some changes to the Africa Highway Tagging Guide which has now been updated to reflect not only Functional Class but also Construction class and width.
I am in the process of preparing a one page reference guide for use in carto-parties and mapathons and by new mappers.

General changes or clarifications:
A residential road serves people who live adjacent to it.
An unclassified road connects settlements and collects traffic from residential roads, tracks, and paths
A track allows people to access agriculture areas, but not connect to a settlement
A path can function like an unclassified highway, but is restricted to foot traffic or 2 wheeled vehicles
Highway = tertiary or secondary may be paved, but not by default.

Let me know if you have questions or suggestions.

Emmor
(Palolo)

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John

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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

john whelan-2
>There was a suggestion that the editing software could have regional tag exclusions. An example would be highway=living_street, a legally defined type road that is not found in Africa.

There are 2,921 highways currently labelled living_street in Angola.  I suspect the problem is people do not read the documentation but copy the tags of another mapper and sometimes these are not as accurate as one might like.

Cheerio John

On 29 July 2017 at 10:48, Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have shared my presentation from SOTM Africa here:

There are quite a few photographs of different types of roads in Africa along with the aerial view.
 
At the workshop in Kampala there was a good deal of discussion and frustration expressed regarding inconsistencies in descriptions and usage. There was not a consensus that additional tags were needed, however, there was general agreement that the Africa Highway Tagging Guide needed some clarification.
There was a suggestion that the editing software could have regional tag exclusions. An example would be highway=living_street, a legally defined type road that is not found in Africa.

I like the guidance Bjoern gave us below and the nice presentation. My only suggestion would be that metal roofs could be one factor in determining path/residential/unclassified. I have seen many remote villages only accessible by path that have some metal roofs.  I think the same could be true in Nepal?

Here is a draft 1-page document for use in mapathons
The order of tag listing is "upside down" emphasizing the most common routes first.  highway=service should probably be added and primary could be dropped.

Let's continue this conversation.

Regards,

Emmor


On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:41 AM, Bjoern Hassler <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear friends,

I think it would be really good to have a simple set of instructions for people at mapathons. Sure, these can always be amended as per instructions, but it would be nice to have a default set.

In our "MM Intro" presentation, we came up with this slide
where we try to give practical guidance, and try to delineate the features (i.e. give "negatives" rather than just the definition).

The slide says:
  • Can it be passed by a vehicle? → unclassified (or better) / residential / track (not path)
  • Does it connect areas where people live (running within and through villages)? → Unclassified or better (not residential / not track)
  • Does the road only run within a village or residential areas (not a through-road) → residential
  • Does the road only run to fields (agric. use)? → track
  • Is it not passable by car (4x4)? → path
  • Note: A metal roof arrives by vehicle → roads to houses with metal roofs are unclassified or residential (not path).
(The set is aimed at cases where M/trunk/1/2/3iary is already in existence, as is often the case.)

I do think that a set like this will help new mappers with decision making.

What do people think? I've copied it here https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Highway_Tag_Africa#Mailing_list in case people want to edit.

Bjoern

On 29 July 2017 at 12:09, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking at the wiki changes it looks like mainly clarifications I tend to not use tags higher than tertiary as I think they are best left to local knowledge or someone with more specialised knowledge.

Many Thanks

John

On 28 July 2017 at 23:25, Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
I led the discussion at the Highway Tagging workshop on the last day of SOTM Africa.
There was quite a bit of discussion and agreement that the existing tagging can be frustrating, however, we did not generate any new proposals for additional tags.
We did agree on some changes to the Africa Highway Tagging Guide which has now been updated to reflect not only Functional Class but also Construction class and width.
I am in the process of preparing a one page reference guide for use in carto-parties and mapathons and by new mappers.

General changes or clarifications:
A residential road serves people who live adjacent to it.
An unclassified road connects settlements and collects traffic from residential roads, tracks, and paths
A track allows people to access agriculture areas, but not connect to a settlement
A path can function like an unclassified highway, but is restricted to foot traffic or 2 wheeled vehicles
Highway = tertiary or secondary may be paved, but not by default.

Let me know if you have questions or suggestions.

Emmor
(Palolo)

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John

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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

Bjoern Hassler
Hi Emmor,

The document is really nice, thanks for sharing. IMHO we really need clear guides like this,

Have put your document here, and added some comments.

Thanks,
Bjoern

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 at 16:35, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>There was a suggestion that the editing software could have regional tag exclusions. An example would be highway=living_street, a legally defined type road that is not found in Africa.

There are 2,921 highways currently labelled living_street in Angola.  I suspect the problem is people do not read the documentation but copy the tags of another mapper and sometimes these are not as accurate as one might like.

Cheerio John

On 29 July 2017 at 10:48, Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have shared my presentation from SOTM Africa here:

There are quite a few photographs of different types of roads in Africa along with the aerial view.
 
At the workshop in Kampala there was a good deal of discussion and frustration expressed regarding inconsistencies in descriptions and usage. There was not a consensus that additional tags were needed, however, there was general agreement that the Africa Highway Tagging Guide needed some clarification.
There was a suggestion that the editing software could have regional tag exclusions. An example would be highway=living_street, a legally defined type road that is not found in Africa.

I like the guidance Bjoern gave us below and the nice presentation. My only suggestion would be that metal roofs could be one factor in determining path/residential/unclassified. I have seen many remote villages only accessible by path that have some metal roofs.  I think the same could be true in Nepal?

Here is a draft 1-page document for use in mapathons
The order of tag listing is "upside down" emphasizing the most common routes first.  highway=service should probably be added and primary could be dropped.

Let's continue this conversation.

Regards,

Emmor


On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:41 AM, Bjoern Hassler <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear friends,

I think it would be really good to have a simple set of instructions for people at mapathons. Sure, these can always be amended as per instructions, but it would be nice to have a default set.

In our "MM Intro" presentation, we came up with this slide
where we try to give practical guidance, and try to delineate the features (i.e. give "negatives" rather than just the definition).

