Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

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Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
Is there any situation where crop=yes should not be removed as utterly useless?

9326 of 9657 crop=yes is on landuse=farmland - it seems to me that it is
not adding any information whatsoever.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crop
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/LB1

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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Paul Allen
On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 16:12, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

9326 of 9657 crop=yes is on landuse=farmland - it seems to me that it is
not adding any information whatsoever.

Some farmland is used to grow crops.  Some farmland is used to graze sheep
or cows.  So not entirely useless, but perhaps with better ways of handling
it.

Of course, some farmland is rotated between crops and grazing.  So you might
need to change crop=yes to crop=no occasionally, or use a conditional.

--
Paul


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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3


sent from a phone

> On 17. Aug 2019, at 17:09, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 9326 of 9657 crop=yes is on landuse=farmland - it seems to me that it is
> not adding any information whatsoever.


certainly removing them would be even less useful? You could read it as a way of stating that something is purposefully grown there. Someone else might refine it later ...

Cheers Martin
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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Warin

Would produce=crop be better?
As produce could be fish, cattle, sheep, wool, or crops.
produce=crop would say that only crops are produced here.



On 18/08/19 01:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 17. Aug 2019, at 17:09, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> 9326 of 9657 crop=yes is on landuse=farmland - it seems to me that it is
>> not adding any information whatsoever.
>
> certainly removing them would be even less useful? You could read it as a way of stating that something is purposefully grown there. Someone else might refine it later ...
>
> Cheers Martin
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Joseph Eisenberg
Produce=crop would be worse, because “crop” is not a type of produce, and produce= is only very rarely used for crop land ( crop= is the established key for types of crops like rice, sugarcane, wheat, etc)

As I mentioned on the Talk:Key:crop page, I suspect that this tag crop=yes is sometimes used to say “this area of farmland is used as crop land”, that is, to grow row crops like grains/sugarcane/other annuals. So at least we know it probably isn’t a meadow or a farmyard or an orchard?

Joseph

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 7:44 AM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Would produce=crop be better?
As produce could be fish, cattle, sheep, wool, or crops.
produce=crop would say that only crops are produced here.



On 18/08/19 01:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 17. Aug 2019, at 17:09, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> 9326 of 9657 crop=yes is on landuse=farmland - it seems to me that it is
>> not adding any information whatsoever.
>
> certainly removing them would be even less useful? You could read it as a way of stating that something is purposefully grown there. Someone else might refine it later ...
>
> Cheers Martin
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Leif Rasmussen
But isn't that the definition of farmland in OSM?  I would map meadows, farmyards, and orchards with their respective tags, not with landuse=farmland.
Leif R

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 7:18 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Produce=crop would be worse, because “crop” is not a type of produce, and produce= is only very rarely used for crop land ( crop= is the established key for types of crops like rice, sugarcane, wheat, etc)

As I mentioned on the Talk:Key:crop page, I suspect that this tag crop=yes is sometimes used to say “this area of farmland is used as crop land”, that is, to grow row crops like grains/sugarcane/other annuals. So at least we know it probably isn’t a meadow or a farmyard or an orchard?

Joseph

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 7:44 AM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Would produce=crop be better?
As produce could be fish, cattle, sheep, wool, or crops.
produce=crop would say that only crops are produced here.



On 18/08/19 01:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 17. Aug 2019, at 17:09, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> 9326 of 9657 crop=yes is on landuse=farmland - it seems to me that it is
>> not adding any information whatsoever.
>
> certainly removing them would be even less useful? You could read it as a way of stating that something is purposefully grown there. Someone else might refine it later ...
>
> Cheers Martin
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Warin
Cannot farm land can be used for crops for some time, and then milk cattle for some other period of time?
IIRC that is what one of my relatives did. 


On 18/08/19 11:20, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
But isn't that the definition of farmland in OSM?  I would map meadows, farmyards, and orchards with their respective tags, not with landuse=farmland.
Leif R

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 7:18 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Produce=crop would be worse, because “crop” is not a type of produce, and produce= is only very rarely used for crop land ( crop= is the established key for types of crops like rice, sugarcane, wheat, etc)

The rate of present usage does not limit the use of a tag.
colour=#93006B is only used once in the data base ..
height=16 metres is only used once in the data base...

