How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

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How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

ebel
Hi all,

Is there a good way to tag "hostile architecture"? To take a common
example: How should one map a bench that one cannot physically lie down on?

  * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_architecture
  * https://hostiledesign.org/
  * an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_bench

I'd define this type of bench as: "The bench is about as long as an
average person's height, but is physically designed in a way that makes
it impossible, or very hard, for someone to lie down on it"

Suggestions? `sleepable=yes/no` (my current favourite) `can_lie=yes/no`?
`lie=yes/no`? ? `lieable=yes/no` `lyable=yes/no`? Or
`bench:architecture=hostile`?

There has been some discussion on reddit:

*
https://www.reddit.com/r/openstreetmap/comments/avbmsb/is_there_a_preferred_way_of_mapping_possible/
  *
https://www.reddit.com/r/openstreetmap/comments/8rs7zf/how_to_map_antihomeless_bench/

--
R

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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

Warin
I'd describe it as friendly to sitters.
Having to sit on damp grass because all the benches are full of people
sleeping on them is not friendly to me.

On 28/02/19 17:37, Rory McCann wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Is there a good way to tag "hostile architecture"? To take a common
> example: How should one map a bench that one cannot physically lie
> down on?
>
>  * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_architecture
>  * https://hostiledesign.org/
>  * an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_bench
>
> I'd define this type of bench as: "The bench is about as long as an
> average person's height, but is physically designed in a way that
> makes it impossible, or very hard, for someone to lie down on it"
>
> Suggestions? `sleepable=yes/no` (my current favourite)
> `can_lie=yes/no`? `lie=yes/no`? ? `lieable=yes/no` `lyable=yes/no`? Or
> `bench:architecture=hostile`?
>
> There has been some discussion on reddit:
>
> *
> https://www.reddit.com/r/openstreetmap/comments/avbmsb/is_there_a_preferred_way_of_mapping_possible/
>  *
> https://www.reddit.com/r/openstreetmap/comments/8rs7zf/how_to_map_antihomeless_bench/
>


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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by ebel


Am Do., 28. Feb. 2019 um 07:39 Uhr schrieb Rory McCann <[hidden email]>:
Hi all,

Is there a good way to tag "hostile architecture"? To take a common
example: How should one map a bench that one cannot physically lie down on?

  * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_architecture
  * https://hostiledesign.org/
  * an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_bench

I'd define this type of bench as: "The bench is about as long as an
average person's height, but is physically designed in a way that makes
it impossible, or very hard, for someone to lie down on it"

Suggestions? `sleepable=yes/no` (my current favourite) `can_lie=yes/no`?
`lie=yes/no`? ? `lieable=yes/no` `lyable=yes/no`? Or
`bench:architecture=hostile`?



Interesting topic. It may very often be difficult to make a clear assesment though, especially if the tag is "hostile", because, like Warin pointed out, what is hostile to one person may be desirable for another. One might critize the unsuitability of a bench to sleep on, but on the other hand, there may be better solutions with regard to people who have no place to sleep, than benches. Generally, benches are made to sit on, so truly and unquestionably hostile would be benches where you cannot sit on.
Or what about benches that are so short you cannot sleep on? These may be designed purposefully against people sleeping on them, but is being "long enough to sleep" a general requirement for benches? They may also be designed short for different reasons. Or places where only chairs have been put, is this hostile because it could have been benches? Truly hostile are also environments with no place to sit on :)

When these features call the attention, it is often because of change. Something that was in a certain way, is purposefully changed in order to stear behaviour (like those benches you posted, that now have a separating barrier in the middle).

Other "features" that come to mind are safety features to prevent undesirable behaviour, e.g. staircase handrails designed against sliding http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4hvm7E4oTYo/maxresdefault.jpg
It clearly is hostile to the fun of sliding down a handrail, but it may be a lifesaver ;-)

What about spikes and glass pieces (or barbed wire) on top of walls? To me, these always look very hostile, although I am never climbing over perimeter walls, and would not expect anyone but burglars to do so, i.e. it may be legitimate to protect your property like this, but it sends a hostile message to the world.

One of the links you posted refered to pictures of surveillance cams. There is no clear opinion on these in society, some consider them hostile, others call for them.

To sum it up, I would tend to prefer "objective" criteria (can lie on the bench or not, broken glass on top of the wall, surveillance cam present, bumps on handrails) over judgmental tagging like "hostile archicture".
This doesn't exclude to set up a wikipage where we collect examples of things that may be perceived as hostile (and call it like this), with suggested tagging.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

dieterdreist
Am Do., 28. Feb. 2019 um 10:14 Uhr schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:

When these features call the attention, it is often because of change. Something that was in a certain way, is purposefully changed in order to stear behaviour (like those benches you posted, that now have a separating barrier in the middle).



different example is here:
(historic situation)
(supposedly) homeless people were living and sleeping under these arcades, and after some years the whole arcades were closed for pedestrians:

I would consider this a hostile act, although the same feature on a construction site would not be.

Or the removal of drinking water fountains and benches, so that people are more likely to sit in a cafe and consume (hard to tag the absence of a feature though).