The slide says:
  • Can it be passed by a vehicle? → unclassified (or better) / residential / track (not path)
  • Does it connect areas where people live (running within and through villages)? → Unclassified or better (not residential / not track)
  • Does the road only run within a village or residential areas (not a through-road) → residential
  • Does the road only run to fields (agric. use)? → track
  • Is it not passable by car (4x4)? → path
  • Note: A metal roof arrives by vehicle → roads to houses with metal roofs are unclassified or residential (not path).
(The set is aimed at cases where M/trunk/1/2/3iary is already in existence, as is often the case.)

I do think that a set like this will help new mappers with decision making.

What do people think? I've copied it here https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Highway_Tag_Africa#Mailing_list in case people want to edit.

Bjoern

On 29 July 2017 at 12:09, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking at the wiki changes it looks like mainly clarifications I tend to not use tags higher than tertiary as I think they are best left to local knowledge or someone with more specialised knowledge.

Many Thanks

John

On 28 July 2017 at 23:25, Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
I led the discussion at the Highway Tagging workshop on the last day of SOTM Africa.
There was quite a bit of discussion and agreement that the existing tagging can be frustrating, however, we did not generate any new proposals for additional tags.
We did agree on some changes to the Africa Highway Tagging Guide which has now been updated to reflect not only Functional Class but also Construction class and width.
I am in the process of preparing a one page reference guide for use in carto-parties and mapathons and by new mappers.

General changes or clarifications:
A residential road serves people who live adjacent to it.
An unclassified road connects settlements and collects traffic from residential roads, tracks, and paths
A track allows people to access agriculture areas, but not connect to a settlement
A path can function like an unclassified highway, but is restricted to foot traffic or 2 wheeled vehicles
Highway = tertiary or secondary may be paved, but not by default.

Let me know if you have questions or suggestions.

Emmor
(Palolo)

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John

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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

Jens Mueller (Historical Research Services)
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
Hi!
 
I hope that you do not mind if I “jump into” your interesting and very important discussion.
 
I have had problems with the defintion of “unclassified roads” and “paths”.
Based on your defintion any roads which are not accessable by 4x4 wheel cars should be tagged as “path” (or as “tracks” if they only connect to agricultural places), even if they are the only roads which connect settlements. Is this correct?
 
Please take a short look (if you do not mind and have the time to do so) at a “OSM forum” discussion two years ago.
I mapped in Ethiopia mainly oin the municipality of “Yemezegn”.
There are several roads of different sizes there, as decribed in my posting.
 
A native Ethiopian did in-depth research in that area for his master thesis and stated:
“According to the observation data, two Kebeles namely Yemezegn and Gibtsawit are inaccessable by vehicles and hence, do not have easy access to public transport.”
And it seems as if he meant inaccesable by all (normal, including 4x4) vehicles.
If this is indeed true, should all roads be tagged as paths?
 
Any help and ideas would be greatly appreciated after this would help me a lot for other mapping projects in Ethiopia and DR Congo (near the Lake Tanganyika, where a lot of settlements only have access by vehicles via the Lake).
 
Thank you.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Ukundji
 
 
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 1:38 AM
Subject: [HOT] Highway Tag Africa wiki
 
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John


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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

john whelan-2
Part of the problem is the existing mapping and what is currently understood by end users.  Changes to the user interface no matter what it is are expensive in time.  Tutorials need to be translated if we are to continue to map in a coordinated way.

Routing software needs to know whether to route a motorcycle along the highway or not.  Are we saying that paths are usable by motorcycles?

Highway unclassified should be routable by anything but whether the highway is passable at a particular time of year or not is different.

The existing highway tagging needs cleaning up.  It's not as accurate as it could be.  Strangely enough HOT is helping here by having people go over existing parts of the map in a systematic way.  Some of the tracks connecting settlements are getting retagged to unclassified by the mappers or validators in the process.

Cheerio John



On 29 Jul 2017 1:57 pm, "Jens Mueller (Historical Research Services)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi!
 
I hope that you do not mind if I “jump into” your interesting and very important discussion.
 
I have had problems with the defintion of “unclassified roads” and “paths”.
Based on your defintion any roads which are not accessable by 4x4 wheel cars should be tagged as “path” (or as “tracks” if they only connect to agricultural places), even if they are the only roads which connect settlements. Is this correct?
 
Please take a short look (if you do not mind and have the time to do so) at a “OSM forum” discussion two years ago.
I mapped in Ethiopia mainly oin the municipality of “Yemezegn”.
There are several roads of different sizes there, as decribed in my posting.
 
A native Ethiopian did in-depth research in that area for his master thesis and stated:
“According to the observation data, two Kebeles namely Yemezegn and Gibtsawit are inaccessable by vehicles and hence, do not have easy access to public transport.”
And it seems as if he meant inaccesable by all (normal, including 4x4) vehicles.
If this is indeed true, should all roads be tagged as paths?
 
Any help and ideas would be greatly appreciated after this would help me a lot for other mapping projects in Ethiopia and DR Congo (near the Lake Tanganyika, where a lot of settlements only have access by vehicles via the Lake).
 
Thank you.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Ukundji
 
 
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 1:38 AM
Subject: [HOT] Highway Tag Africa wiki
 
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John


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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

Palolo
In reply to this post by Bjoern Hassler
Thanks for the comments.
The difference between unclassified versus residential is a challenge for many people, including myself.
The language in the unclassified is trying to describe the function of connecting settlements rather than a road where people live.
What is a settlement? Hamlet or larger? A few houses 500 meters away?
This is quite difficult for me in Ethiopia since 90% of the population lives in a rural setting.
I'm looking for ways to describe what these roads would look like in the imagery, suggestions?

As far as the 2921 living_streets in Angola that is exactly the type of thing that could be prevented if that tag value was not available in iD or JOSM when editing anywhere besides Germany or the Netherlands (or any other location where that was a legal description).

