How to distinguish public and private offices?

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How to distinguish public and private offices?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
There are some offices that can be assumed to be without access by general public
like office=company.

There are some that can be assumed to be accessible like office=travel_agent.

But there are some like office=political_party, office=religion,
office=government that are generally accessible and used by general public but some
are for internal use and not used by general public.

For example office=government may be place where people order or file documents.
But it may be also place without public entry and handling some internal things.

Is there a standard way to tag this? I thought about access=private/no, but maybe there
is other way to handle this.

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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 14. Aug 2019, at 22:27, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There are some offices that can be assumed to be without access by general public
> like office=company.


I would generally think of office=* as not accessible for the general public, at least this was the initial idea if I recall correctly. The office=company tag seems to be an outlier among the office tags.

For example
amenity=bank is a place where (small) customers go to do banking

office=bank is a place where the “other” bankers are working (no public admittance)


Those places where the public is generally admitted will usually/often also have private areas where the public can’t access (similar to the kitchen or office of a restaurant)


>
> There are some that can be assumed to be accessible like office=travel_agent.


depends what this is describing: a place where you go to book a tour / hotel / flight or a business 2 business place (back office) where contracts / agreements are made, tours are composed, offers calculated, catalogues created, etc.?

IMHO upholding clear semantics for shop and amenity (public generally admitted) and office (public generally not admitted) would help make/keep tagging easier.

There is also craft, which is more about formal qualification though and can be used in addition to other main tags.

Cheers Martin
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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Mateusz Konieczny-3



14 Aug 2019, 23:11 by [hidden email]:

There are some that can be assumed to be accessible like office=travel_agent.


depends what this is describing: a place where you go to book a tour / hotel / flight or a business 2 business place (back office) where contracts / agreements are made, tours are composed, offers calculated, catalogues created, etc.?

IMHO upholding clear semantics for shop and amenity (public generally admitted) and office (public generally not admitted) would help make/keep tagging easier.
Unfortunately many office=* tags represent something that is accessible - for example
office=insurance is used far more often than shop=insurance (what is causing throuble
as there are

- actual offices of companies without public access
- places where one may sign up for insurance services
- offices open for public, not selling insurance services (for example,
center for processing vehicle insurance claims)

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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 14. Aug 2019, at 23:30, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately many office=* tags represent something that is accessible


yes it is unfortunate
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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

dcapillae
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
Hi,

Why not "access=private"?

Examples from the wiki [1]:

 "amenity=parking" + "access=private" for private parking, such as company
employees.
 "leisure=swimming_pool" + "access=private" for a swimming pool in a private
backyard.  
 "leisure=playground" + "access=private" for a playground in a school or
kindergarten.

Examples from the wiki could also include, as another example, a private
office [1]:

 "office=yes" + "access=private" for private office generally not accessible
by general public.

I think it's a simple and correct solution.

Greetings from Spain.

Regards,
Daniel

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dprivate



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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Warin
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 15/08/19 07:35, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 14. Aug 2019, at 23:30, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately many office=* tags represent something that is accessible
>
> yes it is unfortunate

Not it is not.

An office is a place predominantly providing services, frequently selling them.

A shop is a place that predominantly sells physical objects like fruit and vegetables.


The majority of values of offices look to me to provide public services.

To signify restriction on access use the access key, just as it is done for highways etc.




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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Joseph Eisenberg
office=diplomatic was recently approved for consulates (and
embassies), which almost always provide public services.

Office=government is one that is most in need of more distinctions.

I suppose access=private isn’t wrong, but it seems incomplete: many
government offices do not legally exclude the public, but also do not
offer public services. For example, the offices of members of the
American legislature are clearly not public, but anyone in the public
can get an appointment to visit the legislator from their district.
Local government offices often allow walk-in visitors, but may not
offer any services.

Perhaps more types of government offices which provide public services
should have a specific amenity or shop tag, like the existing tags
amenity=town_hall,  amenity=courthouse, amenity=embassy,
amenity=register_office?

Or do we just need more sub-tags like government=ministry,
government=register_office and government=tax? There are many other
values that are not yet document, and many are not very clear.

I'd note that the proposal Proposed_features/Government_offices was
approved in 2015 (though with some objection), and switched from
amenity=register_office to government=register_office +
office=government, for a public-facing service office.

- Joseph

On 8/15/19, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 15/08/19 07:35, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 14. Aug 2019, at 23:30, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Unfortunately many office=* tags represent something that is accessible
>>
>> yes it is unfortunate
>
> Not it is not.
>
> An office is a place predominantly providing services, frequently selling
> them.
>
> A shop is a place that predominantly sells physical objects like fruit and
> vegetables.
>
>
> The majority of values of offices look to me to provide public services.
>
> To signify restriction on access use the access key, just as it is done for
> highways etc.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Paul Allen
On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 04:32, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

I suppose access=private isn’t wrong, but it seems incomplete: many
government offices do not legally exclude the public, but also do not
offer public services. For example, the offices of members of the
American legislature are clearly not public, but anyone in the public
can get an appointment to visit the legislator from their district.
Local government offices often allow walk-in visitors, but may not
offer any services.

access=permissive doesn't quite cut it.  Maybe there's a case for access=by_appointment
or access=appointment_only or even just access=appointment.  At which point the software
team of some editors may complain about access=appointment (or whatever) ending up
as a menu option for highways and refuse to implement it.

