How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

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How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

Shrinivasan T
Hello all,

I am Shrini from Chennai, India.

My language is Tamil.
I want to get the tamilnadu state map in OSM in Tamil.

For this, few professional translators agreed to help on this.
They are new to OSM and they scare to edit live with online OSM ID editor.

All they need is a list of strings that need to be translated in Tamil.
They can translate and share.
Then the new tamil translation should be imported to OSM.

I explored on this for any available system.
Cant find any.

Hence explored further and wrote here on the plan.

How to translate the strings on OSM to Tamil?

  1. We have to select a region in OSM
  2. Query for the nodes/paths that dont have tamil translation
  3. Get them in a google sheet
  4. Translate the strings to Tamil using Google Translate
  5. Translate the strings using wikidata (not implemented)
  6. Verify the translations manually and fix any errors
  7. Upload the translations to OSM.
Read more on the code snippets.


Is this fine to proceed with this plan?

How to get permission from the community for mass import of tamil translations?

Please share your thoughts on this.

Thanks.




--
Regards,
T.Shrinivasan


My Life with GNU/Linux : http://goinggnu.wordpress.com
Free E-Magazine on Free Open Source Software in Tamil : http://kaniyam.com

Get Free Tamil Ebooks for Android, iOS, Kindle, Computer :     http://FreeTamilEbooks.com

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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

SimonPoole

Hi Shrini

Before getting in to any of the details my first question would be: why are you "translating" to Tamil, shouldn't the objects in question already have a name (as in a name used by the local population in Tamil) that can simply be used in OSM? Or is this more a question of using the relevant script?

The other fundamental thing that needs to be clarified  is what does the local community want to do with the name Tag, iirc there seems to be some consensus to use  Latin script and English names in India in general, would you want to replace them with the Tamil name and move the current named to name:en or perhaps int_name?

Simon

Am 31.05.2019 um 12:56 schrieb Shrinivasan T:
Hello all,

I am Shrini from Chennai, India.

My language is Tamil.
I want to get the tamilnadu state map in OSM in Tamil.

For this, few professional translators agreed to help on this.
They are new to OSM and they scare to edit live with online OSM ID editor.

All they need is a list of strings that need to be translated in Tamil.
They can translate and share.
Then the new tamil translation should be imported to OSM.

I explored on this for any available system.
Cant find any.

Hence explored further and wrote here on the plan.

How to translate the strings on OSM to Tamil?

  1. We have to select a region in OSM
  2. Query for the nodes/paths that dont have tamil translation
  3. Get them in a google sheet
  4. Translate the strings to Tamil using Google Translate
  5. Translate the strings using wikidata (not implemented)
  6. Verify the translations manually and fix any errors
  7. Upload the translations to OSM.
Read more on the code snippets.


Is this fine to proceed with this plan?

How to get permission from the community for mass import of tamil translations?

Please share your thoughts on this.

Thanks.




--
Regards,
T.Shrinivasan


My Life with GNU/Linux : http://goinggnu.wordpress.com
Free E-Magazine on Free Open Source Software in Tamil : http://kaniyam.com

Get Free Tamil Ebooks for Android, iOS, Kindle, Computer :     http://FreeTamilEbooks.com

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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

Shrinivasan T
Hi Simon,

> Before getting in to any of the details my first question would be: why are you "translating" to Tamil, shouldn't the objects in question already have a name (as in a name used by the local population in Tamil) that can simply be used in OSM? Or is this more a question of using the relevant script?

See the image here
https://goinggnu.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/tamil-map-osm.jpg

We need a similar map in Tamil Language.
Currently, we have tamil strings only for the cities and well known areas.

We need all the street names and other POI in Tamil, when zoomed well.

For this, we have to translate all the strings in our state, to Tamil Language.



> The other fundamental thing that needs to be clarified  is what does the local community want to do with the name Tag, iirc there seems to be some consensus to use  Latin script and English names in India in general, would you want to replace them with the Tamil name and move the current named to name:en or perhaps int_name?

The name tag is filled with english by default.

We need to fill the filed name:ta  with the Tamil Translated strings.

Thats why proposing a system for
querying OSM,
get strings in a google sheet,
translate manually ( or using machine translation with manual
verification, fixing errors)
upload translated strings back to OSM.

Need inputs on is this plan fine to go or any change is required.


Where  we have to get any permission for mass import of translated strings?

Thanks.

--
Regards,
T.Shrinivasan


My Life with GNU/Linux : http://goinggnu.wordpress.com
Free E-Magazine on Free Open Source Software in Tamil : http://kaniyam.com

Get Free Tamil Ebooks for Android, iOS, Kindle, Computer :
http://FreeTamilEbooks.com

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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

Andy Townsend
On 31/05/2019 15:14, Shrinivasan T wrote:
>
> We need a similar map in Tamil Language.

You probably don't need to translate anything.  What you see on one
OSM-based map is only a tiny subset of the data in OSM.  Here, for
example, is the information stored against one place in that area:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5359556781

You'll notice that the "name:ta" contains the placename that you want to
display here.