On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Bjoern Hassler <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Emmor,

The document is really nice, thanks for sharing. IMHO we really need clear guides like this,

Have put your document here, and added some comments.

Thanks,
Bjoern

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 at 16:35, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>There was a suggestion that the editing software could have regional tag exclusions. An example would be highway=living_street, a legally defined type road that is not found in Africa.

There are 2,921 highways currently labelled living_street in Angola.  I suspect the problem is people do not read the documentation but copy the tags of another mapper and sometimes these are not as accurate as one might like.

Cheerio John

On 29 July 2017 at 10:48, Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have shared my presentation from SOTM Africa here:

There are quite a few photographs of different types of roads in Africa along with the aerial view.
 
At the workshop in Kampala there was a good deal of discussion and frustration expressed regarding inconsistencies in descriptions and usage. There was not a consensus that additional tags were needed, however, there was general agreement that the Africa Highway Tagging Guide needed some clarification.
There was a suggestion that the editing software could have regional tag exclusions. An example would be highway=living_street, a legally defined type road that is not found in Africa.

I like the guidance Bjoern gave us below and the nice presentation. My only suggestion would be that metal roofs could be one factor in determining path/residential/unclassified. I have seen many remote villages only accessible by path that have some metal roofs.  I think the same could be true in Nepal?

Here is a draft 1-page document for use in mapathons
The order of tag listing is "upside down" emphasizing the most common routes first.  highway=service should probably be added and primary could be dropped.

Let's continue this conversation.

Regards,

Emmor


On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:41 AM, Bjoern Hassler <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear friends,

I think it would be really good to have a simple set of instructions for people at mapathons. Sure, these can always be amended as per instructions, but it would be nice to have a default set.

In our "MM Intro" presentation, we came up with this slide
where we try to give practical guidance, and try to delineate the features (i.e. give "negatives" rather than just the definition).

The slide says:
  • Can it be passed by a vehicle? → unclassified (or better) / residential / track (not path)
  • Does it connect areas where people live (running within and through villages)? → Unclassified or better (not residential / not track)
  • Does the road only run within a village or residential areas (not a through-road) → residential
  • Does the road only run to fields (agric. use)? → track
  • Is it not passable by car (4x4)? → path
  • Note: A metal roof arrives by vehicle → roads to houses with metal roofs are unclassified or residential (not path).
(The set is aimed at cases where M/trunk/1/2/3iary is already in existence, as is often the case.)

I do think that a set like this will help new mappers with decision making.

What do people think? I've copied it here https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Highway_Tag_Africa#Mailing_list in case people want to edit.

Bjoern

On 29 July 2017 at 12:09, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking at the wiki changes it looks like mainly clarifications I tend to not use tags higher than tertiary as I think they are best left to local knowledge or someone with more specialised knowledge.

Many Thanks

John

On 28 July 2017 at 23:25, Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
I led the discussion at the Highway Tagging workshop on the last day of SOTM Africa.
There was quite a bit of discussion and agreement that the existing tagging can be frustrating, however, we did not generate any new proposals for additional tags.
We did agree on some changes to the Africa Highway Tagging Guide which has now been updated to reflect not only Functional Class but also Construction class and width.
I am in the process of preparing a one page reference guide for use in carto-parties and mapathons and by new mappers.

General changes or clarifications:
A residential road serves people who live adjacent to it.
An unclassified road connects settlements and collects traffic from residential roads, tracks, and paths
A track allows people to access agriculture areas, but not connect to a settlement
A path can function like an unclassified highway, but is restricted to foot traffic or 2 wheeled vehicles
Highway = tertiary or secondary may be paved, but not by default.

Let me know if you have questions or suggestions.

Emmor
(Palolo)

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John

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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

Palolo
In reply to this post by Jens Mueller (Historical Research Services)
Ukundji

Thank you for you comments, yes Ethiopia needs to have an OSM restart.
For the last 10 months I was living in SNNPR and was not able to meet a single OSM contributor.
The infrastructure, unfortunately, makes OSM contributions and even use very difficult.
Ethiopians would be very interested in getting OSMAnd on their phones, however, it appears to be a restricted app.

In terms of paths to Ethiopian villages it is indeed the case that the primary or only transportation route to a population may only be by foot or donkey traffic on a path.
I think the perception that a path is not important is quite common and is not true.  Important or significant paths need to be mapped for commerce, food safety, and potential relief efforts, not only in Ethiopia but in other parts of Africa and places throughout the world.

The discussion about importance doesn't seem to have moved forward but could have some value.

At SOTM Africa earlier this month there was quite a bit of discussion on highway tags, including paths. Based on that discussion I have updated the Africa Highway Tagging guide to help clarify that a road has not only a construction class as well as an economic or social function.

Regards

Emmor
(Palolo

On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Jens Mueller (Historical Research Services) <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi!
 
I hope that you do not mind if I “jump into” your interesting and very important discussion.
 
I have had problems with the defintion of “unclassified roads” and “paths”.
Based on your defintion any roads which are not accessable by 4x4 wheel cars should be tagged as “path” (or as “tracks” if they only connect to agricultural places), even if they are the only roads which connect settlements. Is this correct?
 
Please take a short look (if you do not mind and have the time to do so) at a “OSM forum” discussion two years ago.
I mapped in Ethiopia mainly oin the municipality of “Yemezegn”.
There are several roads of different sizes there, as decribed in my posting.
 
A native Ethiopian did in-depth research in that area for his master thesis and stated:
“According to the observation data, two Kebeles namely Yemezegn and Gibtsawit are inaccessable by vehicles and hence, do not have easy access to public transport.”
And it seems as if he meant inaccesable by all (normal, including 4x4) vehicles.
If this is indeed true, should all roads be tagged as paths?
 
Any help and ideas would be greatly appreciated after this would help me a lot for other mapping projects in Ethiopia and DR Congo (near the Lake Tanganyika, where a lot of settlements only have access by vehicles via the Lake).
 
