How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

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How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

ebel
Hi all,

Let's have a wee talk about how should one map gender neutral (and
gender segregated) toilets. There is a unisex=yes for toilets which
looks like it might be the number one tag to use. The bog standard
meaning of "unisex toilet"[1] is a gender neutral toilet, i.e. not
segregated into separate male & female facilities.

Many smaller public toilets are single occupancy and hence unisex, many
larger public toilets (e.g. in shopping centers) are segregated. Social
conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so
their new target is trans people, and they're proposing "bathroom laws"
to limit trans people's access to public life. Some organizations are
making their toilets "gender neutral" in response. So there are probably
a lot of gender neutral public toilets, and it's very useful for some
people to know where they are.

But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki
page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The
JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2].
iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex,
it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes.

If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender
neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would
think gender segregated. Big difference.

I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning
"gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes",
which is "gender segregated".

Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Is unisex-yes tag being used
by many projects? What do they interpret it as? It's good not to force
things.

A year ago Micah Cochran's suggestion[3] would be along these lines, but
some changed to toilets:for:unisex=yes (etc.)

Rory

P.S. I am doing this as part of the "Diversity Quarterly Project"[4],
which for the quarter is gendered toilets. Plenty of toilets have no
male/female (and/or unisex) tag, and we should add those tags.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet
[2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15536
[3]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements
[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity_Quarterly_Project/2018_Q2

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Re: How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Mateusz Konieczny-2
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 18:27:02 +0200
Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing?

Note that defining tag with proposal on wiki will not change existing
data or immediately change how people understand tag.

I was not investigating the situation in this case but have you
considered inventing new tag, not tainted by confusion that you
described (I have no idea is it a good idea in this particular
situation).

> conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so
> their new target is trans people

I think that it is preferably to skip such parts, I am not convinced
that adding political discussion is an useful addition.

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Re: How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Tobias Zwick
In reply to this post by ebel
Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is
segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is
the application?

On 24/04/2018 18:27, Rory McCann wrote:
> Hi all,

> Let's have a wee talk about how should one map gender neutral (and
> gender segregated) toilets. There is a unisex=yes for toilets which
> looks like it might be the number one tag to use. The bog standard
> meaning of "unisex toilet"[1] is a gender neutral toilet, i.e. not
> segregated into separate male & female facilities.
>
> Many smaller public toilets are single occupancy and hence unisex, many
> larger public toilets (e.g. in shopping centers) are segregated. Social
> conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so
> their new target is trans people, and they're proposing "bathroom laws"
> to limit trans people's access to public life. Some organizations are
> making their toilets "gender neutral" in response. So there are probably
> a lot of gender neutral public toilets, and it's very useful for some
> people to know where they are.
>
> But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki
> page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The
> JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2].
> iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex,
> it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes.
>
> If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender
> neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would
> think gender segregated. Big difference.
>
> I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning
> "gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes",
> which is "gender segregated".
>
> Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Is unisex-yes tag being used
> by many projects? What do they interpret it as? It's good not to force
> things.
>
> A year ago Micah Cochran's suggestion[3] would be along these lines, but
> some changed to toilets:for:unisex=yes (etc.)
>
> Rory
>
> P.S. I am doing this as part of the "Diversity Quarterly Project"[4],
> which for the quarter is gendered toilets. Plenty of toilets have no
> male/female (and/or unisex) tag, and we should add those tags.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet
> [2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15536
> [3]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements
>
> [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity_Quarterly_Project/2018_Q2
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 04/24/2018 08:02 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is
> segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is
> the application?

I know people of both standard genders who would prefer using a toilet
that is for their gender's exclusive use over a toilet that is for all
genders.

Their respective reasons for doing so are based on unflattering
stereotypes so I won't repeat them here, but there definitely *are*
people who do not only want to know "can I use that toilet" but also
"who else can use that toilet".

Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Kathleen Lu
I think the most likely application may be the other way around, where transgender individuals concerned about harassment may purposefully seek out restrooms that are designated unisex in order to reduce the chances of encountering someone who might challenge whether they are using the "correct" restroom.
-Kathleen

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 11:12 AM Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

On 04/24/2018 08:02 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is
> segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is
> the application?

I know people of both standard genders who would prefer using a toilet
that is for their gender's exclusive use over a toilet that is for all
genders.

Their respective reasons for doing so are based on unflattering
stereotypes so I won't repeat them here, but there definitely *are*
people who do not only want to know "can I use that toilet" but also
"who else can use that toilet".

Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

James-2
not only that, bit generally in North America, men's washrooms are usually dirtier than woamns washrooms

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 2:46 PM Kathleen Lu, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think the most likely application may be the other way around, where transgender individuals concerned about harassment may purposefully seek out restrooms that are designated unisex in order to reduce the chances of encountering someone who might challenge whether they are using the "correct" restroom.
-Kathleen

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 11:12 AM Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

On 04/24/2018 08:02 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is
> segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is
> the application?

I know people of both standard genders who would prefer using a toilet
that is for their gender's exclusive use over a toilet that is for all
genders.

Their respective reasons for doing so are based on unflattering
stereotypes so I won't repeat them here, but there definitely *are*
people who do not only want to know "can I use that toilet" but also
"who else can use that toilet".

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by ebel
FYI The unisex tag is also used as a shorthand for female=yes,  male=yes on shop=hairdresser [1] . Giving it another meaning on toilets might cause extra confusion. 


regards

m


Op di 24 apr. 2018 18:27 schreef Rory McCann <[hidden email]>:
Hi all,

Let's have a wee talk about how should one map gender neutral (and
gender segregated) toilets. There is a unisex=yes for toilets which
looks like it might be the number one tag to use. The bog standard
meaning of "unisex toilet"[1] is a gender neutral toilet, i.e. not
segregated into separate male & female facilities.

Many smaller public toilets are single occupancy and hence unisex, many
larger public toilets (e.g. in shopping centers) are segregated. Social
conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so
their new target is trans people, and they're proposing "bathroom laws"
to limit trans people's access to public life. Some organizations are
making their toilets "gender neutral" in response. So there are probably
a lot of gender neutral public toilets, and it's very useful for some
people to know where they are.

But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki
page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The
JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2].
iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex,
it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes.

If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender
neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would
think gender segregated. Big difference.

I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning
"gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes",
which is "gender segregated".

Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Is unisex-yes tag being used
by many projects? What do they interpret it as? It's good not to force
things.

A year ago Micah Cochran's suggestion[3] would be along these lines, but
some changed to toilets:for:unisex=yes (etc.)

Rory

P.S. I am doing this as part of the "Diversity Quarterly Project"[4],
which for the quarter is gendered toilets. Plenty of toilets have no
male/female (and/or unisex) tag, and we should add those tags.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet
[2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15536
[3]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements
[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity_Quarterly_Project/2018_Q2

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Re: [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

ebel
My proposal improves the meaning (IMO). A "unisex hairdresser" is like a
"unisex toilet": all people, regardless of gender, facilitated in the
same mixed place. Not many unisex hairdressers are gender segregated,
with males in one room, and women in another! My proposal is that
"unisex=yes" always means "all genders, and not segregated"

On 25/04/18 04:58, Marc Gemis wrote:

> FYI The unisex tag is also used as a shorthand for female=yes,  male=yes
> on shop=hairdresser [1] . Giving it another meaning on toilets might
> cause extra confusion.
>
>
> regards
>
> m
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=hairdresser
>
> Op di 24 apr. 2018 18:27 schreef Rory McCann <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     Let's have a wee talk about how should one map gender neutral (and
>     gender segregated) toilets. There is a unisex=yes for toilets which
>     looks like it might be the number one tag to use. The bog standard
>     meaning of "unisex toilet"[1] is a gender neutral toilet, i.e. not
>     segregated into separate male & female facilities.
>
>     Many smaller public toilets are single occupancy and hence unisex, many
>     larger public toilets (e.g. in shopping centers) are segregated. Social
>     conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so
>     their new target is trans people, and they're proposing "bathroom laws"
>     to limit trans people's access to public life. Some organizations are
>     making their toilets "gender neutral" in response. So there are probably
>     a lot of gender neutral public toilets, and it's very useful for some
>     people to know where they are.
>
>     But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki
>     page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The
>     JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2].
>     iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex,
>     it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes.
>
>     If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender
>     neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would
>     think gender segregated. Big difference.
>
>     I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning
>     "gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes",
>     which is "gender segregated".
>
>     Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Is unisex-yes tag being used
>     by many projects? What do they interpret it as? It's good not to force
>     things.
>
>     A year ago Micah Cochran's suggestion[3] would be along these lines, but
>     some changed to toilets:for:unisex=yes (etc.)
>
>     Rory
>
>     P.S. I am doing this as part of the "Diversity Quarterly Project"[4],
>     which for the quarter is gendered toilets. Plenty of toilets have no
>     male/female (and/or unisex) tag, and we should add those tags.
>
>     [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet
>     [2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15536
>     [3]
>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements
>     [4]
>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity_Quarterly_Project/2018_Q2
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Diversity-talk mailing list
>     Code of Conduct:
>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity/MailingList/CodeOfConduct
>     Contact the mods (private): [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>

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Re: How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

ebel
In reply to this post by Tobias Zwick
(a) This is OSM, if it exists, we map it. 😁😁 Gender neutral vs. gender
segregated toilets exist. So how do we map that?

