How to map alleys in African cities?

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How to map alleys in African cities?

john whelan-2
I'm not even sure if this is the best place to raise this but Africa covers a lot of countries.

We have some agreement on how to map highways in general Africa but narrow residential highways are a problem.  I suspect highway=residential plus a width tag might be best.  

South Africa I think has local mappers who able to resolve any problems but for the rest of Africa given the large number of armchair mappers mapping there some guidance would be nice.

Some mappers use highway=service generously.

Is it possible to reach some sort of general concenus? 

Thoughts?

Thanks John

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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

pierzen
I we follow the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I initiated in 2013, narrow highways should be evaluaed on the type of traffic possible
- highway= residential in residential areas if at least passable by 4 wheels
- highway=path if only motorcycles, bicyles and foot traffic is possible.


The additions made to the wiki page a few months ago about the width add confusion. I think that we should simply move this in a separate section giving guidance on possible widths that represent the various types of highways.

regard
 
Pierre


Le mardi 14 novembre 2017 16:14:22 HNE, john whelan <[hidden email]> a écrit :


I'm not even sure if this is the best place to raise this but Africa covers a lot of countries.

We have some agreement on how to map highways in general Africa but narrow residential highways are a problem.  I suspect highway=residential plus a width tag might be best.  

South Africa I think has local mappers who able to resolve any problems but for the rest of Africa given the large number of armchair mappers mapping there some guidance would be nice.

Some mappers use highway=service generously.

Is it possible to reach some sort of general concenus? 

Thoughts?

Thanks John
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

john whelan-2
That seems very sensible.

Thanks John

On 14 November 2017 at 16:26, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
I we follow the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I initiated in 2013, narrow highways should be evaluaed on the type of traffic possible
- highway= residential in residential areas if at least passable by 4 wheels
- highway=path if only motorcycles, bicyles and foot traffic is possible.


The additions made to the wiki page a few months ago about the width add confusion. I think that we should simply move this in a separate section giving guidance on possible widths that represent the various types of highways.

regard
 
Pierre


Le mardi 14 novembre 2017 16:14:22 HNE, john whelan <[hidden email]> a écrit :


I'm not even sure if this is the best place to raise this but Africa covers a lot of countries.

We have some agreement on how to map highways in general Africa but narrow residential highways are a problem.  I suspect highway=residential plus a width tag might be best.  

South Africa I think has local mappers who able to resolve any problems but for the rest of Africa given the large number of armchair mappers mapping there some guidance would be nice.

Some mappers use highway=service generously.

Is it possible to reach some sort of general concenus? 

Thoughts?

Thanks John
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

Andrew Buck
Pierre's suggestions are a good guideline in general and I don't have
any disagreements with them.

I did, however want to expand a bit on the idea of when to use service
roads, so here is that...

I for one am in favor of additionally making liberal (but careful) use
of highway=service.

A service road is like a residential road, but is not meant to be used
for "through traffic" but rather as the first or last leg of a longer
journey.  With this in mind, I offer up the following example as a good
guideline (or case study) of how this should look in practice:

Several years ago, I traced the roads in Ibadan, Nigeria.  It was nearly
a blank map when I started so I had complete freedom in deciding how to
classify them (this was years before "highway tag africa").  I started
by just marking nearly everything as highway=residential.  Then after
the whole city was mapped I spend some time just looking at the finished
map and the roads overlaid on the satellite imagery.  After taking in
this "whole city view" for a while I began to see patterns in how the
roads were laid out, and these patterns suggested which roads should be
downgraded to service.

In the case of Ibadan there are little "pocket communities" of people,
separated by streams with a few roads crossing the streams but a dense
network within each community.  So after digesting the map, and seeing
how the town was structured, I decided I would downgrade all the roads
that only served to access buildings within one community, but were not
part of the routing if you were traveling outside of the community.
This lead to a marked improvement in the quality of the map, which you
can see in the two links below.  Although I finished tracing all the
roads, I didn't finish all the classifications, so you can see a good
"before and after" of how much better it looks with proper use of
service roads.

Here is a "before" section where all the roads are left as residential:

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/7.3354/3.9118

And here is an "after" section where I have downgraded local-access-only
roads to service but left the rest as residential.  Notice how much more
clearly you can see the neighborhoods, and also how much easier it is to
follow a route, without having to use a route planning tool.  You can
navigate just by looking at the map.