There may also be cultural differences, e.g. setting up fences and gates on public parks to close them at night. In some cultural context this is perfectly normal, in others it would be really unusual.

Or subtle changes which do not need actual structural change, but only different behaviour, e.g. "semi-public" areas (shared spaces between several properties), which used to be open (at least during the day), although there always have been gates, and where the gates now are always closed.

In general, fencing off formerly accessible areas may be seen as an hostile act by many (although backed by property laws).

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by ebel



Feb 28, 2019, 7:37 AM by [hidden email]:
Hi all,

Is there a good way to tag "hostile architecture"? To take a common example: How should one map a bench that one cannot physically lie down on?


I'd define this type of bench as: "The bench is about as long as an average person's height, but is physically designed in a way that makes it impossible, or very hard, for someone to lie down on it"

Suggestions? `sleepable=yes/no` (my current favourite) `can_lie=yes/no`? `lie=yes/no`? ? `lieable=yes/no` `lyable=yes/no`? Or `bench:architecture=hostile`?

There has been some discussion on reddit:

I second reddit suggestion to use objective criteria. For example tag presence of additional
armrest in the middle and width rather than tag `bench:architecture=hostile`.

In one case that I am familiar with I would tag something like
 - armrest_count=3 (there is one in the middle)
 - depth=XYZ (as bench is made so one would fall from it on attempt to lie there)

I would also create a proposal for this tags if this turned out to be useful.

sleepable=yes/no is for me problematic as it can be easily confused with "is it OK to sleep there".

`bench:architecture=hostile` has multiple problems - it is unclear (what it means? that it was built
during Russian occupation?), subjective and it shows clear opinion in social topic.

It is preferable to use tags that are as objective as possible.


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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

OSMDoudou
> I second reddit suggestion to use objective criteria.

Totally agreed.

From OSM perspective, we describe how the things are, not so much how they feel and what are the intentions. That is to say, the question whether something is friendly or hostile is a decision of the inventors and the users of the bench, not for the mapper.

It's similar to an earlier discussion in this list about "biker-friendly" places. The infrastructure and services people consider as friendly to biker can be mapped.

Or similar to discussion about rating places and qualifying them as of "good or bad quality", like hotel stars. Number of starts issued by a certification authority can be mapped, but whether it really means "quality" is totally personal and cannot be mapped.

By the way, there is already a tag for the number of places on a bench: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:seats. And for width, length and height.

Users can conclude that a 1,8 m wide bench made of 3 seats is not intended to be lied on, even less so if each seat has armchairs.

So, maybe no new tag is needed ?


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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

dieterdreist

Am Do., 28. Feb. 2019 um 11:46 Uhr schrieb OSMDoudou <[hidden email]>:
By the way, there is already a tag for the number of places on a bench: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:seats. And for width, length and height.


we could add  a tag how many people can lie on the bench as well. If there are physical impediments against lying (as in "staying in a horizontal position") the value could be 0.
Not sure about a good word for the tag, maybe "lying_capacity"?

Btw.: from a 1.8m long bench I would conclude that one person could lie on it, as long as she isn't much longer than that. It may also be a question how the ends are made, it may not be a problem to have your feet pending, if it is physically possible. There are many parameters, therefor being explicit ("how many people can lie here") seems the most useful approach to answering this question.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

OSMDoudou
In reply to this post by ebel
Wiki describes a bench as a place to sit on.

Lying on some benches is possible but sounds like a hack, as the "friendly vs. hostile" point of views proves.

I wouldn't tag the hacks that can be done of things.

A bit like we don't tag urbex ("urban exploration") but tag abandonned industrial places.
On 2/28/19, 12:04 Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am Do., 28. Feb. 2019 um 11:46 Uhr schrieb OSMDoudou <[hidden email]>:
By the way, there is already a tag for the number of places on a bench: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:seats. And for width, length and height.


we could add  a tag how many people can lie on the bench as well. If there are physical impediments against lying (as in "staying in a horizontal position") the value could be 0.
Not sure about a good word for the tag, maybe "lying_capacity"?

Btw.: from a 1.8m long bench I would conclude that one person could lie on it, as long as she isn't much longer than that. It may also be a question how the ends are made, it may not be a problem to have your feet pending, if it is physically possible. There are many parameters, therefor being explicit ("how many people can lie here") seems the most useful approach to answering this question.

Cheers,
Martin

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sleepable:physical=yes/no? Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

ebel
In reply to this post by ebel
Hi all,

On 28/02/2019 11:12, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
 > sleepable=yes/no is for me problematic as it can be easily confused
 > with "is it OK to sleep there".

A good point. Some tags refer to legal access (foot/bicycle), some are
more about physical (e.g. wheelchair, track_type). We did just have a
issue with StreetComplete & foot=yes/no tags!

What about `sleepable:physical=yes/no`? It's clear that it's about "can
you *physically* sleep on this bench".