(b) Many people benefit from gender neutral toilets: Gender
non-conforming people, some trans people, people with carers of a
different gender. Mapping these facilities allows them to be found.
Wikipedia has more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet

On 24/04/18 20:02, Tobias Zwick wrote:

> Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is
> segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is
> the application?
>
> On 24/04/2018 18:27, Rory McCann wrote:
>> Hi all,
>
>> Let's have a wee talk about how should one map gender neutral (and
>> gender segregated) toilets. There is a unisex=yes for toilets which
>> looks like it might be the number one tag to use. The bog standard
>> meaning of "unisex toilet"[1] is a gender neutral toilet, i.e. not
>> segregated into separate male & female facilities.
>>
>> Many smaller public toilets are single occupancy and hence unisex, many
>> larger public toilets (e.g. in shopping centers) are segregated. Social
>> conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so
>> their new target is trans people, and they're proposing "bathroom laws"
>> to limit trans people's access to public life. Some organizations are
>> making their toilets "gender neutral" in response. So there are probably
>> a lot of gender neutral public toilets, and it's very useful for some
>> people to know where they are.
>>
>> But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki
>> page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The
>> JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2].
>> iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex,
>> it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes.
>>
>> If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender
>> neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would
>> think gender segregated. Big difference.
>>
>> I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning
>> "gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes",
>> which is "gender segregated".
>>
>> Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Is unisex-yes tag being used
>> by many projects? What do they interpret it as? It's good not to force
>> things.
>>
>> A year ago Micah Cochran's suggestion[3] would be along these lines, but
>> some changed to toilets:for:unisex=yes (etc.)
>>
>> Rory
>>
>> P.S. I am doing this as part of the "Diversity Quarterly Project"[4],
>> which for the quarter is gendered toilets. Plenty of toilets have no
>> male/female (and/or unisex) tag, and we should add those tags.
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet
>> [2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15536
>> [3]
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements
>>
>> [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity_Quarterly_Project/2018_Q2
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by ebel


sent from a phone

> On 25. Apr 2018, at 09:35, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My proposal improves the meaning (IMO). A "unisex hairdresser" is like a "unisex toilet": all people, regardless of gender, facilitated in the same mixed place. Not many unisex hairdressers are gender segregated, with males in one room, and women in another! My proposal is that "unisex=yes" always means "all genders, and not segregated"


I don’t think we should load more meaning into a tag after it is out in the wild. Unisex=yes is defined as a shortcut for male=yes + female=yes, and while I would have no problem extending this to people which feel both, or the opposite than what their body biologically seems to say, I think it would not be logical to include people which are neither, nor would it be OK to add implicated meaning about segregation to the definition. For me it would be ok to extend the unisex definition to include also people which aren’t male or female, but it doesn’t work to make it imply segregated_genders=yes.
A hair stylist can have 2 rooms, one for women and one for men, and it would be ok to tag it as unisex=yes. Segregation is a different property and should be mapped separately.


Cheers,
Martin
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How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Michael Reichert-3
In reply to this post by ebel
Hi Rory,

Am 2018-04-24 um 18:27 schrieb Rory McCann:

> But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki
> page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The
> JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2].
> iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex,
> it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes.
>
> If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender
> neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would
> think gender segregated. Big difference.
>
> I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning
> "gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes",
> which is "gender segregated".
The current usage of unisex=* doesn't seem to be good tag design but
changing its definition isn't a good idea either. Your proposed
redefinition of unisex=yes would change the meaning of an established
and highly used tag. Please invent new tags.