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/7.3933/3.9598

In the second example above you can actually see some areas of all
residential to the east, so there is a very clear difference between the
two sections.

Obviously every town will be slightly different, but I think this is the
general rule we should follow:

   if you use the road mainly for accessing buildings (even if it is
   a fairly large number of them) but not for long distance travel,
   then the road should be downgraded to service.

After you spend a bit of time looking at the whole town, and keeping
this rule in mind, you will get a good sense of what to downgrade.  Then
it is just a matter of going through and applying it.

Anyway, hope this all makes sense to people.  I had been meaning to
write it up for a while now and this seemed like a good opportunity.
Maybe I will try to go through and finish up Ibadan, I am a lot faster
at this now than I was back then, so it wouldn't take me long.  I will
leave it for the time being so it doesn't break the examples.  If people
think this sounds reasonable, maybe we should grab some before and after
screenshots for the wiki to document this.

-AndrewBuck




On 11/14/2017 03:30 PM, john whelan wrote:

> That seems very sensible.
>
> Thanks John
>
> On 14 November 2017 at 16:26, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I we follow the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I initiated in 2013, narrow
>> highways should be evaluaed on the type of traffic possible
>> - highway= residential in residential areas if at least passable by 4
>> wheels
>> - highway=path if only motorcycles, bicyles and foot traffic is possible.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa
>>
>> The additions made to the wiki page a few months ago about the width add
>> confusion. I think that we should simply move this in a separate section
>> giving guidance on possible widths that represent the various types of
>> highways.
>>
>> regard
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>>
>> Le mardi 14 novembre 2017 16:14:22 HNE, john whelan <[hidden email]>
>> a écrit :
>>
>>
>> I'm not even sure if this is the best place to raise this but Africa
>> covers a lot of countries.
>>
>> We have some agreement on how to map highways in general Africa but narrow
>> residential highways are a problem.  I suspect highway=residential plus a
>> width tag might be best.
>>
>> South Africa I think has local mappers who able to resolve any problems
>> but for the rest of Africa given the large number of armchair mappers
>> mapping there some guidance would be nice.
>>
>> Some mappers use highway=service generously.
>>
>> Is it possible to reach some sort of general concenus?
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks John
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


_______________________________________________
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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

Gaurav Thapa
Youthmappers initiative actually has a very large presence in Africa and in particular local mappers of Ghana, Uganda and Nigeria are very active. They don't use the talk pages but maybe we can bring them on board to improve

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa

or create country specific pages.

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 4:15 AM, Andrew Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
Pierre's suggestions are a good guideline in general and I don't have
any disagreements with them.

I did, however want to expand a bit on the idea of when to use service
roads, so here is that...

I for one am in favor of additionally making liberal (but careful) use
of highway=service.

A service road is like a residential road, but is not meant to be used
for "through traffic" but rather as the first or last leg of a longer
journey.  With this in mind, I offer up the following example as a good
guideline (or case study) of how this should look in practice:

Several years ago, I traced the roads in Ibadan, Nigeria.  It was nearly
a blank map when I started so I had complete freedom in deciding how to
classify them (this was years before "highway tag africa").  I started
by just marking nearly everything as highway=residential.  Then after
the whole city was mapped I spend some time just looking at the finished
map and the roads overlaid on the satellite imagery.  After taking in
this "whole city view" for a while I began to see patterns in how the
roads were laid out, and these patterns suggested which roads should be
downgraded to service.

In the case of Ibadan there are little "pocket communities" of people,
separated by streams with a few roads crossing the streams but a dense
network within each community.  So after digesting the map, and seeing
how the town was structured, I decided I would downgrade all the roads
that only served to access buildings within one community, but were not
part of the routing if you were traveling outside of the community.
This lead to a marked improvement in the quality of the map, which you
can see in the two links below.  Although I finished tracing all the
roads, I didn't finish all the classifications, so you can see a good
"before and after" of how much better it looks with proper use of
service roads.

Here is a "before" section where all the roads are left as residential:

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/7.3354/3.9118

And here is an "after" section where I have downgraded local-access-only
roads to service but left the rest as residential.  Notice how much more
clearly you can see the neighborhoods, and also how much easier it is to
follow a route, without having to use a route planning tool.  You can
navigate just by looking at the map.

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/7.3933/3.9598

In the second example above you can actually see some areas of all
residential to the east, so there is a very clear difference between the
two sections.