Thank you.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Ukundji
 
 
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 1:38 AM
Subject: [HOT] Highway Tag Africa wiki
 
I seem to recall some one posting recently that following discussion at the SOTM Africa in Uganda 2017 some changes had been made to the wiki.

Could some one highlight these. 

Thanks John


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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

pierzen
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
Hi Emmor

The Highway Tag Africa wiki page is used in Africa and other countries with similar realities. It has often been discussed since 2013, contributors being in favor in general to bring in this classification that insist on the role of roads vs the infrastructure and other aspects. Be assure that we do consider paths as important elements of mapping. Either in training sessions or for the various OSM Responses like Congo, Mali, Ebola, Nepal, Haiti, etc. we have always given instructions to trace paths either in urban areas or between villages and hamlets, mountains in Nepal, etc.

Comparing the wiki page July 9 vs July 22, I see that important segments of this wiki page have been rewritten.

As the architect of this page in 2013, I believe that the modifications made add confusion to the economic an social role of each class of highways.  Some descriptions added to each class about passable (access ?), plus road width and surface bring back the notion of infrastructure to describe each class. These additions should be discussed and we have to decide the best place where to introduce these concepts.

We can group roads in three blocks
1. Major interconnecting roads : highway=tertiary and over, that assure the intercity traffic or intra-urban collector traffic in major towns
2. Local interconnecting roads : highway=unclassified, interconnection at the local level, between villages / hamlets . There are also paths that connect villages.
3. Local roads and paths: higway=residential, track, path

When we make the distinction between roads and paths it is important to evaluate if a car or a 4x4 can circulate on this way. This is important to evaluate the population that have access to roadways, to evaluate if any access is possible by car to offer services or for emergency support.  If information about motorbike access is important, a tag motorcycle=yes could be added.

If a 4x4 can circulate on a way, we do not specify highway=path. If there are seasonal restrictions, (ie. at rainy season in Africa or winter in northern countries), we simply add a restriction to indicate the non-accessibiliy for this period.

The same with tracks. These are important. But we dont want contributors to mark all roads as track making the infrastructure aspects overrule the economic and social role. There are other keys to describe the other aspects.

See my analysis of the modifications comparing wiki page July 9 vs July 22.

The addition below to the wiki page is a bit confusing, not clear what we want to insist on here
  • Please note that a highway = track is not a more primitive construction class of a residential road

Road passable, road width and surface : Additions made to the various classes reduce the clarity.
1. road passable - we talk here of access permitted to piedestrians, motos, etc. For more clarity and keep the classification easier to understand, I suggest that this access description should be in a distinct section an not repeated in each class (ie. primary, secondary, tertiary, etc.)
2. road width - My objective writing this wiki page in 2013 was to insist about the distinction between the economic / social role of a road vs the infrastructures and road condition. This insistance on widths is confusing, bringing in the concept of the state of the road vs it's role. A note to say this is simply indicative?
3. surface - there are other sections to talk about surface - not necessary to add in each class.

Highway=secondary, New description is less clear
Original :
  • The roads connecting with regional capital cities and the towns of some importance (health services, commerce, etc.).
The new description, the first sentence added is less clear.
  • Major transportation routes connecting cities and large towns. Collector function in urban areas.

highway=tertiary, New description, the first sentence added is less clear.
Original
  • The roads interconnecting villages and the major streets in towns of some importance.
The new description added
  • Major transportation routes connecting towns and larger villages. Collector function in urban areas.

highway=unclassified
This class is used to distinguish rural roads interconnecting villages VS tracks going to the outskirts of villages. We should clarify that the section that cross a village, even if housings on each side should still be classified higway=unclassified.
The new definition is ambiguous
  • Minor collector roads that allow travel and commerce from paths and residential roads to and between settlements. Generally not residential



highway=residential
- Previous description was
  • Used for roads in the residential areas except the major streets that interconnect with various roads (ie. primary, secondary, tertiary). Should not be used to connect villages and hamlets.
- New description is unclear, adds confusion talking of urban and rural
  • In urban or rural setting roads which serve as an access to housing, without function of connecting settlements . Often lined with housing .

highway=track
- Previous description was
  • The small roads going outside the residential areas, mainly for '''agricultural and forestry''' purposes. Tracks can also be found in National Parks and Game Reserves. In general these roads do not have connecting function with other roads, and do not connect villages/hamlets.}}}
- New description, the first sentence is unclear
  • Access route from dwellings to agricultural and forestry areas. Roads within National Parks and Game Reserves may be tagged as tracks. No connection function between settlements.


Regard
 
 
Pierre



De : Vao Matua <[hidden email]>
À : Jens Mueller (Historical Research Services) <[hidden email]>
Cc : HOT Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
Envoyé le : Dimanche 30 juillet 2017 11h03
Objet : Re: [HOT] Highway Tag Africa wiki




Ukundji

Thank you for you comments, yes Ethiopia needs to have an OSM restart.
For the last 10 months I was living in SNNPR and was not able to meet a single OSM contributor.
The infrastructure, unfortunately, makes OSM contributions and even use very difficult.
Ethiopians would be very interested in getting OSMAnd on their phones, however, it appears to be a restricted app.

In terms of paths to Ethiopian villages it is indeed the case that the primary or only transportation route to a population may only be by foot or donkey traffic on a path.
I think the perception that a path is not important is quite common and is not true.  Important or significant paths need to be mapped for commerce, food safety, and potential relief efforts, not only in Ethiopia but in other parts of Africa and places throughout the world.

The discussion about importance doesn't seem to have moved forward but could have some value.

At SOTM Africa earlier this month there was quite a bit of discussion on highway tags, including paths. Based on that discussion I have updated the Africa Highway Tagging guide to help clarify that a road has not only a construction class as well as an economic or social function.