Crop is a produce.
produce=crop has 2 uses .. presently.
I have been mapping a small area where my family farmed for several generations ... tomorrow there will be a lot more produce=crop.
If the judgement is simply on frequency of use the result may well be wrong.




As I mentioned on the Talk:Key:crop page, I suspect that this tag crop=yes is sometimes used to say “this area of farmland is used as crop land”, that is, to grow row crops like grains/sugarcane/other annuals. So at least we know it probably isn’t a meadow or a farmyard or an orchard?

Vineyards have their own tag, should the tag crop=grapes be removed?


Joseph

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 7:44 AM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Would produce=crop be better?
As produce could be fish, cattle, sheep, wool, or crops.
produce=crop would say that only crops are produced here.



On 18/08/19 01:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 17. Aug 2019, at 17:09, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> 9326 of 9657 crop=yes is on landuse=farmland - it seems to me that it is
>> not adding any information whatsoever.
>
> certainly removing them would be even less useful? You could read it as a way of stating that something is purposefully grown there. Someone else might refine it later ...
>
> Cheers Martin
> ______________



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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


sent from a phone

> On 18. Aug 2019, at 01:17, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So at least we know it probably isn’t a meadow or a farmyard or an orchard?


and not used for pasture

Cheers Martin
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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Warin
"Crop is a produce"

What does that mean?

The word "crop" in British English means " a cultivated plant that is
grown on a large scale commercially, especially a cereal, fruit, or
vegetable. (Oxford); or "a plant such as a grain, fruit, or vegetable
grown in large amounts" (Cambridge).

Plants are not produce, "produce" is the thing that a plant produces,
in OSM: "Describes a feature's agricultural output..." - so the word
"crop" is not appropriate, because "crop" is not the agricultural
output of an area of farmland, but a category.

But I see that there is some desire for a tag for generic cropland, or
farmland used to grow unspecified crops. For this I would suggest the
key "farmland=cropland" or "crop=field_cropland", rather than crop=yes
(less specific) or produce=crop (unclear).

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/farmland
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/crop=field_cropland

Warin, if you do decide to use any of these tags, please document them
at a Tag: page or in your userspace or a proposal, if you have the
time.

Joseph

On 8/18/19, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Cannot farm land can be used for crops for some time, and then milk
> cattle for some other period of time?
> IIRC that is what one of my relatives did.
>
>
> On 18/08/19 11:20, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
>> But isn't that the definition of farmland in OSM? I would map meadows,
>> farmyards, and orchards with their respective tags, not with
>> landuse=farmland.
>> Leif R
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 7:18 PM Joseph Eisenberg
>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>     Produce=crop would be worse, because “crop” is not a type of
>>     produce, and produce= is only very rarely used for crop land (
>>     crop= is the established key for types of crops like rice,
>>     sugarcane, wheat, etc)
>>
>
> The rate of present usage does not limit the use of a tag.
> colour=#93006B <https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/colour=%2393006B>
> is only used once in the data base ..
> height=16 metres is only used once in the data base...
>
> Crop is a produce.
> produce=crop has 2 uses .. presently.
> I have been mapping a small area where my family farmed for several
> generations ... tomorrow there will be a lot more produce=crop.
> If the judgement is simply on frequency of use the result may well be
> wrong.
>
>
>
>>
>>     As I mentioned on the Talk:Key:crop page, I suspect that this tag
>>     crop=yes is sometimes used to say “this area of farmland is used
>>     as crop land”, that is, to grow row crops like
>>     grains/sugarcane/other annuals. So at least we know it probably
>>     isn’t a meadow or a farmyard or an orchard?
>>
>
> Vineyards have their own tag, should the tag crop=grapes be removed?
>
>>
>>     Joseph
>>
>>     On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 7:44 AM Warin <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>         Would produce=crop be better?
>>         As produce could be fish, cattle, sheep, wool, or crops.
>>         produce=crop would say that only crops are produced here.
>>
>>
>>
>>         On 18/08/19 01:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>         >
>>         > sent from a phone
>>         >
>>         >> On 17. Aug 2019, at 17:09, Mateusz Konieczny
>>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>         >>
>>         >> 9326 of 9657 crop=yes is on landuse=farmland - it seems to
>>         me that it is
>>         >> not adding any information whatsoever.
>>         >
>>         > certainly removing them would be even less useful? You could
>>         read it as a way of stating that something is purposefully
>>         grown there. Someone else might refine it later ...
>>         >
>>         > Cheers Martin
>>         > ______________
>>
>
>

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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Warin
On 18/08/19 16:39, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
"Crop is a produce"

What does that mean?

