Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Mike N.
On 8/10/2018 9:01 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Probably it is done so that plus-codes are known to local actors?
> Perhaps, local conditions differ from European ones to the degree that
> it is difficult to comprehend without being part of local community?

That is a perfect use case for a printed map or app that shows
plus-codes on buildings or other POIs.  That can be calculated from the
user's location or location of the POI as the map is being rendered.

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Palolo
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
There are several conflicting perspectives here.
My objective is to give addresses to people who will never have one. Last year I was living in a city in Africa ( 6GVW2FXH+4H) with a population of a half a million people.  None of the streets and roads have names, nor are there any house numbers in that city or any of the surrounding rural areas where most of the population lives.  As the population in Africa migrates to urban settings in the next few decades the cities will be expanding greater than governments' ability to create infrastructure, including addresses, to support the populations.  
Plus codes is a practical solution to provide addresses that are usable by both humans and machines. It is interesting that this effort for addressing is being trashed because it is savvy technology.  Plus code can be calculated on the fly, but if they are to be used we will need to have hardcopy maps with the addresses that can be used to direct aid workers to a specific location. Just because something could be done doesn't mean that it will or should be done.  If we provide easy access to an address as an attribute for OSM it will get used. I don't understand what problems would be created by adding valuable information to an address point.  So far I see no practical solution for giving an address to the billions of people that do not have one, just because a tag value has intelligence and practical value is no reason to throw it away.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:05 AM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
A simple stopgap solution would be a program that converted one to the other where the result could be cut and pasted into another program.  They are probably called apps these days.

If you know the code it would give you the lat and long in a format that could be searched by Nominatim.  

Grabbing the lat and long from the map and converting it needs a process.  

Suggestions?

Thanks John

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:58 am john whelan, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would agree the import should be reverted.  The data is redundant and there is a danger that it might not be correct.  The pure lat and long data already in OSM can be used to calculate the code.

It does add weight to the idea of making them searchable perhaps with a JOSM plugin and support in OSMand for off line use and Nominatim for on line use.

Cheerio John

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:50 am Michael Reichert, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Am 2018-08-09 um 22:48 schrieb Vao Matua:
> The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses for
> 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample village
> (1800 points) as a test.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59213224
>
> The Python code on Github works great to calculate Plus Codes.
>
> We did used these tags:
> addr:pluscode:full  (the 8+2 digit full Plus Code)
> addr:pluscode:area (the first 4 digits of the full Plus Code which is a 1
> degree by 1 degree lat long area)
> addr:pluscode:local (the second 4 digits + last 2 digits which used with a
> local name becomes the local address)

There is no need for this data in OSM because the data can be retrieved
automatically from latitude and longitude (plain coordinates) which are
already assigned to anything which has a location on the planet.

Adding Plus Code tags to OSM objects is as useful as adding latitude=*
and longitude=* or any other coordinate system which can be calculated
from latitude and longitude.

This import should be reverted.

Best regards

Michael


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Barry Hunter
 
It is interesting that this effort for addressing is being trashed because it is savvy technology. 
 
Dont see anyone has 'trashed' the idea of using Plus Codes as such. 

Just the bulk import of them as data to the core OSM database. Its redundant data. 



 
Plus code can be calculated on the fly,

Exactly, the address search interface/gazetteer could show the address with a plus code. 
 
 
but if they are to be used we will need to have hard copy maps with the addresses that can be used to direct aid workers to a specific location.

So have a fancy renderer than can render the Plus Codes as needed. 

Never tried, but it should be possible to render special plus code aligned grids on the map.  


I don't understand what problems would be created by adding valuable information to an address point.

another issue with it being added as tags, if the node is moved to correct its location, the editor would have to remember to update the plus-code tags as well (not just the lat/long) 

If want to find where a plus code is, a search interface, can just decode the plus code, get a lat/long and run a standard geospatial query. That works now worldwide, without any sort of bulk import of tags. 

... as tags it would need a text index of the tags, and search that. 

Apparently there are currently 4665583767 nodes in OSM, the tags mentioned seem to be about 83 bytes long. That's 390 Gigabytes of data just to add plus codes to them all. 