What you probably want to do is to create a map using a similar map
style to the standard one at openstreetmap.org  (or a different one, if
you prefer) but displaying Tamil names on it. It's actually pretty
simple to do this; as just one example
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html displays names in one of
three languages depending on in what area the name actually is.  See
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/diary/42069 for how I did
this, but what you want to do (always display Tamil names in preference
to the default ones) is actually much simpler.

Those instructions apply to maps created using the same technology as
was used to generate the tiles you see at openstreetmap.org (see also
https://switch2osm.org/manually-building-a-tile-server-18-04-lts/ ). 
Other options are available, but in each case they'll be able to make
use of the extra fields in the OSM data that you won't see by default at
openstreetmap.org.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

john whelan-2
You might just try osmand as well.  You can set the language to be displayed and if the item isn't tagged in Tamil it will display the English tag.

Using JOSM you can select assets with and without values.  So you can find those places with just an English name.  Create a second layer, download a one inch square with nothing in it then copy the places you need to add names to the second layer and save the file.

Now you have an xml file that you can play with certainly as far as seeing which places need extra name tags in.

Cheerio John

Andy Townsend wrote on 2019-05-31 10:44 AM:
On 31/05/2019 15:14, Shrinivasan T wrote:

We need a similar map in Tamil Language.

You probably don't need to translate anything.  What you see on one OSM-based map is only a tiny subset of the data in OSM.  Here, for example, is the information stored against one place in that area:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5359556781

You'll notice that the "name:ta" contains the placename that you want to display here.

What you probably want to do is to create a map using a similar map style to the standard one at openstreetmap.org  (or a different one, if you prefer) but displaying Tamil names on it. It's actually pretty simple to do this; as just one example https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html displays names in one of three languages depending on in what area the name actually is.  See https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/diary/42069 for how I did this, but what you want to do (always display Tamil names in preference to the default ones) is actually much simpler.

Those instructions apply to maps created using the same technology as was used to generate the tiles you see at openstreetmap.org (see also https://switch2osm.org/manually-building-a-tile-server-18-04-lts/ ).  Other options are available, but in each case they'll be able to make use of the extra fields in the OSM data that you won't see by default at openstreetmap.org.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

Shrinivasan T
Thanks for the replies.

I understand that if name:ta tag and its value is available, it is
enough to build Tamil maps.

But, the issue we face is there is not enough name:ta values.

[out:json][timeout:3600][bbox:12.9201721,80.1238331,13.2401721,80.4438331];(node["railway"]["name"~"."]["name:ta"!~"."];);out
meta;

The above is the query for my city railways that dont have tamil translations.

Check the json result here.
http://overpass-api.de/api/interpreter?data=%5Bout%3Ajson%5D%5Btimeout%3A3600%5D%5Bbbox%3A12.9201721%2C80.1238331%2C13.2401721%2C80.4438331%5D%3B%28node%5B%22railway%22%5D%5B%22name%22~%22.%22%5D%5B%22name%3Ata%22%21~%22.%22%5D%3B%29%3Bout%20meta%3B

Like this, we have tons and tons of POIs, Roads, Ways that are only in english.

Now, we have to translate all these strings to Tamil.

For translation, I got few contributors, who can translation if give
the exact content in a excel sheet or in some translation system.
They are not willing to explore osm, jsom, overpass query etc for
translating the strings.

Hence, I am thinking of myself query osm, get name strings that done
have "name:ta" tag, populate them as a google sheet, share the
translators for translating.
Once they did, I will import the strings to osm with name:ta tag.

To make the translator's job easier, I do a google or bing or wikidata
or some machine translation, so that they can skip the correct one.
They can only fix the wrong translations.

The license of translated text will be public domain. so that we can
use for any purpose.

Hope I explained the plan.

My Questions.

Is mass importing of translated strings accepted?
Do I have to get permission before importing?
Where to ask for permission?
Is there any rate limit for importing strings via programming like x
strings per day or per min etc.


Thanks.
Shrini

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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

Mateusz Konieczny-3



31 May 2019, 19:47 by [hidden email]:
Hence, I am thinking of myself query osm, get name strings that done
have "name:ta" tag, populate them as a google sheet, share the
translators for translating.
Once they did, I will import the strings to osm with name:ta tag.
Note that answers are likely to be incorrect with such plan.

In general, it is impossible to find proper names in one language when you
have solely name in other language. One needs more context to actually do this.
To make the translator's job easier, I do a google or bing or wikidata
or some machine translation, so that they can skip the correct one.
They can only fix the wrong translations.
I would not expect some reasonable quality from that.

Also, note that imports from wikidata to OSM are not acceptable.
See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wikidata#Importing_data_from_Wikidata_into_OSM
Do I have to get permission before importing?
Yes.
Where to ask for permission?
See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines

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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Shrinivasan T
31 May 2019, 19:47 by [hidden email]:
For translation, I got few contributors, who can translation if give
the exact content in a excel sheet or in some translation system.
They are not willing to explore osm, jsom, overpass query etc for
translating the strings.
note: what I propose below is not existing at this moment, though maybe it
would be a good idea to create something like this

What about an Android application that displays map, with markers for
locations where name in one of local languages is missing?

