Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

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Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

Leith Bade
Hi,

I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based in Canberra.

Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield images.

Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield selection rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.

However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only routes. Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and alphanumeric systems due to ongoing transition), the Northern Territory, and West Australia (which have not adopted the alphanumeric yet).

In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green and gold shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes (blue shields).

Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is used for blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the only non-alphanumeric route.

For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in the Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. Additionally in West Australia and Northern Territory to change all national highways to "NHxx" prefix.

There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route, however changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.

Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk when at most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the state. Also in Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out west is also trunk when at most it should be primary since it does not connect to a major city.

I welcome any feedback or suggestions.

Thanks,
Leith Bade

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Re: Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

Ross Scanlon
To me your proposed changes appear to be a lot like tagging for the renderer:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer

If the states are not doing alphanumeric then they should not be rendered that way.

I'd suggest linking to the routes you are proposing to change and see what opinions you get.

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I think the general consensus was "only tag with alphanumerics where it is signposted as such".

You may also want to have a look at these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_routes_in_Queensland

There is a similar wikipedia page for each state.

Cheers
Ross


On 10/11/15 16:19, Leith Bade wrote:
Hi,

I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based in Canberra.

Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield images.

Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield selection rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.

However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only routes. Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and alphanumeric systems due to ongoing transition), the Northern Territory, and West Australia (which have not adopted the alphanumeric yet).

In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green and gold shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes (blue shields).

Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is used for blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the only non-alphanumeric route.

For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in the Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. Additionally in West Australia and Northern Territory to change all national highways to "NHxx" prefix.

There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route, however changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.

Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk when at most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the state. Also in Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out west is also trunk when at most it should be primary since it does not connect to a major city.

I welcome any feedback or suggestions.

Thanks,
Leith Bade


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Re: Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

Leith Bade
Hi Ross and Micheal,

Fair enough. Perhaps instead of trying to change the refs to include prefixes, they should be removed for routes that are numerical only to align with your recommendation.

Basically:
- in Tasmania: change "NH1" to "1"
- in Victoria: change all "S x" to "x"
- in West Australia: change all "Sx" to "x"

To separate shield types, a comprehensive network of route relations would be implemented using the networks codes assigned in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Custom_Highway_Shields#Australia

This would require a large amount of effort however, unless it was automated which I know a lot of people do not like.

(Sorry Ross for the duplicate email, I realised I forgot to hit reply all)

Thanks,
Leith Bade

On 10 November 2015 at 18:46, Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
To me your proposed changes appear to be a lot like tagging for the renderer:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer

If the states are not doing alphanumeric then they should not be rendered that way.

I'd suggest linking to the routes you are proposing to change and see what opinions you get.

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I think the general consensus was "only tag with alphanumerics where it is signposted as such".

You may also want to have a look at these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_routes_in_Queensland

There is a similar wikipedia page for each state.

Cheers
Ross



On 10/11/15 16:19, Leith Bade wrote:
Hi,

I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based in Canberra.

Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield images.

Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield selection rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.

However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only routes. Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and alphanumeric systems due to ongoing transition), the Northern Territory, and West Australia (which have not adopted the alphanumeric yet).

In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green and gold shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes (blue shields).

Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is used for blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the only non-alphanumeric route.

For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in the Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. Additionally in West Australia and Northern Territory to change all national highways to "NHxx" prefix.

There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route, however changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.

Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk when at most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the state. Also in Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out west is also trunk when at most it should be primary since it does not connect to a major city.

I welcome any feedback or suggestions.

Thanks,
Leith Bade


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Re: Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

Phil Wyatt

This might also give you a heads up on what is happening in each state, though it bears no relationship to tags in OSM

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia

Cheers - Phil

 

From: Leith Bade [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2015 7:16 PM
To: Ross; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

 

Hi Ross and Micheal,

Fair enough. Perhaps instead of trying to change the refs to include prefixes, they should be removed for routes that are numerical only to align with your recommendation.

Basically:

- in Tasmania: change "NH1" to "1"

- in Victoria: change all "S x" to "x"

- in West Australia: change all "Sx" to "x"

To separate shield types, a comprehensive network of route relations would be implemented using the networks codes assigned in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Custom_Highway_Shields#Australia

This would require a large amount of effort however, unless it was automated which I know a lot of people do not like.