A basic mobile phone could easily compute the location for a plus-code with the algorithm. If had to look it up in this database would be way more than 390gb of data on the device! (or need an active internet connection to the online database) 


 
  So far I see no practical solution for giving an address to the billions of people that do not have one, 

Every single point on earth already has a plus code already. Its already been assigned by the algorithm. 

Just like every single point as a lat/long coordinate. 


 

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 19:02, Barry Hunter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> another issue with it being added as tags, if the node is moved to correct its location, the editor would have to remember to update the plus-code tags as well (not just the lat/long)


this only if you see it as location information, not if it is used as an address (the location where to go to, see the example of the long driveway above)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot
In reply to this post by Palolo
Friends!

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:32 PM, Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There are several conflicting perspectives here.
> My objective is to give addresses to people who will never have one.

I want to do this too and plus codes do seem like a good solution, not
perfect, but pretty darn good, especially compared to other options.

But something like this has to be done in conjunction with folks on
the ground who will be affected. OSM has a long history of small scale
trials of tags based on local context.

It also has a history of accepting tags that are sanctioned by
governments or international government organizations (confusingly
enough pcodes for example)

I think an approach based on local buy-in, with a small scale test of
adding the PlusCode address to the objects is the fastest, OSM'ish way
forward.

That will also give those who are interested to add plus codes
programatically to the community developed applications and OSM code
time to do that, if they so choose.

Then we know how well both approaches work for different use cases and
generate some information on if pluscodes are viable solutions or not
to this problem and how best to move forward with them.

Let us find a local community that is asking for this and give it a trial there.

Respectfully,
blake

Last

> year I was living in a city in Africa ( 6GVW2FXH+4H) with a population of a
> half a million people.  None of the streets and roads have names, nor are
> there any house numbers in that city or any of the surrounding rural areas
> where most of the population lives.  As the population in Africa migrates to
> urban settings in the next few decades the cities will be expanding greater
> than governments' ability to create infrastructure, including addresses, to
> support the populations.
> Plus codes is a practical solution to provide addresses that are usable by
> both humans and machines. It is interesting that this effort for addressing
> is being trashed because it is savvy technology.  Plus code can be
> calculated on the fly, but if they are to be used we will need to have
> hardcopy maps with the addresses that can be used to direct aid workers to a
> specific location. Just because something could be done doesn't mean that it
> will or should be done.  If we provide easy access to an address as an
> attribute for OSM it will get used. I don't understand what problems would
> be created by adding valuable information to an address point.  So far I see
> no practical solution for giving an address to the billions of people that
> do not have one, just because a tag value has intelligence and practical
> value is no reason to throw it away.
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:05 AM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> A simple stopgap solution would be a program that converted one to the
>> other where the result could be cut and pasted into another program.  They
>> are probably called apps these days.
>>
>> If you know the code it would give you the lat and long in a format that
>> could be searched by Nominatim.
>>
>> Grabbing the lat and long from the map and converting it needs a process.
>>
>> Suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:58 am john whelan, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would agree the import should be reverted.  The data is redundant and
>>> there is a danger that it might not be correct.  The pure lat and long data
>>> already in OSM can be used to calculate the code.
>>>
>>> It does add weight to the idea of making them searchable perhaps with a
>>> JOSM plugin and support in OSMand for off line use and Nominatim for on line
>>> use.
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:50 am Michael Reichert, <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Am 2018-08-09 um 22:48 schrieb Vao Matua:
>>>> > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses
>>>> > for
>>>> > 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample village
>>>> > (1800 points) as a test.
>>>> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59213224
>>>> >
>>>> > The Python code on Github works great to calculate Plus Codes.
>>>> >
>>>> > We did used these tags:
>>>> > addr:pluscode:full  (the 8+2 digit full Plus Code)
>>>> > addr:pluscode:area (the first 4 digits of the full Plus Code which is
>>>> > a 1
>>>> > degree by 1 degree lat long area)
>>>> > addr:pluscode:local (the second 4 digits + last 2 digits which used
>>>> > with a
>>>> > local name becomes the local address)
>>>>
>>>> There is no need for this data in OSM because the data can be retrieved
>>>> automatically from latitude and longitude (plain coordinates) which are
>>>> already assigned to anything which has a location on the planet.
>>>>
>>>> Adding Plus Code tags to OSM objects is as useful as adding latitude=*
>>>> and longitude=* or any other coordinate system which can be calculated
>>>> from latitude and longitude.
>>>>
>>>> This import should be reverted.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
>>>> ausgenommen)
>>>> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> talk mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



