How to tag pedestrian lanes?

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How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Markus-5
Hello everyone

I have a disagreement with another mapper (changeset comments in
German [1]) regarding the mapping of pedestrian lanes, i.e. lanes on a
roadway reserved for pedestrians (example [2]), and would like to hear
more opinions.

[1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/75900746
[2]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pedestrian_lane.jpg

The other mapper thinks that pedestrian lanes should be tagged like
sidewalks (pavements), because sidewalk=* or footway=sidewalk just
means a footpath along a road, and that the absence of a kerb can be
tagged [sidewalk:<right/left>:]kerb=no.

However i think that a sidewalk requires a physical separation to the
roadway (usually a kerb). While a sidewalk provides some safety for
pedestrians, a pedestrian lanes does not. In order that data consumers
know that it may be less safe for pedestrians to use a road with a
pedestrian lane compared to a road with a sidewalk, i think it is
important to tag pedestrian lanes differently. (The tag i used was
pedestrian_lane=<left/right/both>). Besides, the distinction between
physical separation or road markings is already made for cycleways: if
there is a physical separation we tag it cycleway=track, if there are
only road markings cycleway=lane. So it only seems logical to also
make the same distinction for sidewalks and pedestrian lanes.

Thank you in advance for your replies.

Best regards and have a nice Sunday,

Markus

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

On 19. Oct 2019, at 21:48, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:

The tag i used was
pedestrian_lane=<left/right/both>


+1, or e.g. sidewalk:right=lane
there are a few instances tagged like this: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sidewalk%3Aright=lane

Cheers Martin 

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Markus-5


On Oct 20, 2019, at 4:44 AM, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:

However i think that a sidewalk requires a physical separation to the
roadway


I agree with you, and I tag all separated standard sidewalks as “sidewalks” (iD preset).

however, there are a lot of narrow roads in Japan where the side of the road (between the white lane border line and the barrier wall along the road) is painted with a (thin) green stripe, and is considered a pedestrian path - usually around schools where children walk. The infrastructure in the area is very old, and they cannot widen the roads to be safer, so they paint the green line on to remind drivers to be safe and keep the pedestrians on one side. this is only around schools with narrow roads. New roads all have separated sidewalks, so no painted area is necessary. 

I tag the green line as a highway=path and add a note=* to the way. 

One example I have seen is much larger, and is a new “lane” created by converting a 2-way road to 1-way and giving the margin to pedestrians. 

I do not think this is ideal, but it does properly map the marking and the routing that should be used for pedestrians. usually many roads in the area are narrow, and the designated way is best. 

If some method is standardized, I will correct my mapping. 

Note: these are not the blue cycle-lanes or cycle arrows in the road found on many narrow high traffic roads. 


Javbw

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Markus-5
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 at 23:02, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> +1, or e.g. sidewalk:right=lane
> there are a few instances tagged like this: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sidewalk%3Aright=lane

18 out of 30 are additionally tagged sidewalk=right. I think it's
better to keep "sidewalk" out, otherwise it gets too confusing.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 08:41, John Willis via Tagging
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I tag the green line as a highway=path and add a note=* to the way.
>
> One example I have seen is much larger, and is a new “lane” created by converting a 2-way road to 1-way and giving the margin to pedestrians.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/667338935.

Mapping a lane as a separate way isn't ideal, because this separates
the lane from the rest of the roadway, leading to routing problems:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_foot&route=36.40695%2C139.33347%3B36.40655%2C139.33423

Cheers

Markus

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Georg Feddern-2
Am 20.10.2019 um 11:24 schrieb Markus:
> On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 at 23:02, Martin Koppenhoefer
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> +1, or e.g. sidewalk:right=lane
>> there are a few instances tagged like this: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sidewalk%3Aright=lane
> 18 out of 30 are additionally tagged sidewalk=right. I think it's
> better to keep "sidewalk" out, otherwise it gets too confusing.

Why not in analogy to cycleway=track|lane|...
sidewalk=track|lane|...
sidewalk=yes (as synonym for kerb) was thought too short ... again.