(Sorry Ross for the duplicate email, I realised I forgot to hit reply all)


Thanks,

Leith Bade

 

On 10 November 2015 at 18:46, Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:

To me your proposed changes appear to be a lot like tagging for the renderer:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer

If the states are not doing alphanumeric then they should not be rendered that way.

I'd suggest linking to the routes you are proposing to change and see what opinions you get.

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I think the general consensus was "only tag with alphanumerics where it is signposted as such".

You may also want to have a look at these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_routes_in_Queensland

There is a similar wikipedia page for each state.

Cheers
Ross



On 10/11/15 16:19, Leith Bade wrote:

Hi,

I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based in Canberra.

Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield images.

Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield selection rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.

However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only routes. Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and alphanumeric systems due to ongoing transition), the Northern Territory, and West Australia (which have not adopted the alphanumeric yet).

In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green and gold shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes (blue shields).

Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is used for blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the only non-alphanumeric route.

For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in the Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. Additionally in West Australia and Northern Territory to change all national highways to "NHxx" prefix.

There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route, however changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.

Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk when at most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the state. Also in Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out west is also trunk when at most it should be primary since it does not connect to a major city.

I welcome any feedback or suggestions.


Thanks,

Leith Bade

 

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Re: Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

Alex Sims
In reply to this post by Leith Bade
Hi Leith,

I’d second the finger waggling for tagging for the renderer, however a way out would be to transform the data in Mapbox on a state by state basis to get what you want. So OpenStreetMap records what is on the ground. When your rendering your map you can easily intersect polygons of the states with each highway link to take account of each states variation to make it look consistent nationally inside Mapbox.

At least the states are internally consistent. :-) and South Australia is all fine :-) :-)

Alex

On 10 Nov 2015, at 6:46 PM, Leith Bade <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Ross and Micheal,

Fair enough. Perhaps instead of trying to change the refs to include prefixes, they should be removed for routes that are numerical only to align with your recommendation.

Basically:
- in Tasmania: change "NH1" to "1"
- in Victoria: change all "S x" to "x"
- in West Australia: change all "Sx" to "x"

To separate shield types, a comprehensive network of route relations would be implemented using the networks codes assigned in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Custom_Highway_Shields#Australia

This would require a large amount of effort however, unless it was automated which I know a lot of people do not like.

(Sorry Ross for the duplicate email, I realised I forgot to hit reply all)

Thanks,
Leith Bade

On 10 November 2015 at 18:46, Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
To me your proposed changes appear to be a lot like tagging for the renderer:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer

If the states are not doing alphanumeric then they should not be rendered that way.

I'd suggest linking to the routes you are proposing to change and see what opinions you get.

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I think the general consensus was "only tag with alphanumerics where it is signposted as such".

You may also want to have a look at these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_routes_in_Queensland

There is a similar wikipedia page for each state.

Cheers
Ross



On 10/11/15 16:19, Leith Bade wrote:
Hi,

I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based in Canberra.

Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield images.

Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield selection rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.

However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only routes. Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and alphanumeric systems due to ongoing transition), the Northern Territory, and West Australia (which have not adopted the alphanumeric yet).

In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green and gold shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes (blue shields).

Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is used for blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the only non-alphanumeric route.

For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in the Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. Additionally in West Australia and Northern Territory to change all national highways to "NHxx" prefix.

There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route, however changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.

Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk when at most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the state. Also in Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out west is also trunk when at most it should be primary since it does not connect to a major city.

I welcome any feedback or suggestions.

Thanks,
Leith Bade


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Re: Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

Leith Bade

Hi Alex,

That was what I originally going to implement.

However we will need to keep a list of individual routes for QLD NT and WA since there is no way to separate national and state routes in those states to give white or blue shield respectively.

The engineers pushed back against this as we much prefer leveraging OSMs rich data model to do this sort of thing automatically.

To understand the reason, say a state one day changes the designation. If we hard code the list of routes some one has to remember to go and update the list. If we just rely on OSM tags then this will be picked up automatically when a local user updates the ways.

On 10 Nov 2015 8:41 pm, "Alex Sims" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Leith,

I’d second the finger waggling for tagging for the renderer, however a way out would be to transform the data in Mapbox on a state by state basis to get what you want. So OpenStreetMap records what is on the ground. When your rendering your map you can easily intersect polygons of the states with each highway link to take account of each states variation to make it look consistent nationally inside Mapbox.