--
----------------------------------------------------
Blake Girardot
OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
skype: jblakegirardot

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Barry Hunter
In reply to this post by dieterdreist


On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:09 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 19:02, Barry Hunter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> another issue with it being added as tags, if the node is moved to correct its location, the editor would have to remember to update the plus-code tags as well (not just the lat/long)


this only if you see it as location information, not if it is used as an address (the location where to go to, see the example of the long driveway above)

Haven't seen that example. 

But in the case of a long driveway wouldnt the address be attached to the entryway (so that directions etc, can route to the right location)?

The plus-code can be computed from that node. 




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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 10.08.18 20:09, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> this only if you see it as location information, not if it is used as an address (the location where to go to, see the example of the long driveway above)
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
>
There could be a psychological aspect to it too. Up to 40% of some
cities are constructed without any planning permission meaning that
theoretically these buildings are "illegal".

These people could not add addr:street= and addr:housenumber= for their
houses at the OSM map for years, and all of a sudden they can add an
address. They can have a true modern address, which is probably even
better than a legacy system offers, which based on the laws of nature.

brgds

O.




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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot
On Friday 10 August 2018, Blake Girardot wrote:
> [...]
>
> Let us find a local community that is asking for this and give it a
> trial there.

I read this as "lets find some country with no sufficiently organized
local community to resists and push this nonsense idea of adding
encoded coordinates as tags to features there in a hope to sneak this
into OSM".  This is exactly the arrogant and abusive approach
what3words used for their proprietary system.

The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
of the whole geodata world.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Oleksiy Muzalyev
On 10.08.18 20:46, Christoph Hormann wrote:

> On Friday 10 August 2018, Blake Girardot wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> Let us find a local community that is asking for this and give it a
>> trial there.
> I read this as "lets find some country with no sufficiently organized
> local community to resists and push this nonsense idea of adding
> encoded coordinates as tags to features there in a hope to sneak this
> into OSM".  This is exactly the arrogant and abusive approach
> what3words used for their proprietary system.
>
> The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> of the whole geodata world.
>
what3words is a proprietary commercial approach. The OLC is Open Source,
and it is used at the Google Maps for almost three years.

If OLC generating and search are implemented at the OSM, it would become
sort of an universal open source standard.

As for using it in tags, if one clicks at another part of the same
building the OLC code would be different. And what if one wants to have
a constant legal address?



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Mark Wagner
In reply to this post by Palolo
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 09:32:50 -0700
Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Plus code can be calculated on the fly, but if they are
> to be used we will need to have hardcopy maps with the addresses that
> can be used to direct aid workers to a specific location.

Plus codes form a hierarchical grid, so supporting them on hardcopy
maps can easily be done when the maps are prepared for printing.

I don't know if you're familiar with the UGSG topo maps, but if you
aren't, I recommend looking at one of the 1:24000-scale maps from the
late 1970s/early 1980s.  It's got three location grids on it: UTM
coordinates and latitude/longitude markings on the outside, and PLSS
township/range/section markings on the map itself.  Adding a plus-code
grid to the map would be no problem, and wouldn't require importing
billions of tags into OSM.

--
Mark

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Jmapb
In reply to this post by Barry Hunter
On 8/10/2018 1:33 PM, Barry Hunter wrote:

>
> But in the case of a long driveway wouldnt the address be attached to
> the entryway (so that directions etc, can route to the right location)?

This isn't very common, and there's no documentation of this practice on
the addr or service=driveway wiki pages. (There is mention of adding
addr:* tags to an "entrance/gate", but no suggestion as to when this
should be done.)