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Tobias Zwick
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
I have seen this kind of sidewalk that is just a marked lane in Germany as well, usually as part of parking lots or larger company grounds.

How about:

sidewalk=right
sidewalk:right:kerb=no
sidewalk:right:surface=asphalt

The most important thing is to tag whether there is a sidewalk or not. Regardless of whether it has a keen or not.

According to taginfo, sidewalk:right:kerb is already used a few times:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk%3Aright%3Akerb#overview

Tobias

On October 20, 2019 8:39:14 AM GMT+02:00, John Willis via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>> On Oct 20, 2019, at 4:44 AM, Markus <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> However i think that a sidewalk requires a physical separation to the
>> roadway
>
>
>I agree with you, and I tag all separated standard sidewalks as
>“sidewalks” (iD preset).
>
>however, there are a lot of narrow roads in Japan where the side of the
>road (between the white lane border line and the barrier wall along the
>road) is painted with a (thin) green stripe, and is considered a
>pedestrian path - usually around schools where children walk. The
>infrastructure in the area is very old, and they cannot widen the roads
>to be safer, so they paint the green line on to remind drivers to be
>safe and keep the pedestrians on one side. this is only around schools
>with narrow roads. New roads all have separated sidewalks, so no
>painted area is necessary.
>
>I tag the green line as a highway=path and add a note=* to the way.
>
>One example I have seen is much larger, and is a new “lane” created by
>converting a 2-way road to 1-way and giving the margin to pedestrians.
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/667338935
><https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/667338935>.
>
>I do not think this is ideal, but it does properly map the marking and
>the routing that should be used for pedestrians. usually many roads in
>the area are narrow, and the designated way is best.
>
>If some method is standardized, I will correct my mapping.
>
>Note: these are not the blue cycle-lanes or cycle arrows in the road
>found on many narrow high traffic roads.
>
>
>Javbw

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

voschix
We have a widely used scheme for tagging cycle lanes/paths on the road way:
cycleway=lane|track with variants.
Extrapolating from that for the pedestrian "lane" seems obvious to me:
sidewalk=lane (plus variants).
For separate sidewalks there is
sidewalk=yes (plus variants) 

Why invent something different?

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019, 12:42 Tobias Zwick, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have seen this kind of sidewalk that is just a marked lane in Germany as well, usually as part of parking lots or larger company grounds.

How about:

sidewalk=right
sidewalk:right:kerb=no
sidewalk:right:surface=asphalt

The most important thing is to tag whether there is a sidewalk or not. Regardless of whether it has a keen or not.

According to taginfo, sidewalk:right:kerb is already used a few times:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk%3Aright%3Akerb#overview

Tobias

On October 20, 2019 8:39:14 AM GMT+02:00, John Willis via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> On Oct 20, 2019, at 4:44 AM, Markus <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> However i think that a sidewalk requires a physical separation to the
>> roadway
>
>
>I agree with you, and I tag all separated standard sidewalks as
>“sidewalks” (iD preset).
>
>however, there are a lot of narrow roads in Japan where the side of the
>road (between the white lane border line and the barrier wall along the
>road) is painted with a (thin) green stripe, and is considered a
>pedestrian path - usually around schools where children walk. The
>infrastructure in the area is very old, and they cannot widen the roads
>to be safer, so they paint the green line on to remind drivers to be
>safe and keep the pedestrians on one side. this is only around schools
>with narrow roads. New roads all have separated sidewalks, so no
>painted area is necessary.
>
>I tag the green line as a highway=path and add a note=* to the way.
>
>One example I have seen is much larger, and is a new “lane” created by
>converting a 2-way road to 1-way and giving the margin to pedestrians.
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/667338935
><https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/667338935>.
>
>I do not think this is ideal, but it does properly map the marking and
>the routing that should be used for pedestrians. usually many roads in
>the area are narrow, and the designated way is best.
>
>If some method is standardized, I will correct my mapping.
>
>Note: these are not the blue cycle-lanes or cycle arrows in the road
>found on many narrow high traffic roads.
>
>
>Javbw

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Markus-5
In reply to this post by Tobias Zwick
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 12:42, Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> How about:
>
> sidewalk=right
> sidewalk:right:kerb=no

I dislike using these tags for pedestrian lanes for the following
reasons (sorry if i repeat myself):

  * It doesn't make sense: if it doesn't have a kerb (or any other
physical barrier) it isn't a sidewalk.