Regards

Emmor


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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

Palolo
Pierre,

Thank you for your thoughtful email.
I also want to thank you for your work over the years for OSM and HOT, I truly appreciate your efforts.
I also want to apologize if you take offense by my efforts, please know that I am trying to contribute in a way that improves the way OSM develops and refine resources to help HOT tasks.
A little background on myself; for more than 25 years I have worked as a geospatial professional and have designed and contributed to many GIS data construction efforts and have lead projects that transitioned from a legacy product to a more streamlined design. The frustration and mistakes associated with inconsistent design cannot be underestimated.
If we were to start the tagging design for OSM today I believe that our collective experience would give us something different than what we have now.  I realize that this is not possible and I am trying to help clarify the existing tagging to help ensure future contributions are consistent as possible.
It is unfortunate that you were not able to be in Kampala for the State of the Map Africa conference.  The discussion highway tagging workshop there was very positive and constructive, and did not have strong disagreements.
Following that discussion my intent in editing the wiki was an attempt to have the descriptions in a similar format without a long description.  I also am trying to develop a one page guide that can be used in a mapathon or carto-party as a tool to help new mappers. It would be best if the language of the guide and the wiki were the same.
In terms of classification I am very sensitive to the arrogance that sometimes can be communicated by expatriates regarding infrastructure in a developing countries. A rough road that would not be considered worth mapping in Europe could be a vital transportation link for a settlement were the same construction found in Africa. I have seen many roads tagged as highway=track when in reality the road should be either unclassified or even tertiary. 
We also have the challenge of describing major routes within an urban area. The words used in US transportation language are "collector" and "arterial" which imply that traffic is collected from several residential streets and then joined with other collectors to an arterial route. This is less of an issue than a rural setting in Africa, but still should be addressed in the wiki.

Again, I appreciate your efforts and hope you understand that I want to contribute to the OSM in a positive fashion.

Regards,

Emmor


On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Emmor

The Highway Tag Africa wiki page is used in Africa and other countries with similar realities. It has often been discussed since 2013, contributors being in favor in general to bring in this classification that insist on the role of roads vs the infrastructure and other aspects. Be assure that we do consider paths as important elements of mapping. Either in training sessions or for the various OSM Responses like Congo, Mali, Ebola, Nepal, Haiti, etc. we have always given instructions to trace paths either in urban areas or between villages and hamlets, mountains in Nepal, etc.

Comparing the wiki page July 9 vs July 22, I see that important segments of this wiki page have been rewritten.

As the architect of this page in 2013, I believe that the modifications made add confusion to the economic an social role of each class of highways.  Some descriptions added to each class about passable (access ?), plus road width and surface bring back the notion of infrastructure to describe each class. These additions should be discussed and we have to decide the best place where to introduce these concepts.

We can group roads in three blocks
1. Major interconnecting roads : highway=tertiary and over, that assure the intercity traffic or intra-urban collector traffic in major towns
2. Local interconnecting roads : highway=unclassified, interconnection at the local level, between villages / hamlets . There are also paths that connect villages.
3. Local roads and paths: higway=residential, track, path

When we make the distinction between roads and paths it is important to evaluate if a car or a 4x4 can circulate on this way. This is important to evaluate the population that have access to roadways, to evaluate if any access is possible by car to offer services or for emergency support.  If information about motorbike access is important, a tag motorcycle=yes could be added.

If a 4x4 can circulate on a way, we do not specify highway=path. If there are seasonal restrictions, (ie. at rainy season in Africa or winter in northern countries), we simply add a restriction to indicate the non-accessibiliy for this period.

The same with tracks. These are important. But we dont want contributors to mark all roads as track making the infrastructure aspects overrule the economic and social role. There are other keys to describe the other aspects.

See my analysis of the modifications comparing wiki page July 9 vs July 22.

The addition below to the wiki page is a bit confusing, not clear what we want to insist on here
  • Please note that a highway = track is not a more primitive construction class of a residential road

Road passable, road width and surface : Additions made to the various classes reduce the clarity.
1. road passable - we talk here of access permitted to piedestrians, motos, etc. For more clarity and keep the classification easier to understand, I suggest that this access description should be in a distinct section an not repeated in each class (ie. primary, secondary, tertiary, etc.)
2. road width - My objective writing this wiki page in 2013 was to insist about the distinction between the economic / social role of a road vs the infrastructures and road condition. This insistance on widths is confusing, bringing in the concept of the state of the road vs it's role. A note to say this is simply indicative?
3. surface - there are other sections to talk about surface - not necessary to add in each class.

Highway=secondary, New description is less clear
Original :
  • The roads connecting with regional capital cities and the towns of some importance (health services, commerce, etc.).
The new description, the first sentence added is less clear.
  • Major transportation routes connecting cities and large towns. Collector function in urban areas.

highway=tertiary, New description, the first sentence added is less clear.
Original
  • The roads interconnecting villages and the major streets in towns of some importance.
The new description added
  • Major transportation routes connecting towns and larger villages. Collector function in urban areas.

highway=unclassified
This class is used to distinguish rural roads interconnecting villages VS tracks going to the outskirts of villages. We should clarify that the section that cross a village, even if housings on each side should still be classified higway=unclassified.
The new definition is ambiguous
  • Minor collector roads that allow travel and commerce from paths and residential roads to and between settlements. Generally not residential



highway=residential
- Previous description was
  • Used for roads in the residential areas except the major streets that interconnect with various roads (ie. primary, secondary, tertiary). Should not be used to connect villages and hamlets.
- New description is unclear, adds confusion talking of urban and rural
  • In urban or rural setting roads which serve as an access to housing, without function of connecting settlements . Often lined with housing .

highway=track
- Previous description was
  • The small roads going outside the residential areas, mainly for '''agricultural and forestry''' purposes. Tracks can also be found in National Parks and Game Reserves. In general these roads do not have connecting function with other roads, and do not connect villages/hamlets.}}}
- New description, the first sentence is unclear
  • Access route from dwellings to agricultural and forestry areas. Roads within National Parks and Game Reserves may be tagged as tracks. No connection function between settlements.