The word "crop" in British English means " a cultivated plant that is
grown on a large scale commercially, especially a cereal, fruit, or
vegetable. (Oxford); or "a plant such as a grain, fruit, or vegetable
grown in large amounts" (Cambridge).

Plants are not produce, "produce" is the thing that a plant produces,
in OSM: "Describes a feature's agricultural output..." - so the word
"crop" is not appropriate, because "crop" is not the agricultural
output of an area of farmland, but a category.

'Crop'

Look at the values used for crop crop=coconut, crop=wheat, crop=hay etc. All of the reasonable ones are also 'produce'.
 (Unreasonable ones such as 'market gardening are not crops so fail as produce too.)


Look at the OSM description:

Crop: "The crop produced by cultivated land." That would not be the plant but the output? And it does not match the BE definition?



 'Produce' 
 English dictionary as noun is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "Agricultural and other natural products collectively."
In OSM description: Describes a feature's agricultural output produced though a natural process of growing or breeding.

The BE and OSM meanings are a much closer match for 'produce' where as they differ for 'crop'. 


But I see that there is some desire for a tag for generic cropland, or
farmland used to grow unspecified crops. For this I would suggest the
key "farmland=cropland" or "crop=field_cropland", rather than crop=yes
(less specific) or produce=crop (unclear).

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/farmland
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/crop=field_cropland

Warin, if you do decide to use any of these tags, please document them
at a Tag: page or in your userspace or a proposal, if you have the
time.

There are many values for the key crop that lack documentation. crop=field_cropland being one, I think that describes the landuse not the output. 
Another one that looks to me to be very bad is 'market_gardening'. 

As these are 'common' yet lack documentation there is a need for them to be documented by those that support them. Joseph? 



Joseph

On 8/18/19, Warin [hidden email] wrote:
Cannot farm land can be used for crops for some time, and then milk
cattle for some other period of time?
IIRC that is what one of my relatives did.

? Anyone care to comment?


On 18/08/19 11:20, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
But isn't that the definition of farmland in OSM? I would map meadows,
farmyards, and orchards with their respective tags, not with
landuse=farmland.
Leif R

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 7:18 PM Joseph Eisenberg
<[hidden email] [hidden email]> wrote:

    Produce=crop would be worse, because “crop” is not a type of
    produce, and produce= is only very rarely used for crop land (
    crop= is the established key for types of crops like rice,
    sugarcane, wheat, etc)

The rate of present usage does not limit the use of a tag.
colour=#93006B <https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/colour=%2393006B>
is only used once in the data base ..
height=16 metres is only used once in the data base...

Crop is a produce.
produce=crop has 2 uses .. presently.
I have been mapping a small area where my family farmed for several
generations ... tomorrow there will be a lot more produce=crop.
If the judgement is simply on frequency of use the result may well be
wrong.



    As I mentioned on the Talk:Key:crop page, I suspect that this tag
    crop=yes is sometimes used to say “this area of farmland is used
    as crop land”, that is, to grow row crops like
    grains/sugarcane/other annuals. So at least we know it probably
    isn’t a meadow or a farmyard or an orchard?

Vineyards have their own tag, should the tag crop=grapes be removed?

    Joseph

    On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 7:44 AM Warin <[hidden email]
    [hidden email]> wrote:


        Would produce=crop be better?
        As produce could be fish, cattle, sheep, wool, or crops.
        produce=crop would say that only crops are produced here.



