How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

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How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Michał Brzozowski
Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day. Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.

This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing better thus forming their own judgement.

How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky - how we would define it?

Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)

Michał

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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Tobias Zwick
So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:

> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Michał Brzozowski
Certainly not:
- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
- one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries

These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.

That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.

Michał

17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Imre Samu
>  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers & forget & go to the next house    ( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed gratification  )
- sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers 

> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.

imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community. 

Imre

 



2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski <[hidden email]>:
Certainly not:
- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
- one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries

These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.

That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.

Michał

17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Michał Brzozowski
Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.

I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.

I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best practice in short form in changeset comments.

Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't backfire ;)

17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers & forget & go to the next house    ( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed gratification  )
- sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers 


> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.

imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community. 

Imre

 



2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski <[hidden email]>:
Certainly not:
- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
- one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries

These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.

That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.

Michał

17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Wiklund Johan

I would think that similar map changes (for example, only buildings) in a contiguous geographical region would be an «optimal» mapping style for easy reviewing. It could be a “tip” in the iD tutorial.

 

 

From: Michał Brzozowski [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: onsdag 17. januar 2018 16.14
To: Imre Samu <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

 

Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.

 

I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.

 

I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best practice in short form in changeset comments.

 

Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't backfire ;)

 

17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

>  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers & forget & go to the next house    ( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed gratification  )
- sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers 

 

> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.


imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community. 

Imre

 

 

2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski <[hidden email]>:

Certainly not:

- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

- one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries

 

These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.

 

That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.

 

Michał

 

17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Michał Brzozowski
A lot of new mappers come through HOT and one problem I see is the same building mapped twice.  The HOT tile system releases the lock after two hours on the tile.  If mappers uploaded every fifteen minutes there would be fewer double mappings.

An optimal change set size is difficult to define in simple terms.

Cheerio John

On 17 Jan 2018 10:17 am, "Michał Brzozowski" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.

I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.

I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best practice in short form in changeset comments.

Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't backfire ;)

17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers & forget & go to the next house    ( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed gratification  )
- sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers 


> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.

imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community. 

Imre

 



2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski <[hidden email]>:
Certainly not:
- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
- one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries

These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.

That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.

Michał

17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

ebel
In reply to this post by Michał Brzozowski
On 17/01/18 15:13, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Certainly not:
> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

Couldn't this be done with the "upload" vs "new changeset" feature of
the OSM API? A technical solution. Multiple uploads in a single changeset?

Users want to save/upload frequently (because computers), so we'll never
stop them pressing the button often. Maybe iD could keep a changeset
open and an upload rather than open a new changeset? There would have to
be an option to "close current changeset and open a new one" (& close
current changeset), and to word that in a more friendly way for people
who don't know the terminology.

I don't think linking to documentation will solve this issue. Too many
users don't read things like that, no matter how much we'd want them to.

Yes, I know I'm suggesting a software change without offering a patch.

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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Mark Wagner
In reply to this post by Tobias Zwick
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:51:38 +0100
Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
>

For a novice?  One building, or a short stretch of road, or a small
park.  They'll almost always make mistakes, and small changesets let
you suggest better ways of doing things without overwhelming them with
"Square your corners, every object needs a tag, not just a name,
don't use descriptions for unnamed things, 'motorway' means an
interstate, not 'any road you can drive on', schools should be tagged
on the school grounds, not the individual buildings, 'living street' is
almost exclusively a European construct, 'oneway=no' is redundant on
almost all road types, and locally, Bing is the lowest-quality image
option -- use this one instead."

--
Mark

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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Tordanik
In reply to this post by ebel
On 17.01.2018 18:47, Rory McCann wrote:
> Users want to save/upload frequently (because computers), so we'll never
> stop them pressing the button often.

But we could give them more than one button.

There's "save", and then there's "upload/commit/publish". The two
actions are distinct, and part of the problem may be that online editors
tend to merge them into a single concept.

I'm also used to saving frequently, but because JOSM cleanly separates
save and upload, my habit doesn't get into the way of grouping my
changes into a cohesive changeset with a fitting description when I'm
finished.

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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Tobias Zwick
In reply to this post by ebel
This is how StreetComplete does it. Good thing is that the OSM server
automatically closes changesets where nothing was added after one hour,
so one does not need to worry that a changeset gets "stuck" if the user
exits the application without closing the changeset.