Sorry for the stupid question but are there more types of toilets than
the following three?
- male only
- female only
- not assigned to a specific gender

If the world were that simple, the following scheme might be sufficient:

amenity=toilet + unisex=yes + toilet:male_only=no +
toilet:female_only=no: one room for all

amenity=toilet + unisex=yes + toilet:male_only=yes +
toilet:female_only=yes: the "standard" toilet with separated rooms for
women and men

amenity=toilet + unisex=yes + toilet:male_only=yes +
toilet:female_only=yes + toilet:all=yes: toilet with three rooms (men +
women + all)

Best regards

Michael

--
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ausgenommen)
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Re: How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

ebel
On 25/04/18 19:58, Michael Reichert wrote:
> Your proposed redefinition of unisex=yes would change the meaning of
> an established and highly used tag. Please invent new tags.
This isn't redefining, to quote the wiki unisex=yes means "denotes that
access is unrestricted by a person's sex or gender.", which describes a
gender neutral toilet! The clue is in "uni-", it means the thing acts
like there only one (sex), it doesn't act like there are 2 (sexes).

It's still correct to say "unisex=yes implies male=yes and female=yes"
(i.e. males & females can still use the facility).

The big question: How do we differentiate between a thing that (a)
severs all genders, and (b) one that serves all genders (but segregates
people into 2 categories (male & female)). How do we tag "gender
neutral" vs "gender segregated"? In common English speech, "unisex"
means (a), the wiki implies (a). JOSM developers changed the validator
(& suggested auto fix) to align with (a). In common English, a gender
segregated toilet is not a "unisex toilet"! So I thought "unisex=yes"
meant gender neutral!

> Sorry for the stupid question but are there more types of toilets than
> the following three?
> - male only
> - female only
> - not assigned to a specific gender

Your last case should be split into two common cases: (i) Gender neutral
(i.e. non-segregated), everyone sharing, and (ii) male & female segregated.

I suggest (& am using):

(1) unisex=yes - This is a unisex, gender neutral toilet
(2) male=yes female=yes unisex=no - There are (separated) male & female
toilet facilities here, no unisex facilities.
(3) female=yes male=no unisex=no - Only female toilet facilities here
(4) male=yes female=no unisex=no - Only male toilet facilities here

and I suggest that if both male & female tags are set, you can presume
unisex=no unless unisex is also set (but it's good to set the unisex tag)

I'm not sure if there is anywhere that would be: (5) 3 options male,
female & unisex (unisex=yes male=yes female=yes)

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Re: How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Kathleen Lu

I'm not sure if there is anywhere that would be: (5) 3 options male,
female & unisex (unisex=yes male=yes female=yes)

What about something I see fairly often at airports? A large women's restroom, a large men's restroom, and a single-stall "family" restroom?
 

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Re: [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Tordanik
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 25.04.2018 15:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Unisex=yes is defined as a shortcut for male=yes + female=yes

This may be a stupid question, but where are you all getting this
definition from?

I assumed the key already had the meaning that Rory is suggesting here.
And at least on the Key:unisex and Tag:amenity=toilet wiki pages, I see
nothing to contradict that.

The former page mentions that the tag implies male=yes and female=yes,
but "implies" should not be confused with "is equivalent to".

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Re: [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Nicolás Alvarez
2018-04-25 19:21 GMT-03:00 Tobias Knerr <[hidden email]>:

> On 25.04.2018 15:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Unisex=yes is defined as a shortcut for male=yes + female=yes
>
> This may be a stupid question, but where are you all getting this
> definition from?
>
> I assumed the key already had the meaning that Rory is suggesting here.
> And at least on the Key:unisex and Tag:amenity=toilet wiki pages, I see
> nothing to contradict that.
>
> The former page mentions that the tag implies male=yes and female=yes,
> but "implies" should not be confused with "is equivalent to".

If most existing data is using unisex to mean "there are both male and
female toilets", then it doesn't matter one bit what the wiki says.
Reusing the tag to mean "there are gender-neutral toilets" will cause
confusion with that existing data.

--
Nicolás

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Re: [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Jo-2
What I see most often is a room with toilets for men, another room with toilets for women and a toilet for people with disabilities, usually a somewhat higher pot in a relatively big room with a larger door. The last one is gender neutral, of course. I don't think anyone maps that explicitly, as it goes without saying.

If there is only 1 toilet, wouldn't it always be gender neutral? Are we soon going to find 4 different toilet doors in buildings, male, female, disabled and "something else"?