  * Blind people are able to make out a sidewalk, but not a pedestrian lane.

  * It's misleading: Data users may not know the tag
sidewalk:right:kerb=no and thus may make wrong assumptions. For
example, a navigation application may guide a pedestrian along a route
with only pedestrian lanes instead of safer route with sidewalks.

  * pedestrian_lane=<left/right/both> is simpler for mappers and data users.

  * The distinction between physical separation or road markings is
already made for cycleways.

As sidewalk:right:kerb=no sidewalk:left:kerb=no has only been used 4
and 9 times respectively, almost no retagging were required.

> The most important thing is to tag whether there is a sidewalk or not. Regardless of whether it has a keen [kerb] or not.

I disagree: as already written, a sidewalk offers some safety for
pedestrians because of the kerb, while a pedestrian lane doesn't.

Regards

Markus

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Markus-5
In reply to this post by voschix
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 12:24, Georg Feddern <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Why not in analogy to cycleway=track|lane|...
> sidewalk=track|lane|...

This would require a huge amount of retagging. (There are currently
over 1.5 millions uses of sidewalk=*.)

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 19:11, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We have a widely used scheme for tagging cycle lanes/paths on the road way:
> cycleway=lane|track with variants.
> Extrapolating from that for the pedestrian "lane" seems obvious to me:
> sidewalk=lane (plus variants).
> For separate sidewalks there is
> sidewalk=yes (plus variants)
>
> Why invent something different?

"yes" isn't the only value of sidewalk=*, there's also "right",
"left", "both", "no" (plus "none") and "separate". [1] This isn't
compatible with sidewalk=lane.

Why not inventing something different for a different feature? :)

[1]: As well as some less useful values like "this" (156 uses!?),
"bad", "both;right", "right;none", "10" or "forest". :D

Markus

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Jan Michel
In reply to this post by Tobias Zwick
On 20.10.19 12:40, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> I have seen this kind of sidewalk that is just a marked lane in Germany as well, usually as part of parking lots or larger company grounds.
>
> How about:
>
> sidewalk=right
> sidewalk:right:kerb=no
> sidewalk:right:surface=asphalt

I also prefer this kind of tagging. I don't see a reason to invent a
fully new tag for this - it is an area meant just for pedestrians just
like a sidewalk. In this way, it's fully backwards compatible, only
additional information is added by the tag mentioning the kerb.

For me, a kerb is not a necessary feature of a sidewalk, e.g. here
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Hx17IpF-pZWl6AakpYUc2g
There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a
sidewalk.

On 19.10.19 21:44, Markus wrote:
 > While a sidewalk provides some safety for
 > pedestrians, a pedestrian lanes does not.

I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a
pedestrian.


On 19.10.19 23:01, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> or e.g.sidewalk:right=lane

That would be an option, very much alike the tagging for cycleways - but
this is a tag that needs to be clearly defined and worked into all the
existing tools that make use of sidewalks in one way or the other.



Jan


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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Markus-5
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 19:52, Jan Michel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I also prefer this kind of tagging. I don't see a reason to invent a
> fully new tag for this - it is an area meant just for pedestrians just
> like a sidewalk. [...]

I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in Switzerland vehicles are
allowed to drive on the pedestrian lane as long as pedestrians aren't
impeded. However, they aren't allowed to drive on sidewalks. (Aside
from the fact that it's not really possible.) Therefore, "an area
meant just for pedestrians just like a sidewalk" isn't true here.

> For me, a kerb is not a necessary feature of a sidewalk, e.g. here
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Hx17IpF-pZWl6AakpYUc2g
> There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a
> sidewalk.

I wouldn't call that a sidewalk and thus wouldn't tag it sidewalk=*.