On 17/01/2018 18:47, Rory McCann wrote:

> On 17/01/18 15:13, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>> Certainly not:
>> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>
> Couldn't this be done with the "upload" vs "new changeset" feature of
> the OSM API? A technical solution. Multiple uploads in a single changeset?
>
> Users want to save/upload frequently (because computers), so we'll never
> stop them pressing the button often. Maybe iD could keep a changeset
> open and an upload rather than open a new changeset? There would have to
> be an option to "close current changeset and open a new one" (& close
> current changeset), and to word that in a more friendly way for people
> who don't know the terminology.
>
> I don't think linking to documentation will solve this issue. Too many
> users don't read things like that, no matter how much we'd want them to.
>
> Yes, I know I'm suggesting a software change without offering a patch.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Dave F
In reply to this post by Michał Brzozowski
This a purely an iD problem. It should be down to their core programmers to sort it out.
We should be encouraging users, especially newbies, to save frequently. Potlatch does this without the problem of numerous changesets.

DaveF

On 17/01/2018 13:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day. Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.

This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing better thus forming their own judgement.

How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky - how we would define it?

Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)

Michał


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

althio
I looked for similar issues and apparently it was already discussed,
considered back and forth and modified in iD.
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/703
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/1598
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2251#issuecomment-180469055

I don't know the effect of this recent modification
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/commit/437893ebb8b31e033e6544f0cc343725c4d6a0fd
but it might change a bit the behaviour of iD with open changesets.

-- althio


On 17 January 2018 at 22:26, Dave F <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This a purely an iD problem. It should be down to their core programmers to
> sort it out.
> We should be encouraging users, especially newbies, to save frequently.
> Potlatch does this without the problem of numerous changesets.
>
> DaveF
>
>
> On 17/01/2018 13:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day. Obviously
> this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in iD
> (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing better
> thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky - how
> we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good changeset
> comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

ewmjc
In reply to this post by Michał Brzozowski

Hi Micah,

I think you came up with a good answer to your conundrum in an earlier post in this thread: Don't explain what an optimal changeset IS, explain what it is NOT:

Something like:

"It helps other contributors understand your edits if you group what you are doing in a local area into one changeset. For example, if you are creating the outlines of 20 buildings, group them into one changeset. On the other hand, if you are adding 3 POIs, (points of interest),  that are 1000 km apart in different countries, then it is more useful to put them into 3 changesets.  Of course, if you are creating the outlines of 1,000 buildings in your town, you do not have to do them all at once!

If you worried about losing your data, our data editor software allows you to make incremental saves to the OSM server as you go along. iD does this automatically. Potlatch and JOSM have buttons that allow you to save partial work into a changeset and then keep adding to it until you are done."

[This could probably be improved for readability by non-native English speakers. And the editor text should be fact checked, I am a die-hard Potlatch user.]


Mike

(first post for a long, long time)


On 1/17/18 4:13 PM, Micah Brzozowski wrote:
Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.

I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.

I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best practice in short form in changeset comments.

Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't backfire ;)

17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers & forget & go to the next house    ( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed gratification  )
- sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers 


> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.

imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community. 

Imre

 



2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski <[hidden email]>:
Certainly not:
- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
- one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries

These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.

That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.

Michał

17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Gaurav Thapa
Hi Michael,
Could you tell me what buttons are used in JOSM for partial saves? Here in Nepal we frequently upload changes as internet is intermittent this feature would be greatly beneficial for us all.

Regards,
Gaurav

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Michael Collinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Micah,

I think you came up with a good answer to your conundrum in an earlier post in this thread: Don't explain what an optimal changeset IS, explain what it is NOT:

Something like:

"It helps other contributors understand your edits if you group what you are doing in a local area into one changeset. For example, if you are creating the outlines of 20 buildings, group them into one changeset. On the other hand, if you are adding 3 POIs, (points of interest),  that are 1000 km apart in different countries, then it is more useful to put them into 3 changesets.  Of course, if you are creating the outlines of 1,000 buildings in your town, you do not have to do them all at once!

If you worried about losing your data, our data editor software allows you to make incremental saves to the OSM server as you go along. iD does this automatically. Potlatch and JOSM have buttons that allow you to save partial work into a changeset and then keep adding to it until you are done."

[This could probably be improved for readability by non-native English speakers. And the editor text should be fact checked, I am a die-hard Potlatch user.]


Mike

(first post for a long, long time)


On 1/17/18 4:13 PM, Micah Brzozowski wrote:
Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.

I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.

I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best practice in short form in changeset comments.

Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't backfire ;)

17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers & forget & go to the next house    ( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed gratification  )
- sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers 


> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.

imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community. 

Imre

 



2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski <[hidden email]>:
Certainly not:
- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
- one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries

These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.

That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.

Michał

17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

althio

Hi Gaurav,

In the row of buttons, the first two are "Open" and "Save": these actions are for files locally on your computer.
Third and fourth buttons are "Download" and "Upload", commonly used to interact with OSM servers.