Jo

2018-04-26 1:00 GMT+02:00 Nicolás Alvarez <[hidden email]>:
2018-04-25 19:21 GMT-03:00 Tobias Knerr <[hidden email]>:
> On 25.04.2018 15:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Unisex=yes is defined as a shortcut for male=yes + female=yes
>
> This may be a stupid question, but where are you all getting this
> definition from?
>
> I assumed the key already had the meaning that Rory is suggesting here.
> And at least on the Key:unisex and Tag:amenity=toilet wiki pages, I see
> nothing to contradict that.
>
> The former page mentions that the tag implies male=yes and female=yes,
> but "implies" should not be confused with "is equivalent to".

If most existing data is using unisex to mean "there are both male and
female toilets", then it doesn't matter one bit what the wiki says.
Reusing the tag to mean "there are gender-neutral toilets" will cause
confusion with that existing data.

--
Nicolás

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Re: [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Tordanik


sent from a phone

> On 26. Apr 2018, at 00:21, Tobias Knerr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This may be a stupid question, but where are you all getting this
> definition from?
>
> I assumed the key already had the meaning that Rory is suggesting here.


admittedly from Rory who wrote in his first message: “The wiki
page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". “

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

ebel
In reply to this post by Nicolás Alvarez
On 26/04/18 01:00, Nicolás Alvarez wrote:
> If most existing data is using unisex to mean "there are both male and
> female toilets", then it doesn't matter one bit what the wiki says.
> Reusing the tag to mean "there are gender-neutral toilets" will cause
> confusion with that existing data.

That's one of my original questions. What (if any) data consumers are
using this data/tags?

If some popular site/app was using it to display a map that's one thing.
If no-one is using the data, and many data contributors (mappers) are
using "unisex=yes" as gender neutral, then it doesn't matter if the wiki
says "it's the same as gender segregated"! 🙂

I haven't found any sites/apps/projects using this data/tags.



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Re: [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

Mikel Maron-3
> That's one of my original questions. What (if any) data consumers are
using this data/tags?
>
> If some popular site/app was using it to display a map that's one thing.
If no-one is using the data, and many data contributors (mappers) are
using "unisex=yes" as gender neutral, then it doesn't matter if the wiki
says "it's the same as gender segregated"! 🙂
>
> I haven't found any sites/apps/projects using this data/tags.


Proud to say, my alma mater University of California, Santa Cruz, has had various versions of its campus map based on OSM, and they highlight gender neutral bathrooms. "unisex=yes" is the tag used there.

The application of the tag is not consistent across the campus, so is a prime location to engage for a mapping effort.

-Mikel


* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Thursday, April 26, 2018, 3:18:45 AM EDT, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 26/04/18 01:00, Nicolás Alvarez wrote:
> If most existing data is using unisex to mean "there are both male and
> female toilets", then it doesn't matter one bit what the wiki says.
> Reusing the tag to mean "there are gender-neutral toilets" will cause
> confusion with that existing data.

That's one of my original questions. What (if any) data consumers are
using this data/tags?

If some popular site/app was using it to display a map that's one thing.
If no-one is using the data, and many data contributors (mappers) are
using "unisex=yes" as gender neutral, then it doesn't matter if the wiki
says "it's the same as gender segregated"! 🙂

I haven't found any sites/apps/projects using this data/tags.




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Re: [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by ebel
Somehow I don't see anything on the wiki page that supports this lengthy
thread.

The issue may be that there are (at least) two ways to map a toilet
facility:

- rough, one node or area for the whole thing, indicating that unisex,
female and male apply to the options available within, making it
diffifult to determine what is exactly implied,

- detailed: a node, entrance or room per toilet "room", for which the
three tags make perfect sense.

It would seem that a simple way to make the tagging in the first case
less ambivalent would be to add a tag segregated=yes/no (so a unisex=yes
segregated=yes facility would only have gender specific rooms, with
segregated=no you could expect at least one unisex room).

Simon

Am 26.04.2018 um 09:15 schrieb Rory McCann:

> On 26/04/18 01:00, Nicolás Alvarez wrote:
>> If most existing data is using unisex to mean "there are both male and
>> female toilets", then it doesn't matter one bit what the wiki says.
>> Reusing the tag to mean "there are gender-neutral toilets" will cause
>> confusion with that existing data.
>
> That's one of my original questions. What (if any) data consumers are
> using this data/tags?
>
> If some popular site/app was using it to display a map that's one thing.
> If no-one is using the data, and many data contributors (mappers) are
> using "unisex=yes" as gender neutral, then it doesn't matter if the wiki
> says "it's the same as gender segregated"! 🙂
>
> I haven't found any sites/apps/projects using this data/tags.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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