 From what I've seen, usually the house at the end of the driveway would
get the addr:* tags, and the routing engine would route down the
driveway -- or, if the driveway is tagged access=private, to the nearest
spot on the public road, which is *usually* pretty close to where the
driveway starts.

In your scenario, what gets the addr: tags? The driveway itself, or the
intersection node?

J





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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Palolo
Hi,

I am very surprised that this discussion is not dead yet. To me, this is
like one person saying 1+1 is 2 and the other person saying 1+1 is 3.
This is something that should not be a matter of opinion; this is a
matter of logic.

Vao, when you write:

> My objective is to give addresses to people who will never have one.

that's totally ok, and can be done with OSM and plus codes, no question!

The issue is just: Should the algorithm that converts lat/lon into plus
codes be applied "centrally" and the result of the computation stored in
OSM (which seems to be your approach), or should the computation instead
happen at the point where a human being interfaces with OSM.

To take the example of OSMAnd and make it very clear, step by step.

Let's assume we have two people, each using OSMAnd, and one person (A)
wants to communicate to the other person (B) where they live.

Your approach goes like this:

1. A zooms to their house on OSMAnd.
2. A clicks on the house to somehow bring up all tags the house has.
3. One of these tags is the plus code, because it has been added at
another time by a third party.
4. A tells B the plus code.
5. B invokes a search function on their OSMAnd, and OSMAnd searches for
an object that has the given plus code.
6. B knows where to go.

This approach requires extra functionality in OSMAnd (namely: evaluating
the plus code tags), and it requires a third party to have added the
plus code for the location in question beforehand. It also requires OSM
to store the plus codes.

The approach that I - and everyone else who applies the same logic -
propose, is:

1. A zooms to their house on OSMAnd.
2. A clicks on the house to invoke the plus code computation function in
OSMAnd.
3. OSMAnd displays the plus code.
4. A tells B the plus code.
5. B enters the plus code into OSMAnd, and OSMAnd applies the reverse
computation function.
6. B knows where to go.

This approach requires extra functionality in OSMAnd to apply the plus
code computation, but libraries and code for that exist. This approach
does NOT require that someone else has added the particular location to
OSM before - it works everywhere on the planet. Also, this approach does
not require OSM to store all the plus codes.

The only thing that approach A has going for it is that if someone has
the means to access OSM, but has no means to invoke the plus code
computation, they can still read the plus code from the tag. But I
struggle to think of a scenario like that.

I think that approach B is not only better, it is the only sane
approach. Approach A makes users dependent on the goodwill of someone
who uploads all the tags to OSM. Approach B makes this "someone"
unnecessary. When used in a humanitarian/development context, approach A
represents the old style of making people dependent on aid (dependent on
a third party running a plus code import project), whereas approach B is
making users independent. Approach A is the wrong approach for everyone.

> It is interesting that this effort for
> addressing is being trashed because it is savvy technology.

You are misreading me and many others here. Plus codes may be savvy
technology (albeit I can see how the dependency on latin alphabet may be
putting some people off). Plus codes themselves are not under attack
here; what is being criticized is using plus codes to do "approach A",
and *that* is very certainly not savvy!

I and many others have said this a few times in this thread, and I have
the impression that it has not really become clear. I hope that this
lengthy post has managed to explain it, and I am sure that once you have
thought this through you will see that - *especially* from a development
aid perspective - approach A is the last thing you want!

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Mark Wagner
On 10.08.18 21:07, Mark Wagner wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 09:32:50 -0700
> Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Plus code can be calculated on the fly, but if they are
>> to be used we will need to have hardcopy maps with the addresses that
>> can be used to direct aid workers to a specific location.
> Plus codes form a hierarchical grid, so supporting them on hardcopy
> maps can easily be done when the maps are prepared for printing.
>
> I don't know if you're familiar with the UGSG topo maps, but if you
> aren't, I recommend looking at one of the 1:24000-scale maps from the
> late 1970s/early 1980s.  It's got three location grids on it: UTM
> coordinates and latitude/longitude markings on the outside, and PLSS
> township/range/section markings on the map itself.  Adding a plus-code
> grid to the map would be no problem, and wouldn't require importing
> billions of tags into OSM.
>
It is absolutely clear. A plus-code is generated by a mathematical
formula from coordinates almost instantaneously, and vice versa.