-- althio

On Jan 19, 2018 10:29 AM, "Gaurav Thapa" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
> Could you tell me what buttons are used in JOSM for partial saves? Here in Nepal we frequently upload changes as internet is intermittent this feature would be greatly beneficial for us all.
>
> Regards,
> Gaurav
>
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Michael Collinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Micah,
>>
>> I think you came up with a good answer to your conundrum in an earlier post in this thread: Don't explain what an optimal changeset IS, explain what it is NOT:
>>
>> Something like:
>>
>> "It helps other contributors understand your edits if you group what you are doing in a local area into one changeset. For example, if you are creating the outlines of 20 buildings, group them into one changeset. On the other hand, if you are adding 3 POIs, (points of interest),  that are 1000 km apart in different countries, then it is more useful to put them into 3 changesets.  Of course, if you are creating the outlines of 1,000 buildings in your town, you do not have to do them all at once!
>>
>> If you worried about losing your data, our data editor software allows you to make incremental saves to the OSM server as you go along. iD does this automatically. Potlatch and JOSM have buttons that allow you to save partial work into a changeset and then keep adding to it until you are done."
>>
>> [This could probably be improved for readability by non-native English speakers. And the editor text should be fact checked, I am a die-hard Potlatch user.]
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> (first post for a long, long time)
>>
>>
>> On 1/17/18 4:13 PM, Micah Brzozowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.
>>>
>>> I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.
>>>
>>> I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best practice in short form in changeset comments.
>>>
>>> Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't backfire ;)
>>>
>>> 17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>>>>
>>>> >  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>>>>
>>>> my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers & forget & go to the next house    ( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed gratification  )
>>>> - sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.
>>>>
>>>> imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community. 
>>>>
>>>> Imre
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Certainly not:
>>>>> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>>>>> - one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries
>>>>>
>>>>> These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michał
>>>>>
>>>>> 17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tobias
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>>>>>> > Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
>>>>>> > changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
>>>>>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
>>>>>> > tool you use.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
>>>>>> > iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
>>>>>> > better thus forming their own judgement.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
>>>>>> > how we would define it?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
>>>>>> > changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Michał
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > talk mailing list
>>>>>> > [hidden email]
>>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ talk mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gaurav Thapa
> Project Manager
> Secondary Cities Pokhara Project
> Kathmandu Living Labs
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Gaurav Thapa
Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S frequently in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for greater chance for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 2:59 AM, althio <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Gaurav,

In the row of buttons, the first two are "Open" and "Save": these actions are for files locally on your computer.
Third and fourth buttons are "Download" and "Upload", commonly used to interact with OSM servers.

-- althio

On Jan 19, 2018 10:29 AM, "Gaurav Thapa" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
> Could you tell me what buttons are used in JOSM for partial saves? Here in Nepal we frequently upload changes as internet is intermittent this feature would be greatly beneficial for us all.
>
> Regards,
> Gaurav
>
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Michael Collinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Micah,
>>
>> I think you came up with a good answer to your conundrum in an earlier post in this thread: Don't explain what an optimal changeset IS, explain what it is NOT:
>>
>> Something like:
>>
>> "It helps other contributors understand your edits if you group what you are doing in a local area into one changeset. For example, if you are creating the outlines of 20 buildings, group them into one changeset. On the other hand, if you are adding 3 POIs, (points of interest),  that are 1000 km apart in different countries, then it is more useful to put them into 3 changesets.  Of course, if you are creating the outlines of 1,000 buildings in your town, you do not have to do them all at once!
>>
>> If you worried about losing your data, our data editor software allows you to make incremental saves to the OSM server as you go along. iD does this automatically. Potlatch and JOSM have buttons that allow you to save partial work into a changeset and then keep adding to it until you are done."
>>
>> [This could probably be improved for readability by non-native English speakers. And the editor text should be fact checked, I am a die-hard Potlatch user.]
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> (first post for a long, long time)
>>
>>
>> On 1/17/18 4:13 PM, Micah Brzozowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.
>>>
>>> I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.
>>>
>>> I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best practice in short form in changeset comments.
>>>
>>> Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't backfire ;)
>>>
>>> 17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>>>>
>>>> >  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>>>>
>>>> my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers & forget & go to the next house    ( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed gratification  )
>>>> - sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.
>>>>
>>>> imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community. 
>>>>
>>>> Imre
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Certainly not:
>>>>> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>>>>> - one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries
>>>>>
>>>>> These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michał
>>>>>
>>>>> 17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tobias
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>>>>>> > Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
>>>>>> > changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
>>>>>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
>>>>>> > tool you use.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
>>>>>> > iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
>>>>>> > better thus forming their own judgement.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
>>>>>> > how we would define it?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
>>>>>> > changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Michał
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > talk mailing list
>>>>>> > [hidden email]
>>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ talk mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gaurav Thapa
> Project Manager
> Secondary Cities Pokhara Project
> Kathmandu Living Labs
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>




--
Gaurav Thapa
Project Manager
Secondary Cities Pokhara Project
Kathmandu Living Labs

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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

john whelan-2
> Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S frequently in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for greater chance for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.

and that would be my view as well.  I'm not sure I see the advantage of bigger changesets.  The same amount of data ends up in the database.