Regard
 
 
Pierre



De : Vao Matua <[hidden email]>
À : Jens Mueller (Historical Research Services) <[hidden email]>
Cc : HOT Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
Envoyé le : Dimanche 30 juillet 2017 11h03
Objet : Re: [HOT] Highway Tag Africa wiki




Ukundji

Thank you for you comments, yes Ethiopia needs to have an OSM restart.
For the last 10 months I was living in SNNPR and was not able to meet a single OSM contributor.
The infrastructure, unfortunately, makes OSM contributions and even use very difficult.
Ethiopians would be very interested in getting OSMAnd on their phones, however, it appears to be a restricted app.

In terms of paths to Ethiopian villages it is indeed the case that the primary or only transportation route to a population may only be by foot or donkey traffic on a path.
I think the perception that a path is not important is quite common and is not true.  Important or significant paths need to be mapped for commerce, food safety, and potential relief efforts, not only in Ethiopia but in other parts of Africa and places throughout the world.

The discussion about importance doesn't seem to have moved forward but could have some value.

At SOTM Africa earlier this month there was quite a bit of discussion on highway tags, including paths. Based on that discussion I have updated the Africa Highway Tagging guide to help clarify that a road has not only a construction class as well as an economic or social function.

Regards

Emmor



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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

pierzen
Hi Emmor

What i wanted to insist - I believe that we should focus on the main goal of this wiki page (ie. the role of the road) and describe in other sections the other keys that describe physical aspects of the roads, the practicability, the access, etc.

For the North Mali Activation in 2013, we were faced with the problem of dirty main roads at rainy season with highway=track tag and duplicates where people make derivations while a section is impassable. There were no infrastructures and vehicules would move in parallel tracing 1, 2, 3 ... new segments. The remote contributors from northern countries did not understand this reality and traced all these segments and classified the main road has highway=track. This was the spark that brought in discussions on IRC and the HOT discussion list about writing a specific highway tag wiki page to support better routing information.

The OSM highway routing information helps the WFP and other organizations to monitor the distribution programmes across various countries and they collaborate to document the condition of the road. See this map for Sierra Leone in 2015. http://www.logcluster.org/map/sierra-leone-road-practicability-map-october-2015. It is now common for the various NGO's to use OSM maps on mobile devices. This info is also accessible to the population in general.

WFP images, Sierra Leone



De : Vao Matua <[hidden email]>
À : Pierre Béland <[hidden email]>
Cc : HOT Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
Envoyé le : jeudi 3 août 2017 10h34
Objet : Re: [HOT] Highway Tag Africa wiki

Pierre,

Thank you for your thoughtful email.
I also want to thank you for your work over the years for OSM and HOT, I truly appreciate your efforts.
I also want to apologize if you take offense by my efforts, please know that I am trying to contribute in a way that improves the way OSM develops and refine resources to help HOT tasks.
A little background on myself; for more than 25 years I have worked as a geospatial professional and have designed and contributed to many GIS data construction efforts and have lead projects that transitioned from a legacy product to a more streamlined design. The frustration and mistakes associated with inconsistent design cannot be underestimated.
If we were to start the tagging design for OSM today I believe that our collective experience would give us something different than what we have now.  I realize that this is not possible and I am trying to help clarify the existing tagging to help ensure future contributions are consistent as possible.
It is unfortunate that you were not able to be in Kampala for the State of the Map Africa conference.  The discussion highway tagging workshop there was very positive and constructive, and did not have strong disagreements.
Following that discussion my intent in editing the wiki was an attempt to have the descriptions in a similar format without a long description.  I also am trying to develop a one page guide that can be used in a mapathon or carto-party as a tool to help new mappers. It would be best if the language of the guide and the wiki were the same.
In terms of classification I am very sensitive to the arrogance that sometimes can be communicated by expatriates regarding infrastructure in a developing countries. A rough road that would not be considered worth mapping in Europe could be a vital transportation link for a settlement were the same construction found in Africa. I have seen many roads tagged as highway=track when in reality the road should be either unclassified or even tertiary. 
We also have the challenge of describing major routes within an urban area. The words used in US transportation language are "collector" and "arterial" which imply that traffic is collected from several residential streets and then joined with other collectors to an arterial route. This is less of an issue than a rural setting in Africa, but still should be addressed in the wiki.

Again, I appreciate your efforts and hope you understand that I want to contribute to the OSM in a positive fashion.

Regards,

Emmor


On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Emmor

The Highway Tag Africa wiki page is used in Africa and other countries with similar realities. It has often been discussed since 2013, contributors being in favor in general to bring in this classification that insist on the role of roads vs the infrastructure and other aspects. Be assure that we do consider paths as important elements of mapping. Either in training sessions or for the various OSM Responses like Congo, Mali, Ebola, Nepal, Haiti, etc. we have always given instructions to trace paths either in urban areas or between villages and hamlets, mountains in Nepal, etc.

Comparing the wiki page July 9 vs July 22, I see that important segments of this wiki page have been rewritten.

As the architect of this page in 2013, I believe that the modifications made add confusion to the economic an social role of each class of highways.  Some descriptions added to each class about passable (access ?), plus road width and surface bring back the notion of infrastructure to describe each class. These additions should be discussed and we have to decide the best place where to introduce these concepts.

We can group roads in three blocks
1. Major interconnecting roads : highway=tertiary and over, that assure the intercity traffic or intra-urban collector traffic in major towns
2. Local interconnecting roads : highway=unclassified, interconnection at the local level, between villages / hamlets . There are also paths that connect villages.
3. Local roads and paths: higway=residential, track, path

When we make the distinction between roads and paths it is important to evaluate if a car or a 4x4 can circulate on this way. This is important to evaluate the population that have access to roadways, to evaluate if any access is possible by car to offer services or for emergency support.  If information about motorbike access is important, a tag motorcycle=yes could be added.