Obviously every town will be slightly different, but I think this is the
general rule we should follow:

   if you use the road mainly for accessing buildings (even if it is
   a fairly large number of them) but not for long distance travel,
   then the road should be downgraded to service.

After you spend a bit of time looking at the whole town, and keeping
this rule in mind, you will get a good sense of what to downgrade.  Then
it is just a matter of going through and applying it.

Anyway, hope this all makes sense to people.  I had been meaning to
write it up for a while now and this seemed like a good opportunity.
Maybe I will try to go through and finish up Ibadan, I am a lot faster
at this now than I was back then, so it wouldn't take me long.  I will
leave it for the time being so it doesn't break the examples.  If people
think this sounds reasonable, maybe we should grab some before and after
screenshots for the wiki to document this.

-AndrewBuck




On 11/14/2017 03:30 PM, john whelan wrote:
> That seems very sensible.
>
> Thanks John
>
> On 14 November 2017 at 16:26, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I we follow the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I initiated in 2013, narrow
>> highways should be evaluaed on the type of traffic possible
>> - highway= residential in residential areas if at least passable by 4
>> wheels
>> - highway=path if only motorcycles, bicyles and foot traffic is possible.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa
>>
>> The additions made to the wiki page a few months ago about the width add
>> confusion. I think that we should simply move this in a separate section
>> giving guidance on possible widths that represent the various types of
>> highways.
>>
>> regard
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>>
>> Le mardi 14 novembre 2017 16:14:22 HNE, john whelan <[hidden email]>
>> a écrit :
>>
>>
>> I'm not even sure if this is the best place to raise this but Africa
>> covers a lot of countries.
>>
>> We have some agreement on how to map highways in general Africa but narrow
>> residential highways are a problem.  I suspect highway=residential plus a
>> width tag might be best.
>>
>> South Africa I think has local mappers who able to resolve any problems
>> but for the rest of Africa given the large number of armchair mappers
>> mapping there some guidance would be nice.
>>
>> Some mappers use highway=service generously.
>>
>> Is it possible to reach some sort of general concenus?
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks John
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk




--
Gaurav Thapa
Project Manager
Secondary Cities Pokhara Project
Kathmandu Living Labs

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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

pierzen
From discussions since 2013 with various african OSM communities and other continents with similar realities, it appears that this wiki page is quite usefull to help classifiy the highways in these countries.  

The objective was to simplify, clarify how to tag highways. Adding pages by country would not faciliate the task, would add confusion.

About Andrew proposition, I dont understand why to use the hierarchy set (residential, service) instead of (tertiary, residential). With such classification, there is nothing between motorways / primary and residential highways.
 
Pierre


Le mardi 14 novembre 2017 22:10:38 HNE, Gaurav Thapa <[hidden email]> a écrit :


Youthmappers initiative actually has a very large presence in Africa and in particular local mappers of Ghana, Uganda and Nigeria are very active. They don't use the talk pages but maybe we can bring them on board to improve

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org /wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa

or create country specific pages.

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 4:15 AM, Andrew Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
Pierre's suggestions are a good guideline in general and I don't have
any disagreements with them.

I did, however want to expand a bit on the idea of when to use service
roads, so here is that...

I for one am in favor of additionally making liberal (but careful) use
of highway=service.

A service road is like a residential road, but is not meant to be used
for "through traffic" but rather as the first or last leg of a longer
journey.  With this in mind, I offer up the following example as a good
guideline (or case study) of how this should look in practice:

Several years ago, I traced the roads in Ibadan, Nigeria.  It was nearly
a blank map when I started so I had complete freedom in deciding how to
classify them (this was years before "highway tag africa").  I started
by just marking nearly everything as highway=residential.  Then after
the whole city was mapped I spend some time just looking at the finished
map and the roads overlaid on the satellite imagery.  After taking in
this "whole city view" for a while I began to see patterns in how the
roads were laid out, and these patterns suggested which roads should be
downgraded to service.

In the case of Ibadan there are little "pocket communities" of people,
separated by streams with a few roads crossing the streams but a dense
network within each community.  So after digesting the map, and seeing
how the town was structured, I decided I would downgrade all the roads
that only served to access buildings within one community, but were not
part of the routing if you were traveling outside of the community.
This lead to a marked improvement in the quality of the map, which you
can see in the two links below.  Although I finished tracing all the
roads, I didn't finish all the classifications, so you can see a good
"before and after" of how much better it looks with proper use of
service roads.