Thanks John

On 20 January 2018 at 09:36, Gaurav Thapa <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S frequently in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for greater chance for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 2:59 AM, althio <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Gaurav,

In the row of buttons, the first two are "Open" and "Save": these actions are for files locally on your computer.
Third and fourth buttons are "Download" and "Upload", commonly used to interact with OSM servers.

-- althio

On Jan 19, 2018 10:29 AM, "Gaurav Thapa" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
> Could you tell me what buttons are used in JOSM for partial saves? Here in Nepal we frequently upload changes as internet is intermittent this feature would be greatly beneficial for us all.
>
> Regards,
> Gaurav
>
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Michael Collinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Micah,
>>
>> I think you came up with a good answer to your conundrum in an earlier post in this thread: Don't explain what an optimal changeset IS, explain what it is NOT:
>>
>> Something like:
>>
>> "It helps other contributors understand your edits if you group what you are doing in a local area into one changeset. For example, if you are creating the outlines of 20 buildings, group them into one changeset. On the other hand, if you are adding 3 POIs, (points of interest),  that are 1000 km apart in different countries, then it is more useful to put them into 3 changesets.  Of course, if you are creating the outlines of 1,000 buildings in your town, you do not have to do them all at once!
>>
>> If you worried about losing your data, our data editor software allows you to make incremental saves to the OSM server as you go along. iD does this automatically. Potlatch and JOSM have buttons that allow you to save partial work into a changeset and then keep adding to it until you are done."
>>
>> [This could probably be improved for readability by non-native English speakers. And the editor text should be fact checked, I am a die-hard Potlatch user.]
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> (first post for a long, long time)
>>
>>
>> On 1/17/18 4:13 PM, Micah Brzozowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.
>>>
>>> I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.
>>>
>>> I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best practice in short form in changeset comments.
>>>
>>> Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't backfire ;)
>>>
>>> 17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>>>>
>>>> >  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>>>>
>>>> my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers & forget & go to the next house    ( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed gratification  )
>>>> - sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.
>>>>
>>>> imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community. 
>>>>
>>>> Imre
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Certainly not:
>>>>> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>>>>> - one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries
>>>>>
>>>>> These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michał
>>>>>
>>>>> 17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tobias
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>>>>>> > Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
>>>>>> > changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
>>>>>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
>>>>>> > tool you use.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
>>>>>> > iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
>>>>>> > better thus forming their own judgement.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
>>>>>> > how we would define it?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
>>>>>> > changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Michał
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > talk mailing list
>>>>>> > [hidden email]
>>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ talk mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gaurav Thapa
> Project Manager
> Secondary Cities Pokhara Project
> Kathmandu Living Labs
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>




--
Gaurav Thapa
Project Manager
Secondary Cities Pokhara Project
Kathmandu Living Labs

_______________________________________________
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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Craig Wallace-2
In reply to this post by Gaurav Thapa
On 2018-01-20 14:36, Gaurav Thapa wrote:
> Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S
> frequently in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for
> greater chance for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.

In JOSM, click on the Upload button. Then in the Upload dialogue, click
on the tab for "Changesets". Then that has an option for "Close
changeset after upload". If you untick that option, it will keep the
changeset open.
So you can do frequent uploads, all in the same changeset. Or you could
have several changesets open, and upload different parts into each one.

Some details here: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/Upload


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Re: How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Gaurav Thapa
@Craig, thank you for this new information. I will give this a try regarding keeping a changeset open while uploading different parts and will also teach novice mappers about this option. Though, like John Whelan I am still skeptical about the added advantage of bigger changesets.
@mmd regarding your question about internet connection. Yes normally a large changeset results in a long wait for things to upload thus, we like to encourage people to upload after every 100 map changes (tracing 1 rectangular building = 5 changes). However, when internet is really slow there is the problem of OSM server response you mention. 


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:53 PM, Craig Wallace <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2018-01-20 14:36, Gaurav Thapa wrote:
Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S frequently in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for greater chance for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.

In JOSM, click on the Upload button. Then in the Upload dialogue, click on the tab for "Changesets". Then that has an option for "Close changeset after upload". If you untick that option, it will keep the changeset open.
So you can do frequent uploads, all in the same changeset. Or you could have several changesets open, and upload different parts into each one.

Some details here: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/Upload



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Secondary Cities Pokhara Project
Kathmandu Living Labs

_______________________________________________
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12