> I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a
> pedestrian.

Not much, but luckily most kerbs (at least those i came across) are
much higher (usually 10 cm and more). They are only lowered at
pedestrian crossings or at driveways. Cars and buses sometimes
accidentally touch kerbs while driving (on narrow roads) and then get
thrown in the other direction. So i'd say that they definitely provide
some safety to pedestrians.

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Clifford Snow
I'm not familiar with the laws of the country the picture [1] listed in the first post on this thread, but the diagonal yellow lines look to me like a don't park here rather than a sidewalk. Even the one pedestrian in the picture isn't walking the diagonal yellow lines. Can someone confirm that those yellow lines indicate a pedestrian way?

The second concern I'd like to raise is the two not exactly compatible methods we have for mapping sidewalks. In the original method, sidewalks were mapped as attributes of streets. If the goal is to map sidewalks as an attribute of streets, then yes mapping them as a Marcus proposes, pedestrian_lane=<left/right/both or as Martin points out, sidewalk:right=lane would be appropriate.

However, since the introduction of mapping sidewalks as separate ways was introduced, shared use with a street will require thinking about not only how to tag, but also how the geometry is connected. The purpose of mapping sidewalks as separate ways is to allow pedestrian routing. If pedestrians share the street how should they be mapped. I'd probably show the sidewalk connecting to the street to the shared section. The connection would include kerb ramps and tactile pads that exist. I'd like to add that I don't see a civil engineer ever designing such an unsafe arrangement, but then, my city is just now starting to fix all of their crappy kerb cuts that they installed a decade or so before. I should add, I've switched over to mapping sidewalks as separate ways, after tagging all of the streets with sidewalk=left/right/both :-)

Best,
Clifford


On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 11:52 AM Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 19:52, Jan Michel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I also prefer this kind of tagging. I don't see a reason to invent a
> fully new tag for this - it is an area meant just for pedestrians just
> like a sidewalk. [...]

I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in Switzerland vehicles are
allowed to drive on the pedestrian lane as long as pedestrians aren't
impeded. However, they aren't allowed to drive on sidewalks. (Aside
from the fact that it's not really possible.) Therefore, "an area
meant just for pedestrians just like a sidewalk" isn't true here.

> For me, a kerb is not a necessary feature of a sidewalk, e.g. here
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Hx17IpF-pZWl6AakpYUc2g
> There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a
> sidewalk.

I wouldn't call that a sidewalk and thus wouldn't tag it sidewalk=*.

> I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a
> pedestrian.

Not much, but luckily most kerbs (at least those i came across) are
much higher (usually 10 cm and more). They are only lowered at
pedestrian crossings or at driveways. Cars and buses sometimes
accidentally touch kerbs while driving (on narrow roads) and then get
thrown in the other direction. So i'd say that they definitely provide
some safety to pedestrians.

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

voschix
I think in bicycle-OSM we have kind of an tacitly agreed approach: bicycle lanes (divided from motorised traffic by a painted line) are generally mapped on the road way whereas separate parallel cycleways are tagged either on the road way or as separate way, with the former often being the first, fast mapping and the latter being considered the more advanced mapping. 

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019, 23:24 Clifford Snow, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm not familiar with the laws of the country the picture [1] listed in the first post on this thread, but the diagonal yellow lines look to me like a don't park here rather than a sidewalk. Even the one pedestrian in the picture isn't walking the diagonal yellow lines. Can someone confirm that those yellow lines indicate a pedestrian way?

The second concern I'd like to raise is the two not exactly compatible methods we have for mapping sidewalks. In the original method, sidewalks were mapped as attributes of streets. If the goal is to map sidewalks as an attribute of streets, then yes mapping them as a Marcus proposes, pedestrian_lane=<left/right/both or as Martin points out, sidewalk:right=lane would be appropriate.