Here is a "before" section where all the roads are left as residential:

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/ #map=15/7.3354/3.9118

And here is an "after" section where I have downgraded local-access-only
roads to service but left the rest as residential.  Notice how much more
clearly you can see the neighborhoods, and also how much easier it is to
follow a route, without having to use a route planning tool.  You can
navigate just by looking at the map.

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/ #map=15/7.3933/3.9598

In the second example above you can actually see some areas of all
residential to the east, so there is a very clear difference between the
two sections.

Obviously every town will be slightly different, but I think this is the
general rule we should follow:

   if you use the road mainly for accessing buildings (even if it is
   a fairly large number of them) but not for long distance travel,
   then the road should be downgraded to service.

After you spend a bit of time looking at the whole town, and keeping
this rule in mind, you will get a good sense of what to downgrade.  Then
it is just a matter of going through and applying it.

Anyway, hope this all makes sense to people.  I had been meaning to
write it up for a while now and this seemed like a good opportunity.
Maybe I will try to go through and finish up Ibadan, I am a lot faster
at this now than I was back then, so it wouldn't take me long.  I will
leave it for the time being so it doesn't break the examples.  If people
think this sounds reasonable, maybe we should grab some before and after
screenshots for the wiki to document this.

-AndrewBuck




On 11/14/2017 03:30 PM, john whelan wrote:
> That seems very sensible.
>
> Thanks John
>
> On 14 November 2017 at 16:26, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I we follow the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I initiated in 2013, narrow
>> highways should be evaluaed on the type of traffic possible
>> - highway= residential in residential areas if at least passable by 4
>> wheels
>> - highway=path if only motorcycles, bicyles and foot traffic is possible.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap. org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa
>>
>> The additions made to the wiki page a few months ago about the width add
>> confusion. I think that we should simply move this in a separate section
>> giving guidance on possible widths that represent the various types of
>> highways.
>>
>> regard
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>>
>> Le mardi 14 novembre 2017 16:14:22 HNE, john whelan <[hidden email]>
>> a écrit :
>>
>>
>> I'm not even sure if this is the best place to raise this but Africa
>> covers a lot of countries.
>>
>> We have some agreement on how to map highways in general Africa but narrow
>> residential highways are a problem.  I suspect highway=residential plus a
>> width tag might be best.
>>
>> South Africa I think has local mappers who able to resolve any problems
>> but for the rest of Africa given the large number of armchair mappers
>> mapping there some guidance would be nice.
>>
>> Some mappers use highway=service generously.
>>
>> Is it possible to reach some sort of general concenus?
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks John
>> ______________________________ _________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap. org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap. org/listinfo/talk
>



______________________________ _________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap. org/listinfo/talk




--
Gaurav Thapa
Project Manager
Secondary Cities Pokhara Project
Kathmandu Living Labs

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

Palolo
In reply to this post by Andrew Buck
I agree with Pierre's description of highway=residential and highway=path.
I also believe it is a good idea to tag driveways and roads to compounds as highway=service.

A problem I commonly see in residential areas in Africa is highway=track.
It seems to be a little condescending for remote mappers to tag roads as tracks just because they don't look like residential roads in Europe or North America.

Another recurring problem is highway=living_street, this tag is misleading and confusing for native English and non-native English speakers alike.

If the road provides access to a couple of dwellings and doesn't connect through to other roads then highway=service is appropriate. One exception I suppose would be an "alley" behind houses that just goes between two other residential roads.  In that case the classification is based on function due to a construction constraint (the width).

Regards,

Emmor


On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 2:30 PM, Andrew Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
Pierre's suggestions are a good guideline in general and I don't have
any disagreements with them.

I did, however want to expand a bit on the idea of when to use service
roads, so here is that...

I for one am in favor of additionally making liberal (but careful) use
of highway=service.

A service road is like a residential road, but is not meant to be used
for "through traffic" but rather as the first or last leg of a longer
journey.  With this in mind, I offer up the following example as a good
guideline (or case study) of how this should look in practice:

Several years ago, I traced the roads in Ibadan, Nigeria.  It was nearly
a blank map when I started so I had complete freedom in deciding how to
classify them (this was years before "highway tag africa").  I started
by just marking nearly everything as highway=residential.  Then after
the whole city was mapped I spend some time just looking at the finished
map and the roads overlaid on the satellite imagery.  After taking in
this "whole city view" for a while I began to see patterns in how the
roads were laid out, and these patterns suggested which roads should be
downgraded to service.

In the case of Ibadan there are little "pocket communities" of people,
separated by streams with a few roads crossing the streams but a dense
network within each community.  So after digesting the map, and seeing
how the town was structured, I decided I would downgrade all the roads
that only served to access buildings within one community, but were not
part of the routing if you were traveling outside of the community.
This lead to a marked improvement in the quality of the map, which you
can see in the two links below.  Although I finished tracing all the
roads, I didn't finish all the classifications, so you can see a good
"before and after" of how much better it looks with proper use of
service roads.

Here is a "before" section where all the roads are left as residential:

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/7.3354/3.9118

And here is an "after" section where I have downgraded local-access-only
roads to service but left the rest as residential.  Notice how much more
clearly you can see the neighborhoods, and also how much easier it is to
follow a route, without having to use a route planning tool.  You can
navigate just by looking at the map.

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/7.3933/3.9598

In the second example above you can actually see some areas of all
residential to the east, so there is a very clear difference between the
two sections.

Obviously every town will be slightly different, but I think this is the
general rule we should follow:

   if you use the road mainly for accessing buildings (even if it is
   a fairly large number of them) but not for long distance travel,
   then the road should be downgraded to service.

After you spend a bit of time looking at the whole town, and keeping
this rule in mind, you will get a good sense of what to downgrade.  Then
it is just a matter of going through and applying it.

Anyway, hope this all makes sense to people.  I had been meaning to
write it up for a while now and this seemed like a good opportunity.
Maybe I will try to go through and finish up Ibadan, I am a lot faster
at this now than I was back then, so it wouldn't take me long.  I will
leave it for the time being so it doesn't break the examples.  If people
think this sounds reasonable, maybe we should grab some before and after
screenshots for the wiki to document this.

-AndrewBuck




On 11/14/2017 03:30 PM, john whelan wrote:
> That seems very sensible.
>
> Thanks John
>
> On 14 November 2017 at 16:26, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I we follow the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I initiated in 2013, narrow
>> highways should be evaluaed on the type of traffic possible
>> - highway= residential in residential areas if at least passable by 4
>> wheels
>> - highway=path if only motorcycles, bicyles and foot traffic is possible.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa
>>
>> The additions made to the wiki page a few months ago about the width add
>> confusion. I think that we should simply move this in a separate section
>> giving guidance on possible widths that represent the various types of
>> highways.
>>
>> regard
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>>
>> Le mardi 14 novembre 2017 16:14:22 HNE, john whelan <[hidden email]>
>> a écrit :
>>
>>
>> I'm not even sure if this is the best place to raise this but Africa
>> covers a lot of countries.
>>
>> We have some agreement on how to map highways in general Africa but narrow
>> residential highways are a problem.  I suspect highway=residential plus a
>> width tag might be best.
>>
>> South Africa I think has local mappers who able to resolve any problems
>> but for the rest of Africa given the large number of armchair mappers
>> mapping there some guidance would be nice.
>>
>> Some mappers use highway=service generously.
>>
>> Is it possible to reach some sort of general concenus?
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks John
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Andrew Buck
I was curious to view some photos of these streets. There are several
English Wikipedia articles for Ibadan, Nigeria:

http://ausleuchtung.ch/geo_wiki/?lat=7.369838460195496&lng=3.9120769500732426&zm=14&lang=en&ds=wiki&rd=10

and several French Wikipedia articles:

http://ausleuchtung.ch/geo_wiki/?lat=7.372647464951621&lng=3.9178276062011714&zm=14&lang=fr&ds=wiki&rd=10

Surprisingly, almost all these Wikipedia articles are without photos.
Adding some ground and aerial photos would make much clearer what kind
of streets and alleys are these. For example, this stadium and park in
Eurasia are illustrated in such a way that it is possible to see the
subject and its surroundings on the ground:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_sportif_du_Bout-du-Monde
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parc_Baud-Bovy

And the article of the Obafemi Awolowo Stadium in Ibadan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obafemi_Awolowo_Stadium though existing in
several languages, German, Spanish, etc. is without any photo.

I mean it is possible also to clarify a character of streets and alleys
of a place with some ground and aerial images in a corresponding
Wikipedia article and Wikimedia category.

Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 14.11.17 23:30, Andrew Buck wrote:

> [...]
> Several years ago, I traced the roads in Ibadan, Nigeria.  ...
> Here is a "before" section where all the roads are left as residential:
>
>    https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/7.3354/3.9118
>
> And here is an "after" section [...]
>    https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/7.3933/3.9598
>
> [...]


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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by john whelan-2


sent from a phone

> On 14. Nov 2017, at 22:12, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Some mappers use highway=service generously.



I’m also using highway=service with service=alley and width for small residential ways in historic centres (mostly small towns and villages, although it is formally allowed to drive there, you’d often have problems by car due to sharp angles and very narrow width, while you can perfectly use them with motorcycles, scooters or sometimes with small cars).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

SimonPoole
This is an oldie but goldie. North American use of the term "alley" is
in practical terms very different than the rest of the world. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley

The tagging in OSM (highway=service, service=alley) tends to correspond
more to the NA usage than to that elsewhere (which would likely have
been better served with a highway=alley, but too late for that now).

Back to African cities: my gut feeling is that if the road is passable
and used by small vehicles, and provides access  to the buildings along
it, it is not a path but an alley. BUT this is clearly a call that the
local contributors should make.

Simon



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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

Andrew Buck
In reply to this post by pierzen
I do still use tertiaries and above for higher level roads in accordance
with the Highway Tag Africa scheme.  I was merely giving an example of
how I classify a service road.

-AndrewBuck


On 11/14/2017 09:48 PM, Pierre Béland wrote:

> From discussions since 2013 with various african OSM communities and other continents with similar realities, it appears that this wiki page is quite usefull to help classifiy the highways in these countries.  
> The objective was to simplify, clarify how to tag highways. Adding pages by country would not faciliate the task, would add confusion.
> About Andrew proposition, I dont understand why to use the hierarchy set (residential, service) instead of (tertiary, residential). With such classification, there is nothing between motorways / primary and residential highways.
>  
> Pierre
>  
>
>     Le mardi 14 novembre 2017 22:10:38 HNE, Gaurav Thapa <[hidden email]> a écrit :  
>  
>  Youthmappers initiative actually has a very large presence in Africa and in particular local mappers of Ghana, Uganda and Nigeria are very active. They don't use the talk pages but maybe we can bring them on board to improve
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org /wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa
>
> or create country specific pages.
>  
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 4:15 AM, Andrew Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Pierre's suggestions are a good guideline in general and I don't have
> any disagreements with them.
>
> I did, however want to expand a bit on the idea of when to use service
> roads, so here is that...
>
> I for one am in favor of additionally making liberal (but careful) use
> of highway=service.
>
> A service road is like a residential road, but is not meant to be used
> for "through traffic" but rather as the first or last leg of a longer
> journey.  With this in mind, I offer up the following example as a good
> guideline (or case study) of how this should look in practice:
>
> Several years ago, I traced the roads in Ibadan, Nigeria.  It was nearly
> a blank map when I started so I had complete freedom in deciding how to
> classify them (this was years before "highway tag africa").  I started
> by just marking nearly everything as highway=residential.  Then after
> the whole city was mapped I spend some time just looking at the finished
> map and the roads overlaid on the satellite imagery.  After taking in
> this "whole city view" for a while I began to see patterns in how the
> roads were laid out, and these patterns suggested which roads should be
> downgraded to service.
>
> In the case of Ibadan there are little "pocket communities" of people,
> separated by streams with a few roads crossing the streams but a dense
> network within each community.  So after digesting the map, and seeing
> how the town was structured, I decided I would downgrade all the roads
> that only served to access buildings within one community, but were not
> part of the routing if you were traveling outside of the community.
> This lead to a marked improvement in the quality of the map, which you
> can see in the two links below.  Although I finished tracing all the
> roads, I didn't finish all the classifications, so you can see a good
> "before and after" of how much better it looks with proper use of
> service roads.
>
> Here is a "before" section where all the roads are left as residential:
>
>   https://www.openstreetmap.org/ #map=15/7.3354/3.9118
>
> And here is an "after" section where I have downgraded local-access-only
> roads to service but left the rest as residential.  Notice how much more
> clearly you can see the neighborhoods, and also how much easier it is to
> follow a route, without having to use a route planning tool.  You can
> navigate just by looking at the map.
>
>   https://www.openstreetmap.org/ #map=15/7.3933/3.9598
>
> In the second example above you can actually see some areas of all
> residential to the east, so there is a very clear difference between the
> two sections.
>
> Obviously every town will be slightly different, but I think this is the
> general rule we should follow:
>
>    if you use the road mainly for accessing buildings (even if it is
>    a fairly large number of them) but not for long distance travel,
>    then the road should be downgraded to service.
>
> After you spend a bit of time looking at the whole town, and keeping
> this rule in mind, you will get a good sense of what to downgrade.  Then
> it is just a matter of going through and applying it.
>
> Anyway, hope this all makes sense to people.  I had been meaning to
> write it up for a while now and this seemed like a good opportunity.
> Maybe I will try to go through and finish up Ibadan, I am a lot faster
> at this now than I was back then, so it wouldn't take me long.  I will
> leave it for the time being so it doesn't break the examples.  If people
> think this sounds reasonable, maybe we should grab some before and after
> screenshots for the wiki to document this.
>
> -AndrewBuck
>
>
>
>
> On 11/14/2017 03:30 PM, john whelan wrote:
>> That seems very sensible.
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>> On 14 November 2017 at 16:26, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I we follow the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I initiated in 2013, narrow
>>> highways should be evaluaed on the type of traffic possible
>>> - highway= residential in residential areas if at least passable by 4
>>> wheels
>>> - highway=path if only motorcycles, bicyles and foot traffic is possible.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap. org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa
>>>
>>> The additions made to the wiki page a few months ago about the width add
>>> confusion. I think that we should simply move this in a separate section
>>> giving guidance on possible widths that represent the various types of
>>> highways.
>>>
>>> regard
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>>
>>> Le mardi 14 novembre 2017 16:14:22 HNE, john whelan <[hidden email]>
>>> a écrit :
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not even sure if this is the best place to raise this but Africa
>>> covers a lot of countries.
>>>
>>> We have some agreement on how to map highways in general Africa but narrow
>>> residential highways are a problem.  I suspect highway=residential plus a
>>> width tag might be best.
>>>
>>> South Africa I think has local mappers who able to resolve any problems
>>> but for the rest of Africa given the large number of armchair mappers
>>> mapping there some guidance would be nice.
>>>
>>> Some mappers use highway=service generously.
>>>
>>> Is it possible to reach some sort of general concenus?
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Thanks John
>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap. org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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>
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>
>


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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

Jean-Marc Liotier
In reply to this post by pierzen
On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 21:26:02 +0000 (UTC)
Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I we follow the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I initiated in 2013,
> narrow highways should be evaluaed on the type of traffic possible -
> highway= residential in residential areas if at least passable by 4
> wheels- highway=path if only motorcycles, bicyles and foot traffic is
> possible. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa

I second Pierre's reference to the Highway Tag Africa. Residential
streets mapped as highway=service an all too common error in African
cities.

Same problem here as for highway=living_street - a conversation we had
a year ago:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2016-December/thread.html#77191

Mappers from more developed countries expect a residential street to
look like their idea of a residential street - for example the lack
of sidewalks confuses them... But it is a residential road nevertheless.

I'm partial to always using surface=* but maybe sidewalk=no will also
help make confused residential mappers happier with tagging a six-meter
wide sandy residential street with no sidewalk as
highway=residential... (I just wrote that and realize I wrote almost
the same thing last year... I'm getting old
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2016-December/077195.html)

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Re: How to map alleys in African cities?

Jorieke Vyncke
Hi guys,
Just adding in the OSM africa mailing list...
Jorieke

2017-11-15 14:15 GMT+00:00 Jean-Marc Liotier <[hidden email]>:
On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 21:26:02 +0000 (UTC)
Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I we follow the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I initiated in 2013,
> narrow highways should be evaluaed on the type of traffic possible -
> highway= residential in residential areas if at least passable by 4
> wheels- highway=path if only motorcycles, bicyles and foot traffic is
> possible. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa

I second Pierre's reference to the Highway Tag Africa. Residential
streets mapped as highway=service an all too common error in African
cities.

Same problem here as for highway=living_street - a conversation we had
a year ago:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2016-December/thread.html#77191

Mappers from more developed countries expect a residential street to
look like their idea of a residential street - for example the lack
of sidewalks confuses them... But it is a residential road nevertheless.

I'm partial to always using surface=* but maybe sidewalk=no will also
help make confused residential mappers happier with tagging a six-meter
wide sandy residential street with no sidewalk as
highway=residential... (I just wrote that and realize I wrote almost
the same thing last year... I'm getting old
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2016-December/077195.html)

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