The same as say the binary code is generated from the C++ programming
language, or words are created from letters, etc. It is just another
layer of abstraction, which makes it easier to perform a task.

In principle it is possible to write a computer program in assembler,
the low-level programming language. But it is a bit easier to do it in
C++, Java, PHP, etc. The same is here. It is easier to memorize a
plus-code, to transmit over the telephone, to put it on the address
plaque, etc. Yes, it is possible to do the same thing with coordinates'
digits, but nobody does it.

So people try to find another solutions for places which do not have
street-name addresses, to create another layer of abstraction.
Coordinates themselves are created from numbers and are also just an
abstraction, but not convenient enough for most people.

Best regards,

Oleksiy



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot
Blake,

On 10.08.2018 19:23, Blake Girardot wrote:
> I think an approach based on local buy-in, with a small scale test of
> adding the PlusCode address to the objects is the fastest, OSM'ish way
> forward.

Christoph was a bit harsh in his response but I think he is right on teh
fundamentals, and I urge you to reconsider.

As I have explained in another post just a few minutes ago, taking the
"adding tags to OSM" approach is a cynical form of aid - it makes people
using it depend on your aid. It wastes effort with those adding the
data, it wastes storage space in OSM, it has *nothing*, absolutely
nothing going for it.

The sensible approach is to add the logic that converts plus codes to
locations and vice versa to those places where people interface with the
map - be that the osm.org web site, or the offline application they're
using, or the machine that prints a map. It would not be difficult to
modify e.g. the humanitarian map style to print plus codes onto
buildings, computing them on the fly, if that's desired. Doing this
means you develop it once and it is immediately usable everywhere by
everyone. That is the only sensible approach. Otherwise you'll be stuck
running one project after the other ("add plus codes for X community",
"add plus codes for Y community", etc.), and not only that: The generic
approach will automatically work for everything built in the future. It
can be used to address not only houses but wells, mountains, bays, even
trees. It is better in *every* respect.

We must let reason prevail here and not do something on a whim based on
a misunderstanding of how things work.

It is sad that it has come to a point where some people seem to have
already built "projects" around importing plus codes in a way that
everyone here would have told them is the least useful of all, had they
botehred to ask! Let us stop the madness before it spreads further, and
work on doing it right.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Barry Hunter
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev


On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 8:18 PM Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10.08.18 21:07, Mark Wagner wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 09:32:50 -0700
> Vao Matua <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Plus code can be calculated on the fly, but if they are
>> to be used we will need to have hardcopy maps with the addresses that
>> can be used to direct aid workers to a specific location.
> Plus codes form a hierarchical grid, so supporting them on hardcopy
> maps can easily be done when the maps are prepared for printing.
>
> I don't know if you're familiar with the UGSG topo maps, but if you
> aren't, I recommend looking at one of the 1:24000-scale maps from the
> late 1970s/early 1980s.  It's got three location grids on it: UTM
> coordinates and latitude/longitude markings on the outside, and PLSS
> township/range/section markings on the map itself.  Adding a plus-code
> grid to the map would be no problem, and wouldn't require importing
> billions of tags into OSM.
>
It is absolutely clear. A plus-code is generated by a mathematical
formula from coordinates almost instantaneously, and vice versa.

The same as say the binary code is generated from the C++ programming
language, or words are created from letters, etc. It is just another
layer of abstraction, which makes it easier to perform a task.

In principle it is possible to write a computer program in assembler,
the low-level programming language. But it is a bit easier to do it in
C++, Java, PHP, etc. The same is here.
 
It is easier to memorize a
plus-code, to transmit over the telephone, to put it on the address
plaque, etc.

So do that now. It works. 

The 'receiver' just needs a program (unless they know how to decode in head!) to decode it and use it. 

OSMAnd is one example quoted that can ALREADY decode it. 