And user can fill such missing names, based on ground survey as one walks
across town/village/neighbourhood?


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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3

In general, it is impossible to find proper names in one language when you
have solely name in other language. One needs more context to actually do this.
To make the translator's job easier, I do a google or bing or wikidata
or some machine translation, so that they can skip the correct one.
They can only fix the wrong translations.
I would not expect some reasonable quality from that.

I would expect locals to be able to determine this. From your post, I assume that you are a local and fluent in Tamil, and therefore able to tell whether the translations from your volunteers are correct. I would suggest testing with a small sample for translation using your proposed translation process and then manually edit those names to see whether you get the results you're hoping for.
 
Also, note that imports from wikidata to OSM are not acceptable.

Given that the proposal involves only suggested translations and post-editing by human translators, I would not consider this an import from Wikidata, as the human translators break any (already limited by law) IP claims in names. 

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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

Shrinivasan T
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
Thanks Mateusz,

Will read the import guidelines.

As wikidata and other machine translation services cause license
issues, will translate them all manually.

Once the process is setup, few cycles of export/translate/import is done,
we can create a web/mobile application for this.

Shrini

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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

Julien Lepiller
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
Le Fri, 31 May 2019 20:37:47 +0200 (CEST),
Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> 31 May 2019, 19:47 by [hidden email]:
>
> > For translation, I got few contributors, who can translation if give
> > the exact content in a excel sheet or in some translation system.
> > They are not willing to explore osm, jsom, overpass query etc for
> > translating the strings.
> >  
> note: what I propose below is not existing at this moment, though
> maybe it would be a good idea to create something like this
>
> What about an Android application that displays map, with markers for
> locations where name in one of local languages is missing?
>
> And user can fill such missing names, based on ground survey as one
> walks across town/village/neighbourhood?
>

That sounds like something that Street Complete could do, don't you
think? But it will probably add a very dense set of quests, and most of
these questions will be very difficult to answer from the ground.

I can only talk about my experience in Brittany (France) where some
street signs are bilingual. If I had a quest on Street Complete for
that, I would almost certainly hide it, because maybe half of the
streets do not have a bilingual sign, so the question is impossible to
answer. Apart from roads and towns, POIs in my experience only have one
name, and it doesn't make sense to translate it, since people won't
recognize the name at all. For instance I don't think it makes sense to
add a name:en to a bar called "le bar bleu" even though it could be
`name:en=the blue bar`. Nobody would understand or use that name.

Since Tamil uses a different script from English, it might make sense
to use transliteration to show a map in the Tamil script, in which
case it's up to the map renderer to do a proper transliteration. It
might also be the case that the POI was named using a transliteration
(from a tourist who can't read Tamil for instance), in which case
renaming the POI to use the Tamil script makes sense I think. I believe
this has already been discussed for Japanese?

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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Shrinivasan T
My personal view is if you are cutting and pasting in JOSM it is not an import as such.

Cheerio John

On Fri, 31 May 2019, 1:50 pm Shrinivasan T, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

I understand that if name:ta tag and its value is available, it is
enough to build Tamil maps.

But, the issue we face is there is not enough name:ta values.

[out:json][timeout:3600][bbox:12.9201721,80.1238331,13.2401721,80.4438331];(node["railway"]["name"~"."]["name:ta"!~"."];);out
meta;

The above is the query for my city railways that dont have tamil translations.

Check the json result here.
http://overpass-api.de/api/interpreter?data=%5Bout%3Ajson%5D%5Btimeout%3A3600%5D%5Bbbox%3A12.9201721%2C80.1238331%2C13.2401721%2C80.4438331%5D%3B%28node%5B%22railway%22%5D%5B%22name%22~%22.%22%5D%5B%22name%3Ata%22%21~%22.%22%5D%3B%29%3Bout%20meta%3B

Like this, we have tons and tons of POIs, Roads, Ways that are only in english.

Now, we have to translate all these strings to Tamil.

For translation, I got few contributors, who can translation if give
the exact content in a excel sheet or in some translation system.
They are not willing to explore osm, jsom, overpass query etc for
translating the strings.

Hence, I am thinking of myself query osm, get name strings that done
have "name:ta" tag, populate them as a google sheet, share the
translators for translating.
Once they did, I will import the strings to osm with name:ta tag.

To make the translator's job easier, I do a google or bing or wikidata
or some machine translation, so that they can skip the correct one.
They can only fix the wrong translations.

The license of translated text will be public domain. so that we can
use for any purpose.

Hope I explained the plan.

My Questions.

Is mass importing of translated strings accepted?
Do I have to get permission before importing?
Where to ask for permission?
Is there any rate limit for importing strings via programming like x
strings per day or per min etc.


Thanks.
Shrini

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Re: How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

Mateusz Konieczny-3
It is certainly possible to do imports this way. It is not the most optimal way but
it will not change whatever someone is importing data or not.

6 Jun 2019, 19:44 by [hidden email]:
My personal view is if you are cutting and pasting in JOSM it is not an import as such.


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