However, since the introduction of mapping sidewalks as separate ways was introduced, shared use with a street will require thinking about not only how to tag, but also how the geometry is connected. The purpose of mapping sidewalks as separate ways is to allow pedestrian routing. If pedestrians share the street how should they be mapped. I'd probably show the sidewalk connecting to the street to the shared section. The connection would include kerb ramps and tactile pads that exist. I'd like to add that I don't see a civil engineer ever designing such an unsafe arrangement, but then, my city is just now starting to fix all of their crappy kerb cuts that they installed a decade or so before. I should add, I've switched over to mapping sidewalks as separate ways, after tagging all of the streets with sidewalk=left/right/both :-)

Best,
Clifford


On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 11:52 AM Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 19:52, Jan Michel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I also prefer this kind of tagging. I don't see a reason to invent a
> fully new tag for this - it is an area meant just for pedestrians just
> like a sidewalk. [...]

I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in Switzerland vehicles are
allowed to drive on the pedestrian lane as long as pedestrians aren't
impeded. However, they aren't allowed to drive on sidewalks. (Aside
from the fact that it's not really possible.) Therefore, "an area
meant just for pedestrians just like a sidewalk" isn't true here.

> For me, a kerb is not a necessary feature of a sidewalk, e.g. here
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Hx17IpF-pZWl6AakpYUc2g
> There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a
> sidewalk.

I wouldn't call that a sidewalk and thus wouldn't tag it sidewalk=*.

> I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a
> pedestrian.

Not much, but luckily most kerbs (at least those i came across) are
much higher (usually 10 cm and more). They are only lowered at
pedestrian crossings or at driveways. Cars and buses sometimes
accidentally touch kerbs while driving (on narrow roads) and then get
thrown in the other direction. So i'd say that they definitely provide
some safety to pedestrians.

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Markus-5


On Oct 21, 2019, at 2:08 AM, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:

 * It doesn't make sense: if it doesn't have a kerb (or any other
physical barrier) it isn't a sidewalk.

This is the most important information. 

it should be tagged as a “footway lane” or “pedestrian lane” or similar. 


Javbw

a "sidewalk lane” implies a regular kerb separated sidewalk. 

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Georg Feddern-2
In reply to this post by Clifford Snow
Am 20.10.2019 um 23:23 schrieb Clifford Snow:
> I'm not familiar with the laws of the country the picture [1] listed
> in the first post on this thread, but the diagonal yellow lines look
> to me like a don't park here rather than a sidewalk. Even the one
> pedestrian in the picture isn't walking the diagonal yellow lines. Can
> someone confirm that those yellow lines indicate a pedestrian way?

FYI:
https://www.bfu.ch/de/Documents/03_Fuer_Fachpersonen/05_Verkehrstechnik/Empfehlungen/bfu-Grundlagen/Laengsstreifen%20fuer%20Fussgaenger.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Switzerland_and_Liechtenstein 
at 6.19

Regards
Georg

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Jan Michel
+1 to this tagging scheme.

I strongly prefer new tags for additional
detail over new incompatible ones.

20 Oct 2019, 19:49 by [hidden email]:
On 20.10.19 12:40, Tobias Zwick wrote:
I have seen this kind of sidewalk that is just a marked lane in Germany as well, usually as part of parking lots or larger company grounds.

How about:

sidewalk=right
sidewalk:right:kerb=no
sidewalk:right:surface=asphalt

I also prefer this kind of tagging. I don't see a reason to invent a fully new tag for this - it is an area meant just for pedestrians just like a sidewalk. In this way, it's fully backwards compatible, only additional information is added by the tag mentioning the kerb.

For me, a kerb is not a necessary feature of a sidewalk, e.g. here
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Hx17IpF-pZWl6AakpYUc2g
There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a sidewalk.

On 19.10.19 21:44, Markus wrote:
While a sidewalk provides some safety for
pedestrians, a pedestrian lanes does not.

I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a pedestrian.


On 19.10.19 23:01, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
or e.g.sidewalk:right=lane

That would be an option, very much alike the tagging for cycleways - but this is a tag that needs to be clearly defined and worked into all the existing tools that make use of sidewalks in one way or the other.