        On 18/08/19 01:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
        >
        > sent from a phone
        >
        >> On 17. Aug 2019, at 17:09, Mateusz Konieczny
        <[hidden email] [hidden email]> wrote:
        >>
        >> 9326 of 9657 crop=yes is on landuse=farmland - it seems to
        me that it is
        >> not adding any information whatsoever.
        >
        > certainly removing them would be even less useful? You could
        read it as a way of stating that something is purposefully
        grown there. Someone else might refine it later ...
        >
        > Cheers Martin
        > ______________



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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


sent from a phone

> On 18. Aug 2019, at 08:39, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For this I would suggest the
> key "farmland=cropland" or


ok


> "crop=field_cropland",


not ok IMHO, field cropland is a kind if field, not a kind of crop


> rather than crop=yes


to me this isn’t perfect (yes isn’t a crop), but it is in line with building=yes (yes isn’t a building typology either)



> (less specific) or produce=crop (unclear).


+1, produce=crop doesn’t seem reasonable


Cheers Martin
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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 07:40, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

But I see that there is some desire for a tag for generic cropland, or
farmland used to grow unspecified crops. For this I would suggest the
key "farmland=cropland" or "crop=field_cropland", rather than crop=yes
(less specific) or produce=crop (unclear).

Before we get to the details of how we're going to tag it, we need to be clear on what
"it" is.

Modern agricultural techniques (mainly the use of fertilizers, whether natural or
artificial) permit monoculture, where a single type of crop is grown in the same
field, year after year.  This we can map with crop=* (or crop=yes or whatever
replaces it when we know a monoculture crop is grown but we don't know
what it is, although that seems unlikely).

However, it is still fairly common to use crop rotation where different crops are grown
in different years, or even two different crops in the same year.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_rotation  One crop in the rotation may be
grass, harvested for silage to later be fed to animals.  In some cases a field
in a crop rotation may be used as pasture for a year to directly feed animals.
Land in crop rotation may be left fallow for a year, with no crop.  OTOH,
where the land is very uneven then it might be used for nothing but pasture
(sheep or goats are the usual "crop" on land like that).

Maybe we need crop=rotation rather than crop=yes.  I suspect we need both.  Not
necessarily as the tag crop=yes if everyone thinks there's a better tag, but we need to
cover "this is used to grow crops in some sort of rotation" and "this is used to grow
crops but I can't figure out what type from this distance and I don't know if it's
monoculture or rotation."

Or maybe we should restrict ourself to mapping it as farmland because, in general,
we don't know what a farmer is going to do with a given field from year to year.  There
are specific cases where we're fairly sure a field is used for monoculture and we
have specific tags for those: orchard, vineyard, etc.  But, in general, just because I
see oilseed rape in a field this year that doesn't mean it's going to be oilseed
rape next year (it usually isn't, around here).

I should also point out that many farms around here devote some or all of their land
to tourism.  Is that crop=tourist?  Where the tourists pitch their tents or park their
caravans is a camp site, but some of the farmland may be left for tourists to
use recreationally (aka the farmer having given up on farming completely
because it's no longer economic).

--
Paul


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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 18. Aug 2019, at 14:10, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Land in crop rotation may be left fallow for a year, with no crop.  OTOH,
> where the land is very uneven then it might be used for nothing but pasture
> (sheep or goats are the usual "crop" on land like that).


+1, also where the soil is very meager (?) it may not be worth to plant crops and will be only used for extensive pasture



>
> Maybe we need crop=rotation rather than crop=yes.  I suspect we need both.



I’d prefer a new property crop_rotation=yes rather than using the crop key for something that isn’t a crop type.



> Not
> necessarily as the tag crop=yes if everyone thinks there's a better tag, but we need to
> cover "this is used to grow crops in some sort of rotation" and "this is used to grow
> crops but I can't figure out what type from this distance and I don't know if it's
> monoculture or rotation."


+1

By the way, maybe fields used for “organic” agriculture could get another new property as well?



>
> Or maybe we should restrict ourself to mapping it as farmland because, in general,
> we don't know what a farmer is going to do with a given field from year to year.


this is what you can always do, and what you should do if you don’t know the specifics, although from a survey (or even from detailed aerial imagery) even a city dweller would usually be able to distinguish at least pasture from crops (if she passes there at the right time).


Cheers Martin
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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Paul Allen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 14:13, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

this is what you can always do, and what you should do if you don’t know the specifics, although from a survey (or even from detailed aerial imagery) even a city dweller would usually be able to distinguish at least pasture from crops (if she passes there at the right time).