If a 4x4 can circulate on a way, we do not specify highway=path. If there are seasonal restrictions, (ie. at rainy season in Africa or winter in northern countries), we simply add a restriction to indicate the non-accessibiliy for this period.

The same with tracks. These are important. But we dont want contributors to mark all roads as track making the infrastructure aspects overrule the economic and social role. There are other keys to describe the other aspects.

See my analysis of the modifications comparing wiki page July 9 vs July 22.

The addition below to the wiki page is a bit confusing, not clear what we want to insist on here
  • Please note that a highway = track is not a more primitive construction class of a residential road

Road passable, road width and surface : Additions made to the various classes reduce the clarity.
1. road passable - we talk here of access permitted to piedestrians, motos, etc. For more clarity and keep the classification easier to understand, I suggest that this access description should be in a distinct section an not repeated in each class (ie. primary, secondary, tertiary, etc.)
2. road width - My objective writing this wiki page in 2013 was to insist about the distinction between the economic / social role of a road vs the infrastructures and road condition. This insistance on widths is confusing, bringing in the concept of the state of the road vs it's role. A note to say this is simply indicative?
3. surface - there are other sections to talk about surface - not necessary to add in each class.

Highway=secondary, New description is less clear
Original :
  • The roads connecting with regional capital cities and the towns of some importance (health services, commerce, etc.).
The new description, the first sentence added is less clear.
  • Major transportation routes connecting cities and large towns. Collector function in urban areas.

highway=tertiary, New description, the first sentence added is less clear.
Original
  • The roads interconnecting villages and the major streets in towns of some importance.
The new description added
  • Major transportation routes connecting towns and larger villages. Collector function in urban areas.

highway=unclassified
This class is used to distinguish rural roads interconnecting villages VS tracks going to the outskirts of villages. We should clarify that the section that cross a village, even if housings on each side should still be classified higway=unclassified.
The new definition is ambiguous
  • Minor collector roads that allow travel and commerce from paths and residential roads to and between settlements. Generally not residential



highway=residential
- Previous description was
  • Used for roads in the residential areas except the major streets that interconnect with various roads (ie. primary, secondary, tertiary). Should not be used to connect villages and hamlets.
- New description is unclear, adds confusion talking of urban and rural
  • In urban or rural setting roads which serve as an access to housing, without function of connecting settlements . Often lined with housing .

highway=track
- Previous description was
  • The small roads going outside the residential areas, mainly for '''agricultural and forestry''' purposes. Tracks can also be found in National Parks and Game Reserves. In general these roads do not have connecting function with other roads, and do not connect villages/hamlets.}}}
- New description, the first sentence is unclear
  • Access route from dwellings to agricultural and forestry areas. Roads within National Parks and Game Reserves may be tagged as tracks. No connection function between settlements.


Regard
 
 
Pierre



De : Vao Matua <[hidden email]>
À : Jens Mueller (Historical Research Services) <[hidden email]>
Cc : HOT Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
Envoyé le : Dimanche 30 juillet 2017 11h03
Objet : Re: [HOT] Highway Tag Africa wiki




Ukundji

Thank you for you comments, yes Ethiopia needs to have an OSM restart.
For the last 10 months I was living in SNNPR and was not able to meet a single OSM contributor.
The infrastructure, unfortunately, makes OSM contributions and even use very difficult.
Ethiopians would be very interested in getting OSMAnd on their phones, however, it appears to be a restricted app.

In terms of paths to Ethiopian villages it is indeed the case that the primary or only transportation route to a population may only be by foot or donkey traffic on a path.
I think the perception that a path is not important is quite common and is not true.  Important or significant paths need to be mapped for commerce, food safety, and potential relief efforts, not only in Ethiopia but in other parts of Africa and places throughout the world.

The discussion about importance doesn't seem to have moved forward but could have some value.

At SOTM Africa earlier this month there was quite a bit of discussion on highway tags, including paths. Based on that discussion I have updated the Africa Highway Tagging guide to help clarify that a road has not only a construction class as well as an economic or social function.

Regards

Emmor





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Re: Highway Tag Africa wiki

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Palolo
I've been giving some thought to the large number of highway=track connecting settlements.

When I come across them and have the time I'll retag them normally to unclassified but the idle thought would be is there a way to identify them for inspection?

In JOSM I suspect we are limited to looking at tracks with more than twenty nodes but could someone build a plugin that would select them based on does it touch two or more settlements so they could be fed into the to-do plugin?

Or can someone come up with a way to identify them in some other way?

Thanks John

On 3 Aug 2017 7:19 pm, "Vao Matua" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Pierre,

Thank you for your thoughtful email.
I also want to thank you for your work over the years for OSM and HOT, I truly appreciate your efforts.
I also want to apologize if you take offense by my efforts, please know that I am trying to contribute in a way that improves the way OSM develops and refine resources to help HOT tasks.
A little background on myself; for more than 25 years I have worked as a geospatial professional and have designed and contributed to many GIS data construction efforts and have lead projects that transitioned from a legacy product to a more streamlined design. The frustration and mistakes associated with inconsistent design cannot be underestimated.
If we were to start the tagging design for OSM today I believe that our collective experience would give us something different than what we have now.  I realize that this is not possible and I am trying to help clarify the existing tagging to help ensure future contributions are consistent as possible.
It is unfortunate that you were not able to be in Kampala for the State of the Map Africa conference.  The discussion highway tagging workshop there was very positive and constructive, and did not have strong disagreements.
Following that discussion my intent in editing the wiki was an attempt to have the descriptions in a similar format without a long description.  I also am trying to develop a one page guide that can be used in a mapathon or carto-party as a tool to help new mappers. It would be best if the language of the guide and the wiki were the same.
In terms of classification I am very sensitive to the arrogance that sometimes can be communicated by expatriates regarding infrastructure in a developing countries. A rough road that would not be considered worth mapping in Europe could be a vital transportation link for a settlement were the same construction found in Africa. I have seen many roads tagged as highway=track when in reality the road should be either unclassified or even tertiary. 
We also have the challenge of describing major routes within an urban area. The words used in US transportation language are "collector" and "arterial" which imply that traffic is collected from several residential streets and then joined with other collectors to an arterial route. This is less of an issue than a rural setting in Africa, but still should be addressed in the wiki.