Jan


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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Markus-5
20 Oct 2019, 19:08 by [hidden email]:
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 12:42, Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]> wrote:

How about:

sidewalk=right
sidewalk:right:kerb=no

I dislike using these tags for pedestrian lanes for the following
reasons (sorry if i repeat myself):

* It doesn't make sense: if it doesn't have a kerb (or any other
physical barrier) it isn't a sidewalk.
I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
of British English.

Are you maybe one?

(Sorry for poor phrasing here,
I tried to make it less aggressive and failed)
* Blind people are able to make out a sidewalk, but not a pedestrian lane.
No one argues against tagging this info.
We only disagree how it should be tagged.
* It's misleading: Data users may not know the tag
sidewalk:right:kerb=no and thus may make wrong assumptions. For
example, a navigation application may guide a pedestrian along a route
with only pedestrian lanes instead of safer route with sidewalks.
And with a new incompatible tag
routing software may guide along
road without even such lane, instead of
using route where at least pedestrian
lanes are present.

In both cases routing software would
benefit from an upgrade.

* pedestrian_lane=<left/right/both> is simpler for mappers and data users.
Depends on whatever you consider
it as a low quality sidewalk or
a separate feature.

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 21. Oct 2019, at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
> of British English.


while I am not, I’m pretty sure the British term is pavement, not sidewalk (for the kerb separated way, no idea about the marking separated way)

We had deliberately chosen the word sidewalk for OpenStreetMap tagging because of the ambiguity of ”pavement “

Cheers Martin
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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Joseph Eisenberg
“Sidewalk” is North American English, but it’s used because the
British term is “pavement”, which is confusing due to its dual
meaning. As a North American I would expect it to be separated from
the road by a curb (kerb) or a strip of grass.

Oxford dictionaries definition, Pavement:
"1. British A raised paved or asphalted path for pedestrians at the
side of a road.
- ‘he fell and hit his head on the pavement’
- North American term:   sidewalk"
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pavement

Wikipedia claims:
"... normally separated from the vehicular section by a curb. There
may also be a median strip or road verge (a strip of vegetation..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk

These definitions fit my impression, as an American, that a "sidewalk"
is a separate feature, not part of the same paved road surface as the
main lanes of the highway.

If there's just a painted line, we would normally call the space
between the line and the edge of the asphalt "the shoulder" of the
road in a rural area, or it can also be a "bike lane" if it's wide
enough and there are certain markings.

So I'm in favor of a new key like pedestrian_lane=right/left/both,
rather than calling these a type of sidewalk

- Joseph Eisenberg

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 3:51 PM Mateusz Konieczny
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> 20 Oct 2019, 19:08 by [hidden email]:
>>
>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 12:42, Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> How about:
>>>
>>> sidewalk=right
>>> sidewalk:right:kerb=no
>>
>>
>> I dislike using these tags for pedestrian lanes for the following
>> reasons (sorry if i repeat myself):
>>
>> * It doesn't make sense: if it doesn't have a kerb (or any other
>> physical barrier) it isn't a sidewalk.
>
> I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
> of British English.
>
> Are you maybe one?
>
> (Sorry for poor phrasing here,
> I tried to make it less aggressive and failed)
>>
>> * Blind people are able to make out a sidewalk, but not a pedestrian lane.
>
> No one argues against tagging this info.
> We only disagree how it should be tagged.
>>
>> * It's misleading: Data users may not know the tag
>> sidewalk:right:kerb=no and thus may make wrong assumptions. For
>> example, a navigation application may guide a pedestrian along a route
>> with only pedestrian lanes instead of safer route with sidewalks.
>
> And with a new incompatible tag
> routing software may guide along
> road without even such lane, instead of
> using route where at least pedestrian
> lanes are present.
>
> In both cases routing software would
> benefit from an upgrade.
>>
>>
>> * pedestrian_lane=<left/right/both> is simpler for mappers and data users.
>
> Depends on whatever you consider
> it as a low quality sidewalk or
> a separate feature.
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


On 10/21/19, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 21. Oct 2019, at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
>> of British English.
>
>
> while I am not, I’m pretty sure the British term is pavement, not sidewalk
> (for the kerb separated way, no idea about the marking separated way)
>
> We had deliberately chosen the word sidewalk for OpenStreetMap tagging
> because of the ambiguity of ”pavement “
>
> Cheers Martin
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: How to tag pedestrian lanes?