It is often possible to see a random speckle of white blobs and infer those are sheep.  The
problem is that farmers move sheep from one field to another after they've eaten all
the grass in one field.  So absence of white blobs does not mean the field is not used
for pasture.  And, as I already mentioned, that field may be used for pasture only one
year in four as part of crop rotation.

Thinking about it, maybe we should reactivate landuse=pasture and add
landuse=arable.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arable_land which makes the
distinction between pasture, arable land, and land for permanent woody crops
(orchard, vineyards, rubber plantation, nut trees, etc.)  We already have tags for
many of the woody crops, so adding pasture and arable would fit in well and
wouldn't require us to change the crop=* every year because of crop rotation.

--
Paul


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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Joseph Eisenberg
landuse=meadow is also used for pasture, as mentioned on it's wiki
page and description. Since it's not always obvious if grass is going
to be grazed or cut for hay, it would often be difficult to tell the
difference.

I normally only use landuse=farmland for cropland, since the other
times of agricultural land have more specific tags: landuse=farmyard
for animal pens, barns, paddocks etc, landuse=orchard for orchards and
plantations, landuse=vineyard for grape vines, landuse=meadow for
pasture and meadow, landuse=aquaculture. Those tags cover everything
except cropland, and fallow farmland, I think.

On 8/18/19, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 14:13, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> this is what you can always do, and what you should do if you don’t know
>> the specifics, although from a survey (or even from detailed aerial
>> imagery) even a city dweller would usually be able to distinguish at
>> least
>> pasture from crops (if she passes there at the right time).
>>
>
> It is often possible to see a random speckle of white blobs and infer those
> are sheep.  The
> problem is that farmers move sheep from one field to another after they've
> eaten all
> the grass in one field.  So absence of white blobs does not mean the field
> is not used
> for pasture.  And, as I already mentioned, that field may be used for
> pasture only one
> year in four as part of crop rotation.
>
> Thinking about it, maybe we should reactivate landuse=pasture and add
> landuse=arable.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arable_land which makes
> the
> distinction between pasture, arable land, and land for permanent woody
> crops
> (orchard, vineyards, rubber plantation, nut trees, etc.)  We already have
> tags for
> many of the woody crops, so adding pasture and arable would fit in well and
> wouldn't require us to change the crop=* every year because of crop
> rotation.
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Paul Allen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 14:52, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
landuse=meadow is also used for pasture, as mentioned on it's wiki
page and description. Since it's not always obvious if grass is going
to be grazed or cut for hay, it would often be difficult to tell the
difference.

I didn't spot meadow.  Sure, that's fine.

I normally only use landuse=farmland for cropland, since the other
times of agricultural land have more specific tags: landuse=farmyard
for animal pens, barns, paddocks etc, landuse=orchard for orchards and
plantations, landuse=vineyard for grape vines, landuse=meadow for
pasture and meadow, landuse=aquaculture. Those tags cover everything
except cropland, and fallow farmland, I think.

So how about landuse=arable for cropland and only have crop=* where the
mapper is certain it's monoculture and what the crop is?  Maybe landuse=fallow
too, although I'm not certain that is useful.  That leaves landuse=farmland
for the situation where you're sure it's used for farming but can't tell from
aerial imagery if it's meadow or arable or strawberries or...

--
Paul


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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Paul Allen


sent from a phone

On 18. Aug 2019, at 15:41, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thinking about it, maybe we should reactivate landuse=pasture and add
landuse=arable.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arable_land which makes the
distinction between pasture, arable land, and land for permanent woody crops
(orchard, vineyards, rubber plantation, nut trees, etc.)  We already have tags for
many of the woody crops, so adding pasture and arable would fit in well and
wouldn't require us to change the crop=* every year because of crop rotation.



rather than retagging everything we could have farmland=pasture and farmland=crops (or “arable”, but crops might be easier to understand)


Ciao Martin 

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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
It's unlikely that a synonym of landuse=farmland will be accepted by
most mappers. That's why I suggested using something like
landuse=farmland + farmland=cropland - the key farmland=* is already
used (though not in a very consistent or helpful way). Or cropland=yes
would also work fine.

For fallow fields, there is already a tag fallow=yes which has been
used in a few places. I'm thinking of starting to use this for fields
in my area that have been left fallow for more than 1 year, but still
are clearly areas of farmland and not yet overgrown with scrub.

