How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

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How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

Joseph Eisenberg
There is an approved tag for bus guideways, where specially-designed buses are guided by a rail:

But how should ordinary busways be mapped? Right now the suggestion on highway=bus_guideway is that other busways might be mapped highway=service + bus=designated + access=no. (See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbus_guideway)

There is also a somewhat common tag service=busway which has been used 2500 times, and can be added to highway=service

Alternatively, the tag highway=busway has been used a couple of dozen times, and there is a new draft proposal to use this tag instead of highway=service, for standard busways:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=busway

A new tag would require database users to adapt, but since guided busways already have a specific tag, it seems odd that other exclusive busways are mapped only as service roads.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

Andrew Harvey-3
When you say busway is that just a road that only busses are allowed to use, and specifically signposted for busses? if so then the suggested you noted of highway=* + bus=designated + access=no would be correct.

On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 17:12, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is an approved tag for bus guideways, where specially-designed buses are guided by a rail:

But how should ordinary busways be mapped? Right now the suggestion on highway=bus_guideway is that other busways might be mapped highway=service + bus=designated + access=no. (See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbus_guideway)

There is also a somewhat common tag service=busway which has been used 2500 times, and can be added to highway=service

Alternatively, the tag highway=busway has been used a couple of dozen times, and there is a new draft proposal to use this tag instead of highway=service, for standard busways:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=busway

A new tag would require database users to adapt, but since guided busways already have a specific tag, it seems odd that other exclusive busways are mapped only as service roads.

-- Joseph Eisenberg
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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


sent from a phone

On 18. Oct 2020, at 08:12, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Right now the suggestion on highway=bus_guideway is that other busways might be mapped highway=service + bus=designated + access=no. (See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbus_guideway)


I have been retagging these in the past in my area because the tagging prevented pedestrians from walking on the sidewalks (depending on the presence of sidewalks and other lanes this may be desirable or not). 

AFAIK dedicated bus lanes are tagged with lane tagging.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

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Oct 18, 2020, 08:08 by [hidden email]:
There is an approved tag for bus guideways, where specially-designed buses are guided by a rail:

But how should ordinary busways be mapped? Right now the suggestion on highway=bus_guideway is that other busways might be mapped highway=service + bus=designated + access=no. (See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbus_guideway)
It seems a good tagging for me.

There is also a somewhat common tag service=busway which has been used 2500 times, and can be added to highway=service
This also makes sense.

Alternatively, the tag highway=busway has been used a couple of dozen times, and there is a new draft proposal to use this tag instead of highway=service, for standard busways:

A new tag would require database users to adapt, but since guided busways already have a specific tag, it seems odd that other exclusive busways are mapped only as service roads.

-- Joseph Eisenberg
I see no significant benefit from introducing new highway type, especially given need to support
new highway value everywhere - but at least it would not cause widespread breakage as such
road are of a minor importance.

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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg



Oct 18, 2020, 10:01 by [hidden email]:



Oct 18, 2020, 08:08 by [hidden email]:
There is an approved tag for bus guideways, where specially-designed buses are guided by a rail:

But how should ordinary busways be mapped? Right now the suggestion on highway=bus_guideway is that other busways might be mapped highway=service + bus=designated + access=no. (See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbus_guideway)
It seems a good tagging for me.
One more note: in some cases only specific buses are allowed (for example, only public transport
buses operated by a municipal company, with private buses not allowed).

In such case bus=private would be a correct tagging, right?

There is also a somewhat common tag service=busway which has been used 2500 times, and can be added to highway=service
This also makes sense.

Image, checking, maybe expanding would be welcomed

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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

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Oct 18, 2020, 09:58 by [hidden email]:


sent from a phone

On 18. Oct 2020, at 08:12, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Right now the suggestion on highway=bus_guideway is that other busways might be mapped highway=service + bus=designated + access=no. (See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbus_guideway)


I have been retagging these in the past in my area because the tagging prevented pedestrians from walking on the sidewalks (depending on the presence of sidewalks and other lanes this may be desirable or not). 
If walking along them is OK then add foot=yes + sidewalk tag (or map footway as a separate line)
AFAIK dedicated bus lanes are tagged with lane tagging.
Yes, bus lanes are tagged with lane tagging. This applies to dedicated road (in my city
some major roads have sidewalks, cycleways, oneway carriageway for general traffic and
bus dedicated road between them - sometimes also with trams).


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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

dieterdreist
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sent from a phone

> On 18. Oct 2020, at 10:14, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One more note: in some cases only specific buses are allowed (for example, only public transport
> buses operated by a municipal company, with private buses not allowed).
>
> In such case bus=private would be a correct tagging, right?


no, the tag “bus” is for a bus acting as public transport vehicle, not for the vehicle class of busses.

Cheers Martin
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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

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Oct 18, 2020, 10:20 by [hidden email]:


sent from a phone
On 18. Oct 2020, at 10:14, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

One more note: in some cases only specific buses are allowed (for example, only public transport
buses operated by a municipal company, with private buses not allowed).

In such case bus=private would be a correct tagging, right?


no, the tag “bus” is for a bus acting as public transport vehicle, not for the vehicle class of busses.
There are cases where buses acting as public transport vehicle (travel between cities) are
still not allowed and only city-operated public transport is allowed.