Tobias Zwick
Shoulders are a common feature on many roads. And the tagging for this is already established. Maybe a different way to tag kerb-less sidewalks thus would then be

shoulder=right
shoulder:right:access=foot
(or access no and ...:foot=designated?)
shoulder:right:width=1

Though, in regards of software support,  I  my earlier suggestion is better, as no modification on existing software is necessary to understand that a sidewalk without kerb is still for pedestrians and used the same as a sidewalk, regardless of whether in (Oxford) English, one may or may not call this thing "sidewalk".

 (Existing) software will treat shoulders primarily as a feature relevant for cars.

Tobias

On October 21, 2019 9:40:03 AM GMT+02:00, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

>“Sidewalk” is North American English, but it’s used because the
>British term is “pavement”, which is confusing due to its dual
>meaning. As a North American I would expect it to be separated from
>the road by a curb (kerb) or a strip of grass.
>
>Oxford dictionaries definition, Pavement:
>"1. British A raised paved or asphalted path for pedestrians at the
>side of a road.
>- ‘he fell and hit his head on the pavement’
>- North American term:   sidewalk"
>https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pavement
>
>Wikipedia claims:
>"... normally separated from the vehicular section by a curb. There
>may also be a median strip or road verge (a strip of vegetation..."
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk
>
>These definitions fit my impression, as an American, that a "sidewalk"
>is a separate feature, not part of the same paved road surface as the
>main lanes of the highway.
>
>If there's just a painted line, we would normally call the space
>between the line and the edge of the asphalt "the shoulder" of the
>road in a rural area, or it can also be a "bike lane" if it's wide
>enough and there are certain markings.
>
>So I'm in favor of a new key like pedestrian_lane=right/left/both,
>rather than calling these a type of sidewalk
>
>- Joseph Eisenberg
>
>On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 3:51 PM Mateusz Konieczny
><[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> 20 Oct 2019, 19:08 by [hidden email]:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 12:42, Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How about:
>>>>
>>>> sidewalk=right
>>>> sidewalk:right:kerb=no
>>>
>>>
>>> I dislike using these tags for pedestrian lanes for the following
>>> reasons (sorry if i repeat myself):
>>>
>>> * It doesn't make sense: if it doesn't have a kerb (or any other
>>> physical barrier) it isn't a sidewalk.
>>
>> I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
>> of British English.
>>
>> Are you maybe one?
>>
>> (Sorry for poor phrasing here,
>> I tried to make it less aggressive and failed)
>>>
>>> * Blind people are able to make out a sidewalk, but not a pedestrian
>lane.
>>
>> No one argues against tagging this info.
>> We only disagree how it should be tagged.
>>>
>>> * It's misleading: Data users may not know the tag
>>> sidewalk:right:kerb=no and thus may make wrong assumptions. For
>>> example, a navigation application may guide a pedestrian along a
>route
>>> with only pedestrian lanes instead of safer route with sidewalks.
>>
>> And with a new incompatible tag
>> routing software may guide along
>> road without even such lane, instead of
>> using route where at least pedestrian
>> lanes are present.
>>
>> In both cases routing software would
>> benefit from an upgrade.
>>>
>>>
>>> * pedestrian_lane=<left/right/both> is simpler for mappers and data
>users.
>>
>> Depends on whatever you consider
>> it as a low quality sidewalk or
>> a separate feature.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>On 10/21/19, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 21. Oct 2019, at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny
><[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
>>> of British English.
>>
>>
>> while I am not, I’m pretty sure the British term is pavement, not
>sidewalk
>> (for the kerb separated way, no idea about the marking separated way)
>>
>> We had deliberately chosen the word sidewalk for OpenStreetMap
>tagging
>> because of the ambiguity of ”pavement “
>>
>> Cheers Martin
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tagging mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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