On 8/18/19, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 14:52, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> landuse=meadow is also used for pasture, as mentioned on it's wiki
>> page and description. Since it's not always obvious if grass is going
>> to be grazed or cut for hay, it would often be difficult to tell the
>> difference.
>>
>
> I didn't spot meadow.  Sure, that's fine.
>
> I normally only use landuse=farmland for cropland, since the other
>> times of agricultural land have more specific tags: landuse=farmyard
>> for animal pens, barns, paddocks etc, landuse=orchard for orchards and
>> plantations, landuse=vineyard for grape vines, landuse=meadow for
>> pasture and meadow, landuse=aquaculture. Those tags cover everything
>> except cropland, and fallow farmland, I think.
>>
>
> So how about landuse=arable for cropland and only have crop=* where the
> mapper is certain it's monoculture and what the crop is?  Maybe
> landuse=fallow
> too, although I'm not certain that is useful.  That leaves landuse=farmland
> for the situation where you're sure it's used for farming but can't tell
> from
> aerial imagery if it's meadow or arable or strawberries or...
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

Warin
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On 18/08/19 22:10, Paul Allen wrote:
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 07:40, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

But I see that there is some desire for a tag for generic cropland, or
farmland used to grow unspecified crops. For this I would suggest the
key "farmland=cropland" or "crop=field_cropland", rather than crop=yes
(less specific) or produce=crop (unclear).

Before we get to the details of how we're going to tag it, we need to be clear on what
"it" is.

Modern agricultural techniques (mainly the use of fertilizers, whether natural or
artificial) permit monoculture, where a single type of crop is grown in the same
field, year after year.  This we can map with crop=* (or crop=yes or whatever
replaces it when we know a monoculture crop is grown but we don't know
what it is, although that seems unlikely).

However, it is still fairly common to use crop rotation where different crops are grown
in different years, or even two different crops in the same year.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_rotation  One crop in the rotation may be
grass, harvested for silage to later be fed to animals.  In some cases a field
in a crop rotation may be used as pasture for a year to directly feed animals.
Land in crop rotation may be left fallow for a year, with no crop.  OTOH,
where the land is very uneven then it might be used for nothing but pasture
(sheep or goats are the usual "crop" on land like that).

Sheep. goats, cattle, kangaroos or camels are not 'crops' but 'produce'.


Maybe we need crop=rotation rather than crop=yes.  I suspect we need both.  Not
necessarily as the tag crop=yes if everyone thinks there's a better tag, but we need to
cover "this is used to grow crops in some sort of rotation" and "this is used to grow
crops but I can't figure out what type from this distance and I don't know if it's
monoculture or rotation."

And where part of that rotation includes animals the tag should be produce=rotation?
Possibly the mapper will not know if the rotation is only plants.


Or maybe we should restrict ourself to mapping it as farmland because, in general,
we don't know what a farmer is going to do with a given field from year to year.  There
are specific cases where we're fairly sure a field is used for monoculture and we
have specific tags for those: orchard, vineyard, etc.  But, in general, just because I
see oilseed rape in a field this year that doesn't mean it's going to be oilseed
rape next year (it usually isn't, around here).

In some parts only cattle are run, in other parts sheep, in other parts plants, and in some parts a combination.
Where that is this single use it is easy to tag e.g. produce=cattle, where there is variation from time to time then it gets complicated.


I should also point out that many farms around here devote some or all of their land
to tourism.  Is that crop=tourist?  Where the tourists pitch their tents or park their
caravans is a camp site, but some of the farmland may be left for tourists to
use recreationally (aka the farmer having given up on farming completely
because it's no longer economic).

If it has totally gone from farm use then it needs to be re-tagged. '
Occasional use I don't think should be tagged.
Regular use can be tagged using the conditional attribute.

A problem maybe seen with 'fallow'. While this seems to be 'weeds' to the casual observer, growing weeds by a farm will be seen as destructive to their other activities and any weeds will be discouraged. Usually 'fallow' land will be planted out with some cheap coverage that can be usefully turned back it to the soils. So 'fallow' to me is a 'produce' of 'fertiliser' that does not leave the paddock.

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