(or is it case of regional difference of not treating privately owned buses running scheduled
open access journeys as a public transport?)

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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

Joseph Eisenberg
Here's an example of an exclusive busway, which is only used by the Orange Line / G Line bus service in suburban Los Angeles:


The busway is a 2-lane paved surface which is exclusively for public transit buses. There is a parallel cycleway and footway, but no sidewalks. Private buses and other vehicles are not permitted on the busway. It used to be an abandoned railway line which was converted to a busway.

Currently it is mapped as highway=service + service=busway + access=no + bus=designated - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/443134693

While the current tagging is ok, it seems inconsistent that highway=bus_guideway gets its own tag, while other busways which are similar in function are tagged as highway=service. 

- Joseph Eisenberg

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 1:38 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:



Oct 18, 2020, 10:20 by [hidden email]:


sent from a phone
On 18. Oct 2020, at 10:14, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

One more note: in some cases only specific buses are allowed (for example, only public transport
buses operated by a municipal company, with private buses not allowed).

In such case bus=private would be a correct tagging, right?


no, the tag “bus” is for a bus acting as public transport vehicle, not for the vehicle class of busses.
There are cases where buses acting as public transport vehicle (travel between cities) are
still not allowed and only city-operated public transport is allowed.

(or is it case of regional difference of not treating privately owned buses running scheduled
open access journeys as a public transport?)
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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

dieterdreist
Am So., 18. Okt. 2020 um 20:25 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
Here's an example of an exclusive busway, which is only used by the Orange Line / G Line bus service in suburban Los Angeles:


The busway is a 2-lane paved surface which is exclusively for public transit buses. There is a parallel cycleway and footway, but no sidewalks. Private buses and other vehicles are not permitted on the busway. It used to be an abandoned railway line which was converted to a busway.

Currently it is mapped as highway=service + service=busway + access=no + bus=designated - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/443134693

While the current tagging is ok, it seems inconsistent that highway=bus_guideway gets its own tag, while other busways which are similar in function are tagged as highway=service. 


are pedestrians forbidden to walk on the shoulder? Can you walk on the verges?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

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18 paź 2020, 20:22 od [hidden email]:
While the current tagging is ok, it seems inconsistent that highway=bus_guideway gets its own tag, while other busways which are similar in function are tagged as highway=service. 
Given that rail-like bus guideway is
drastically different in its structure from
roads I see no problem with it getting a
separate highway value.

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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

Joseph Eisenberg
I agree that highway=bus_guideway deserved it's own tag, since it is halfway to a rubber-tyred light metro, and quite similar to the "people mover" systems often found at airports, which often use concrete guidways and rubber-tired vehicles.

But since other busways serve the same public transit function and are exclusively for public transportation use, they are functionally similar from the perspective of a rider or a mapper.

And there are already some examples of highway=bus_guideway getting misused for other busways, so it would be helpful to settle on the best way to tag these: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4226#issue-724131173

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 4:02 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

18 paź 2020, 20:22 od [hidden email]:
While the current tagging is ok, it seems inconsistent that highway=bus_guideway gets its own tag, while other busways which are similar in function are tagged as highway=service. 
Given that rail-like bus guideway is
drastically different in its structure from
roads I see no problem with it getting a
separate highway value.
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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

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I'm actually the author of the highway=busway proposal. I don't actually work with the database, so I don't know how disruptive creating a new highway=* tag would be. Having a separate highway=busway tag just seemed obvious to me. I would not hierarchically place busways under highway=service due to their role in carry large amounts of people to any number of destinations.

However so, these idiosyncrasies will not bother me so long so the tagging schema allows for differentiation between long roadways in which buses may travel on carrying passengers, and short short service roads buses may travel on to enter a garage. The reason why this matters to me is because without this differentiation, the OSM-Carto devs are unwilling to add rendering for busways (that's different than service roads): https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4226#issuecomment-712528676



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Re: How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

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Initial effect of separate highway=busway would be that all data consumers
that have not added support to this new tag would not display them.

Due to nature of busways in most cases it would not be deeply harmful effect
or very disruptive, but for some unknown time (possibly very long)
highway=busway would be not rendered. Note that various data consumer
are not obligated to render anything and vote on approving proposal is not changing anything.

But if highway=busway is an improvement to our tagging schema I would support such chane.

"tagging schema allows for differentiation between long roadways in which buses
may travel on carrying passengers, and short short service roads buses may travel on to enter a garage"

Is service=busway capable of this distinction? AFAIK yes,
"short short service roads buses may travel on to enter a garage" seems to be service=driveway


Oct 20, 2020, 17:51 by [hidden email]:
I'm actually the author of the highway=busway proposal. I don't actually work with the database, so I don't know how disruptive creating a new highway=* tag would be. Having a separate highway=busway tag just seemed obvious to me. I would not hierarchically place busways under highway=service due to their role in carry large amounts of people to any number of destinations.

However so, these idiosyncrasies will not bother me so long so the tagging schema allows for differentiation between long roadways in which buses may travel on carrying passengers, and short short service roads buses may travel on to enter a garage. The reason why this matters to me is because without this differentiation, the OSM-Carto devs are unwilling to add rendering for busways (that's different than service roads): https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4226#issuecomment-712528676




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