On 28/02/2019 11:12, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
 > For example tag presence of additional armrest in the middle and
 > width ...
 >   - armrest_count=3 (there is one in the middle)
 >   - depth=XYZ (as bench is made so one would fall from it on attempt
 > to lie there)

Here's a famous one which doesn't use armrests:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_bench Here's one which has 2 arm
rests, but not at the ends ( https://imgur.com/a/bVcxeRS ). Tagging
armrests might be interesting, but it doesn't answer the question of
"can someone physically sleep here (and has it been modified/designed to
prevent that)".

Tagging "depth" is certainly OK, but it's hard to measure. I can walk
past a bench and see if one can physically lie there, but I can't know
the depth unless I get a measuring tape.


On 28/02/2019 09:24, Warin wrote:
> I'd describe it as friendly to sitters.

On 28/02/2019 10:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> To sum it up, I would tend to prefer "objective" criteria

On 28/02/2019 11:12, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> I second reddit suggestion to use objective criteria.

On 28/02/2019 11:44, OSMDoudou wrote:
> From OSM perspective, we describe how the things are, not so much
> how they feel and what are the intentions.

Perhaps I was unclear, 🙂 I 100% support objective, clear
definitions (and tags). Hence why I gave a (I think) objective
definition/categorisation rule, and suggested many objective,
value-neutral tags. I used "hostile architecture" because the term is
used elsewhere.

Here I'm just asking about benches. Because it's easier, they're common
and we already map benches.

On 28/02/2019 10:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Or what about benches that are so short you cannot sleep on? These may
> be designed purposefully against people sleeping on them, but is being
> "long enough to sleep" a general requirement for benches?

I want to know how to map (what is called) "hostile architecture", so
"long enough to sleep on" is a useful rule here.

On 28/02/2019 10:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> there may be better solutions with regard to people who have no
> place to sleep than benches.

Unfortunately, radical changes to the global economic system to prevent
homelessness is outside the scope of the tagging mailing list.

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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

Jmapb
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3

On 2/28/2019 5:12 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

sleepable=yes/no is for me problematic as it can be easily confused with "is it OK to sleep there".

`bench:architecture=hostile` has multiple problems - it is unclear (what it means? that it was built
during Russian occupation?), subjective and it shows clear opinion in social topic.

It is preferable to use tags that are as objective as possible.

It's important to realize that the term 'hostile' has a certain meaning in the realm of architecture, and need not necessarily be seen as judgmental. (Gothic architecture, for instance, was originally a slur implying primitive barbaric style.) That said, if the situation can be described using simple factual terminology that would be better, since interpreting it wouldn't require any extra knowledge.

I agree with your objection to 'sleepable=yes' -- it implies permission, like an access tag. So we might consider 'sitting=only' or 'sitting_only=yes'.

Jason


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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

OSMDoudou
In reply to this post by ebel
Interesting. There is a tag building:architecture. So, if hostile is a style of architecture that architects recognize for benches, then it could be done for benches.

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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

Paul Allen
On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 at 15:39, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Interesting. There is a tag building:architecture. So, if hostile is a style of architecture that architects recognize for benches,

It is a recognized style of architecture which goes by many names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_architecture

Benches are one target, but there are several alternatives to multiple arm-rests, such as the

It doesn't just apply to benches but also such things as pedestrian areas (with cats-head cobbles or
worse), steps (with studs in) and even anti-urination devices:

I'm not sure how we could begin to cover all the possibilities but it's clear that tags about sleepability
don't cover all the possibilities (some hostile architecture is to deter skateboarding).  Even
tags about arm-rests don't cover all the ways of deterring people from sleeping on benches.
 
then it could be done for benches.

I'm not even sure it's needful for benches.  Nice to know, maybe, but only if you're homeless yet
also have a working smartphone and data plan.  OTOH, those Camden benches look very
uncomfortable even for sitting on, so if I were looking for a bench to sit on I'd want to avoid those.

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Re: sleepable:physical=yes/no? Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

Tordanik
In reply to this post by ebel
On 28.02.19 16:15, Rory McCann wrote:
> What about `sleepable:physical=yes/no`? It's clear that it's about "can
> you *physically* sleep on this bench".

Seems sufficiently verifiable and neutral to me. If we're going with a
single-purpose tag, it's a good candidate.

I don't think it's the best possible solution, though. As mentioned on
Reddit, I prefer tags that have more than one use case. Information
about the physical properties of a bench can be used by sleepers, but
also by those looking for benches with armrests that help them get back
up, for 3d models, etc. A dedicated "sleepable" tag is not useful for
anything else.

> Tagging
> armrests might be interesting, but it doesn't answer the question of
> "can someone physically sleep here (and has it been modified/designed to
> prevent that)".

It doesn't answer that question on its own, but it does when combined
with other tags (e.g. for non-horizontal surfaces).

Tobias

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Re: How to map Hostile Architecture? e.g. benches you can't lie/sleep on?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
Seem to remember we talked about this a while back in regard to really skinny / sloped benches in bus stops or similar, that you can only perch on, rather than sitting down properly, & that are intended to stop people sleeping on them?

Can't see anything under =bench for a tagging solution though?

Thanks

Graeme

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