Nevertheless, we probably need something to indicate that sort of thing as there are
hairdresses and beauty salons which are operated by a single person and are
appointment-only.  Currently the only way we can handle that is in the opening
hours tag where no hours are specified and the comment "by appointment" (the
quotes are necessary for it to be treated as a comment by parsers) is added.  Maybe
that is the answer for your government offices too. Except it isn't really, because
if you specify actual opening times then the comment "by appointment" is taken as
meaning that you may be able to make an appointment for a time outside the
specified hours.  In the case of a government office you'd want to specify the hours
at which you can book an appointment for.

I've just talked myself out of all the possibilities I can think of.

--
Paul


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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

dcapillae
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Hi,


Joseph Eisenberg wrote
> I suppose access=private isn’t wrong, but it seems incomplete: many
> government offices do not legally exclude the public, but also do not
> offer public services. For example, the offices of members of the American
> legislature are clearly not public, but anyone in the public can get an
> appointment to visit the legislator from their district. Local government
> offices often allow walk-in visitors, but may not offer any services.

The "access=private" tag does not mean that it is legally forbidden to
access, that it is always forbidden under any circumstances ("access=no").
It means (I think) that the conditions of access are set by the owner. An
appointment, for example, or a certain visiting hours to walk inside the
office are conditions of access that the owner of the office sets
discretionally, privately, i.e. according to his will.

I would use "opening_hours=*" [1] or "reservation=*" [2] to indicate if
there is a visiting hours or if it is necessary to make an appointment in a
private office that does not normally provide services to the general public
(«office=yes» + «access=private»).

Greetings from Spain.

Regards,
Daniel

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Opening_hours
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:reservation



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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Paul Allen
On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 12:44, dcapillae <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would use "opening_hours=*" [1] or "reservation=*" [2] to indicate if
there is a visiting hours or if it is necessary to make an appointment in a
private office that does not normally provide services to the general public
(«office=yes» + «access=private»).

I wasn't aware of reservation=* when I made my earlier unworkable suggestions.
Looks perfect to me.

--
Paul


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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3


On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 07:32, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Unfortunately many office=* tags represent something that is accessible - for example
office=insurance is used far more often than shop=insurance (what is causing throuble
as there are

- actual offices of companies without public access

That would be office=insurance
 
- places where one may sign up for insurance services

That would be shop=insurance

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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Mateusz Konieczny-3



15 Aug 2019, 14:36 by [hidden email]:


On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 07:32, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Unfortunately many office=* tags represent something that is accessible - for example
office=insurance is used far more often than shop=insurance (what is causing throuble
as there are

- actual offices of companies without public access

That would be office=insurance
 

- places where one may sign up for insurance services

That would be shop=insurance
And in real tagging office=insurance is used for both (I use shop=insurance but
I am in a minority).

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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Warin
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On 15/08/19 21:50, Paul Allen wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 12:44, dcapillae <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would use "opening_hours=*" [1] or "reservation=*" [2] to indicate if
there is a visiting hours or if it is necessary to make an appointment in a
private office that does not normally provide services to the general public
(«office=yes» + «access=private»).

I wasn't aware of reservation=* when I made my earlier unworkable suggestions.
Looks perfect to me.


There is also the description key. I use it when I want to convey something to the end user but don't know how to tag it and/or I view it as a very rear case so don't want to invent a new tag just for it.

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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Warin
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
On 16/08/19 04:08, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:



15 Aug 2019, 14:36 by [hidden email]:


On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 07:32, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Unfortunately many office=* tags represent something that is accessible - for example
office=insurance is used far more often than shop=insurance (what is causing throuble
as there are

- actual offices of companies without public access

That would be office=insurance
 

- places where one may sign up for insurance services

That would be shop=insurance
And in real tagging office=insurance is used for both (I use shop=insurance but
I am in a minority).


I use shop=* for physical items and office=* for services such as insurance, travel agents etc. I think that follow the wiki. I note that both office and shop did not come through the tagging list.

For non public assess then access=private/members?

Examples .. costco requires membership so shop=wholesale, name=costco, access=members? There is a key membership=yes that looks to be the same thing?

(The key membership has status defacto, <300 uses, from March 2018)



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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by Paul Allen


On 15/08/2019 12:23, Paul Allen wrote:

Nevertheless, we probably need something to indicate that sort of thing as there are
hairdresses and beauty salons which are operated by a single person and are
appointment-only. 

In the case of hairdressers, the appointment only tag is only an indication and most people don't want to wait.

You can usually walk into a hairdressers to make an appointment and if they are not busy they will not turn you away.

Its just those with an appointment will get priority. Much like making reservations in a resturaunt, its more a guarantee than compulsory.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

On 22. Aug 2019, at 18:52, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:

You can usually walk into a hairdressers to make an appointment and if they are not busy they will not turn you away.

Its just those with an appointment will get priority. Much like making reservations in a resturaunt, its more a guarantee than compulsory.


in both cases it depends. There are restaurants where reservations are compulsory, and there are such hairdressers.


Cheers Martin 

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Re: How to distinguish public and private offices?

Warin
On 23/08/19 07:18, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 22. Aug 2019, at 18:52, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:

You can usually walk into a hairdressers to make an appointment and if they are not busy they will not turn you away.

Its just those with an appointment will get priority. Much like making reservations in a resturaunt, its more a guarantee than compulsory.


in both cases it depends. There are restaurants where reservations are compulsory, and there are such hairdressers.



Some camp grounds require pre booking and pre payment.

Some camp grounds are so popular during peak season they run a lottery to see who gets a camp site.

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