Again, I appreciate your efforts and hope you understand that I want to contribute to the OSM in a positive fashion.

Regards,

Emmor


On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Emmor

The Highway Tag Africa wiki page is used in Africa and other countries with similar realities. It has often been discussed since 2013, contributors being in favor in general to bring in this classification that insist on the role of roads vs the infrastructure and other aspects. Be assure that we do consider paths as important elements of mapping. Either in training sessions or for the various OSM Responses like Congo, Mali, Ebola, Nepal, Haiti, etc. we have always given instructions to trace paths either in urban areas or between villages and hamlets, mountains in Nepal, etc.

Comparing the wiki page July 9 vs July 22, I see that important segments of this wiki page have been rewritten.

As the architect of this page in 2013, I believe that the modifications made add confusion to the economic an social role of each class of highways.  Some descriptions added to each class about passable (access ?), plus road width and surface bring back the notion of infrastructure to describe each class. These additions should be discussed and we have to decide the best place where to introduce these concepts.

We can group roads in three blocks
1. Major interconnecting roads : highway=tertiary and over, that assure the intercity traffic or intra-urban collector traffic in major towns
2. Local interconnecting roads : highway=unclassified, interconnection at the local level, between villages / hamlets . There are also paths that connect villages.
3. Local roads and paths: higway=residential, track, path

When we make the distinction between roads and paths it is important to evaluate if a car or a 4x4 can circulate on this way. This is important to evaluate the population that have access to roadways, to evaluate if any access is possible by car to offer services or for emergency support.  If information about motorbike access is important, a tag motorcycle=yes could be added.

If a 4x4 can circulate on a way, we do not specify highway=path. If there are seasonal restrictions, (ie. at rainy season in Africa or winter in northern countries), we simply add a restriction to indicate the non-accessibiliy for this period.

The same with tracks. These are important. But we dont want contributors to mark all roads as track making the infrastructure aspects overrule the economic and social role. There are other keys to describe the other aspects.

See my analysis of the modifications comparing wiki page July 9 vs July 22.

The addition below to the wiki page is a bit confusing, not clear what we want to insist on here
  • Please note that a highway = track is not a more primitive construction class of a residential road

Road passable, road width and surface : Additions made to the various classes reduce the clarity.
1. road passable - we talk here of access permitted to piedestrians, motos, etc. For more clarity and keep the classification easier to understand, I suggest that this access description should be in a distinct section an not repeated in each class (ie. primary, secondary, tertiary, etc.)
2. road width - My objective writing this wiki page in 2013 was to insist about the distinction between the economic / social role of a road vs the infrastructures and road condition. This insistance on widths is confusing, bringing in the concept of the state of the road vs it's role. A note to say this is simply indicative?
3. surface - there are other sections to talk about surface - not necessary to add in each class.

Highway=secondary, New description is less clear
Original :
  • The roads connecting with regional capital cities and the towns of some importance (health services, commerce, etc.).
The new description, the first sentence added is less clear.
  • Major transportation routes connecting cities and large towns. Collector function in urban areas.

highway=tertiary, New description, the first sentence added is less clear.
Original
  • The roads interconnecting villages and the major streets in towns of some importance.
The new description added
  • Major transportation routes connecting towns and larger villages. Collector function in urban areas.

highway=unclassified
This class is used to distinguish rural roads interconnecting villages VS tracks going to the outskirts of villages. We should clarify that the section that cross a village, even if housings on each side should still be classified higway=unclassified.
The new definition is ambiguous
  • Minor collector roads that allow travel and commerce from paths and residential roads to and between settlements. Generally not residential



highway=residential
- Previous description was
  • Used for roads in the residential areas except the major streets that interconnect with various roads (ie. primary, secondary, tertiary). Should not be used to connect villages and hamlets.
- New description is unclear, adds confusion talking of urban and rural
  • In urban or rural setting roads which serve as an access to housing, without function of connecting settlements . Often lined with housing .

highway=track
- Previous description was
  • The small roads going outside the residential areas, mainly for '''agricultural and forestry''' purposes. Tracks can also be found in National Parks and Game Reserves. In general these roads do not have connecting function with other roads, and do not connect villages/hamlets.}}}
- New description, the first sentence is unclear
  • Access route from dwellings to agricultural and forestry areas. Roads within National Parks and Game Reserves may be tagged as tracks. No connection function between settlements.


Regard
 
 
Pierre



De : Vao Matua <[hidden email]>
À : Jens Mueller (Historical Research Services) <[hidden email]>
Cc : HOT Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
Envoyé le : Dimanche 30 juillet 2017 11h03
Objet : Re: [HOT] Highway Tag Africa wiki




Ukundji

Thank you for you comments, yes Ethiopia needs to have an OSM restart.
For the last 10 months I was living in SNNPR and was not able to meet a single OSM contributor.
The infrastructure, unfortunately, makes OSM contributions and even use very difficult.
Ethiopians would be very interested in getting OSMAnd on their phones, however, it appears to be a restricted app.

In terms of paths to Ethiopian villages it is indeed the case that the primary or only transportation route to a population may only be by foot or donkey traffic on a path.
I think the perception that a path is not important is quite common and is not true.  Important or significant paths need to be mapped for commerce, food safety, and potential relief efforts, not only in Ethiopia but in other parts of Africa and places throughout the world.

The discussion about importance doesn't seem to have moved forward but could have some value.

At SOTM Africa earlier this month there was quite a bit of discussion on highway tags, including paths. Based on that discussion I have updated the Africa Highway Tagging guide to help clarify that a road has not only a construction class as well as an economic or social function.

Regards

Emmor



_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot