How to tag Seveso sites ?

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How to tag Seveso sites ?

OSMDoudou

Hello,

 

I was wondering how to tag Seveso sites. [1]

 

I found a page in French language on the wiki which indirectly mentions the possibility to tag "seuilːFRːDREAL=haut/bas" (with tag and value in French language). [2]

 

Taginfo shows it's indeed in use, but only in France. [3]

 

I see an interest to tag these sites as there are many of them and the information of public interest.

 

But I barely find some site tagged in practice, so I wonder if I’m missing something or if I’m not looking in the right tags.

 

Any suggestion what tagging scheme to use ?

 

Thank you.

 

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2012/18/EU

[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/Liste_des_références_nationales

[3] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.fr/keys/seuil%3AFR%3ADREAL#values


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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Joseph Eisenberg
What is a Seveso site? The link to the directive on Wikipedia says:

European Union directive aimed at controlling major chemical accident hazards. Seveso III is implemented in national legislation and is enforced by national chemical safety authorities.”

Are these chemical hazard sites? Inspection sites? 

-Joseph

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 5:42 PM OSMDoudou <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

 

I was wondering how to tag Seveso sites. [1]

 

I found a page in French language on the wiki which indirectly mentions the possibility to tag "seuilːFRːDREAL=haut/bas" (with tag and value in French language). [2]

 

Taginfo shows it's indeed in use, but only in France. [3]

 

I see an interest to tag these sites as there are many of them and the information of public interest.

 

But I barely find some site tagged in practice, so I wonder if I’m missing something or if I’m not looking in the right tags.

 

Any suggestion what tagging scheme to use ?

 

Thank you.

 

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2012/18/EU

[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/Liste_des_références_nationales

[3] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.fr/keys/seuil%3AFR%3ADREAL#values

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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Shawn K. Quinn
On 11/8/19 03:34, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> What is a Seveso site? The link to the directive on Wikipedia says:
>
> “a European Union
> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union> directive
> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_(European_Union)> aimed at
> controlling major chemical accident hazards. Seveso III is implemented
> in national legislation and is enforced by national chemical safety
> authorities.”
>
> Are these chemical hazard sites? Inspection sites? 

My first guess is it's at least roughly analogous to a Superfund site in
the US.

--
Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]>
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Lionel Giard
Seveso sites are all sites identified as source for a "potential major industrial hazard" (mainly big chemical plant - and it doesn't include the military or nuclear facilities). It is named after the Seveso disaster of 1976 (Seveso is a town in Italy) which had a big media coverage and important impact on health in the area (many animals were slaughtered, and many people affected). 

As far as i understand, the seveso directive is based on different threshold (the threshold depends on the chemical element, the stability of the product, ...). If it is below the first threshold, it is not a Seveso site (not at big risk), if it pass the first threshold it is "Low" (low risk) and if it pass the second threshold it is ranked as "High" (high risk).

Le ven. 8 nov. 2019 à 10:45, Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]> a écrit :
On 11/8/19 03:34, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> What is a Seveso site? The link to the directive on Wikipedia says:
>
> “a European Union
> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union> directive
> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_(European_Union)> aimed at
> controlling major chemical accident hazards. Seveso III is implemented
> in national legislation and is enforced by national chemical safety
> authorities.”
>
> Are these chemical hazard sites? Inspection sites? 

My first guess is it's at least roughly analogous to a Superfund site in
the US.

--
Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]>
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Shawn K. Quinn
On 08/11/2019 09:44, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
>
> My first guess is it's at least roughly analogous to a Superfund site in
> the US.

That's what I thought at first reading too, but perhaps its meant more
to describe somewhere where a disaster might happen rather than one
where one already has?

The local regulations in the UK for that are known as COMAH (see
https://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/ ).

I didn't use any specific COMAH tagging for my local site
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/334238388 , but would be happy to add
something if a consensus emerges.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

OSMDoudou
In reply to this post by Lionel Giard
Indeed. I'm not an expert, but it's a good summary.

Data about the classification is available and of public interest, so I'm wondering how to tag.


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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
How about as hazards?


It appears it was originally intended for road hazards but certainly comments on the pge re extending it to other hazardous situations.

Possibly mark a chemical plant (in addition to industrial site etc) something like:

hazard=chemical
"risk_level"=low/medium/high

Would that work?

Thanks

Graeme


On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 at 03:04, OSMDoudou <[hidden email]> wrote:
Indeed. I'm not an expert, but it's a good summary.

Data about the classification is available and of public interest, so I'm wondering how to tag

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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 8. Nov 2019, at 23:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> hazard=chemical
> "risk_level"=low/medium/high


what kind of risk is the risk_level addressing? “chemical” is very generic, may be fine for the first level but should get a more detailed subtag aside. Also we should maybe distinguish between sites with supposed contamination and those where certain substances have already been detected.

Cheers Martin
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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 at 09:21, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

what kind of risk is the risk_level addressing? “chemical” is very generic, may be fine for the first level but should get a more detailed subtag aside. Also we should maybe distinguish between sites with supposed contamination and those where certain substances have already been detected.

I've never heard of any of the 3 mentioned types of "hazardous" sites!, but from what has been said, Seveso & the other terms are used for sites that could potentially be hazardous, & the governing body has determined that "this spot" is potentially "very" dangerous, while these one's aren't so bad.

I'd suggest we run with the level of risk determined by the authorities?

I don't think that it's a thing that a mapper walking past the front gate is going to be able to say "Aha, this is a Soveso Class 1 plant"! (Unless, of course, it's signposted that way, & I'd sort of doubt that!)

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

OSMDoudou
In reply to this post by OSMDoudou
The case at hand here is a norm to characterize a hazard, not the result of a past incident.

In fact, I don't mind if the tags are not detailed.

I was thinking to reflect the classification scheme in place.

A bit like the stars for hotels. If it's a 4 star hotel, we don't tag all the details of the norm, but we refer to it instead.



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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by OSMDoudou
Agreed. I just responded something similar.

Question is now how to tag properly.

I don't expect a tag called "seveso".

I would use a tag that mentions the norm in a way or another, but I'm not sure how to best do it.


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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Warin
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 09/11/19 10:20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 8. Nov 2019, at 23:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> hazard=chemical
>> "risk_level"=low/medium/high
>
> what kind of risk is the risk_level addressing? “chemical” is very generic, may be fine for the first level but should get a more detailed subtag aside. Also we should maybe distinguish between sites with supposed contamination and those where certain substances have already been detected.

These sites pose a potential to pollute .. air, water or ground.
This particular value is not indicating present contamination, or possible present contamination.



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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Jan Michel
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
On 08.11.19 11:15, Lionel Giard wrote:
 > Seveso sites are all sites identified as source for a "potential major
 > industrial hazard"

On 08/11/2019 09:44, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
 > My first guess is it's at least roughly analogous to a Superfund site
 > in the US.

On 08.11.19 12:11, Andy Townsend wrote:
> The local regulations in the UK for that are known as COMAH (see  > https://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/ ).

This seems like there are varying definitions in different countries,
but all aim at basically the same thing - potential hazards to the
environment. How about this scheme?

hazard_class = comah:XYZ
hazard_class = seveso:XYZ


It establishes a common top-level tag and country specific / system
specific values. This is analogous to e.g. zone:traffic and
zone:maxspeed used on roads. The 'XYZ' values depend on the
classification given by the respective scheme.

We could think about adding the country code to the key (like
hazard_class:US, hazard_class=UK) to separate countries from each other,
but this doesn't seem necessary.

I wouldn't recommend to add the scheme to the key (as in
hazard_class:soveso), because this tends to create quite messy tags that
are difficult to use.


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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Andy Townsend
On 10/11/2019 09:53, Jan Michel wrote:
> This seems like there are varying definitions in different countries,
> but all aim at basically the same thing - potential hazards to the
> environment. How about this scheme?
>
> hazard_class = comah:XYZ
> hazard_class = seveso:XYZ
>
For completeness the UK appears to have to classes - "upper tier" and
"lower tier" - see http://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/comah-establishments.htm 
, and that's determined based "on the quantity of dangerous substances
they hold" (already noted elsewhere in the thread as relevant).

Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

dieterdreist
While I first was assuming this would comprise inactive but contaminated sites, I now see this is for operational sites only, which are dealing with chemical substances of which release into the environment could potentially pose a hazard to the people living nearby. Right?

How would we survey this? There is not much that can be surveyed worse ;-)
You would have to ask the operator of the site which are the substances they are dealing with (and they would not have to answer you, nor would it seem that if they answered their reply would be very reliable), then you would have to have the knowledge to understand their reply and to evaluate it, probably very few of us are in this position. So the only “reliable” source would be information collected, assessed and  released by the government. High risk could mean the substances are very dangerous, or a potential accident could release a lot of them, or it could mean the operations are executed in a way that an accident is more likely than it ideally should be, for example, if there wasn’t sufficient maintenance for a longer period of time, if the safety measurements aren’t the best/most recent available, problems in critical safety components have already been found, etc.

Am I guessing correctly that this is about kind and quantity of substances that are dealt with?
The other possibly relevant information (for risk assessment) is likely not publicly available.

What is the benefit of having this information in OpenStreetMap? There is nothing the crowd could contribute to improve this data, we would be a mere distribution service of government data, and we would be at least as out of date as they are (because the process of verifying and inserting the data takes so time, as does the insertion in OpenStreetMap).

If we still would decide to import this kind of assessment results, I would suggest to use keys which make it clear which criterion/system has been used (i.e. use specific keys for each source). While it may look similar on paper to a layman, it may be very different systems, or different practice of assigning risks even with the exact same system (but there’s no doubt that the actual systems/schemes are different).

Cheers Martin
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Re: How to tag Seveso sites ?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
10 Nov 2019, 22:44 by [hidden email]:
What is the benefit of having this information in OpenStreetMap? There is nothing the crowd could contribute to improve this data, we would be a mere distribution service of government data, and we would be at least as out of date as they are (because the process of verifying and inserting the data takes so time, as does the insertion in OpenStreetMap).
+1this seems to be read-only data, what is pointless at best

Maybe instead add id / ref in this external database? Or wikidata tag and import ids/refs
into Wikidata?

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