At least the states are internally consistent. :-) and South Australia is all fine :-) :-)

Alex

On 10 Nov 2015, at 6:46 PM, Leith Bade <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Ross and Micheal,

Fair enough. Perhaps instead of trying to change the refs to include prefixes, they should be removed for routes that are numerical only to align with your recommendation.

Basically:
- in Tasmania: change "NH1" to "1"
- in Victoria: change all "S x" to "x"
- in West Australia: change all "Sx" to "x"

To separate shield types, a comprehensive network of route relations would be implemented using the networks codes assigned in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Custom_Highway_Shields#Australia

This would require a large amount of effort however, unless it was automated which I know a lot of people do not like.

(Sorry Ross for the duplicate email, I realised I forgot to hit reply all)

Thanks,
Leith Bade

On 10 November 2015 at 18:46, Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
To me your proposed changes appear to be a lot like tagging for the renderer:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer

If the states are not doing alphanumeric then they should not be rendered that way.

I'd suggest linking to the routes you are proposing to change and see what opinions you get.

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I think the general consensus was "only tag with alphanumerics where it is signposted as such".

You may also want to have a look at these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_routes_in_Queensland

There is a similar wikipedia page for each state.

Cheers
Ross



On 10/11/15 16:19, Leith Bade wrote:
Hi,

I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based in Canberra.

Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield images.

Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield selection rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.

However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only routes. Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and alphanumeric systems due to ongoing transition), the Northern Territory, and West Australia (which have not adopted the alphanumeric yet).

In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green and gold shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes (blue shields).

Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is used for blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the only non-alphanumeric route.

For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in the Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. Additionally in West Australia and Northern Territory to change all national highways to "NHxx" prefix.

There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route, however changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.

Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk when at most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the state. Also in Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out west is also trunk when at most it should be primary since it does not connect to a major city.

I welcome any feedback or suggestions.

Thanks,
Leith Bade


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Re: Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

Mark Pulley-2
On 10 Nov 2015, at 8:51 pm, Leith Bade <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Alex,

That was what I originally going to implement.

However we will need to keep a list of individual routes for QLD NT and WA since there is no way to separate national and state routes in those states to give white or blue shield respectively.

The engineers pushed back against this as we much prefer leveraging OSMs rich data model to do this sort of thing automatically.

To understand the reason, say a state one day changes the designation. If we hard code the list of routes some one has to remember to go and update the list. If we just rely on OSM tags then this will be picked up automatically when a local user updates the ways

Many highway routes include a network tag, e.g. a state route would have network=S, ref=xx - would using the network tag work to get the correct shield?

Mark P.


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Re: Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

Leith Bade
Hi Mark,

Interesting, I will have a look at that.

We hope in the future to also make use of route relations, however the key piece of software (osm2pgsql) we use to work with OSM does not support them.

One of my colleagues has been working on a replacement for that software.

Thanks,
Leith Bade

On 12 November 2015 at 08:22, Mark Pulley <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10 Nov 2015, at 8:51 pm, Leith Bade <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Alex,

That was what I originally going to implement.

However we will need to keep a list of individual routes for QLD NT and WA since there is no way to separate national and state routes in those states to give white or blue shield respectively.

The engineers pushed back against this as we much prefer leveraging OSMs rich data model to do this sort of thing automatically.

To understand the reason, say a state one day changes the designation. If we hard code the list of routes some one has to remember to go and update the list. If we just rely on OSM tags then this will be picked up automatically when a local user updates the ways

Many highway routes include a network tag, e.g. a state route would have network=S, ref=xx - would using the network tag work to get the correct shield?

Mark P.


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Re: Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

Paul Norman
On 11/11/2015 9:04 PM, Leith Bade wrote:
> We hope in the future to also make use of route relations, however the
> key piece of software (osm2pgsql) we use to work with OSM does not
> support them.

osm2pgsql does support route relations, and will in fact import them
with the default style.

Where it's a bit more work is if you want to interpret tags from both
relations and the ways that make them. I expected to do that soon, and
it's not going to involve any SQL.

What is hard is if you want the style of your shield to depend on the
highway (e.g. different shields for tertiary, secondary, etc) and to
render shields from refs on ways if no relations are present and to
override refs on ways.

If someone from Mapbox wants to work with me to clear up any
documentation on how to do this, and to provide examples, they should
get in touch with me. Rewriting osm2pgsql is not to be taken on by the
feint of heart, or at the end, by the sane, and making full use of
community supported existing tools is generally preferred to writing new
ones.

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