Support for Open Location Code (OLC)

OsmAnd now also supports the Open Location Code (OLC) way of representing coordinates. OLC coordinates are a combination of letters and numbers, and is considered to be handled easier than the traditional latitude and longitude coordinates. Please read more about OLC here. You can now also search locations via this code in the Search menu - Address - Coordinates Search, there select 'OLC' under Coordinate format. Also, the context menus of any location selected now displays OLC in addition to Latitude and longitude.


Nominatim, or any other 'search box' or geocoder could just as easily implement the decoding of the Open Location Code.

It's a tiny (in the grand scheme of things) but of code to add to the application. 





 
Yes, it is possible to do the same thing with coordinates'
digits, but nobody does it.

How many people do enter a coordinate in the OSM serach box? Apart from map geeks not many. 

With little effort the box could easily understand a plus code. 



It doesnt need millions of tags imported into OSM database to enable it. 

 

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On 10.08.18 22:26, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> ...
> The sensible approach is to add the logic that converts plus codes to
> locations and vice versa to those places where people interface with the
> map - be that the osm.org web site, ...

This is the focal point of this discussion. Do we want to accept the the
Open Location Code technology at the OSM community?

It is clear that a plus-code can be converted to coordinates and vice
versa by a formula. But that does not exist. I tried to enter a plus
code into search box at the OSM.org, it does not work.

It works at Google Maps, but that village Zeze in Tanzania is not mapped
yet at the Google Maps at all. But it is well mapped at the OSM.org.

brgds

O.


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Craig Wallace-2
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On 2018-08-10 20:11, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> The approach that I - and everyone else who applies the same logic -
> propose, is:
>
> 1. A zooms to their house on OSMAnd.
> 2. A clicks on the house to invoke the plus code computation function in
> OSMAnd.
> 3. OSMAnd displays the plus code.
> 4. A tells B the plus code.
> 5. B enters the plus code into OSMAnd, and OSMAnd applies the reverse
> computation function.
> 6. B knows where to go.
>
> This approach requires extra functionality in OSMAnd to apply the plus
> code computation, but libraries and code for that exist. This approach
> does NOT require that someone else has added the particular location to
> OSM before - it works everywhere on the planet. Also, this approach does
> not require OSM to store all the plus codes.
OsmAnd already supports Plus codes. You can do exactly this already. No
extra coding required.
Go to general settings, then coordinate format, then set 'OLC'. Then it
will display Plus codes for any location on the map that you pick. It
works fine for any object on the map, or even blank spaces if you want.
No need for any specific tags.

Craig

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> of the whole geodata world.

Ok, enough of your overly polite, gentle feedback stuff, tell us how
you really feel :)

Cheers,
blake

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Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Mark Wagner

While the goals sound worthy, it is unclear if any of the grid systems
(w3w, plus codes and so on) deliver on their promises and have any
traction outside of people in countries with established addressing
systems trying to push them as solutions for countries without.

As I've pointed out before, if OSM supports a specific system, it
amounts to us picking a winner , and I really don't think that is a good
idea. w3w wants to make money from royalties, google wants to avoid
paying them. Both have a financial interest in us adopting their
systems. IMHO when one eventually "wins" we can start supporting it
then, before one of them pasts the post, it is premature.

Simon




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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
Hi Frederick,

I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

I think for the most part we all agree on the technology solution
really looking like the best option. But it is the best option in the
medium and long term.

In the short term, putting a few thousand plus-codes in as addresses,
while the local community tries them out. Who know if they work for
local folks, but just jamming a few thousand in will allow all the
stake holders to trial these codes. Print maps, put signs on
buildings, communicate with each other using them.

While that goes on, the other technological support can happen if
people wish to do that or maybe we find some funding to add support to
some of the most popular community apps and the nominatum.

But we will still be learning from the small scale tag based trials.

Learning the real world use cases and where the proper technological
solutions work and if there really genuinely are places where dynamic
generation is just not possible.

This seems totally in line with things done in the past and should
work well here.

I am fairly sure I know the local on the ground community that might
like to explore this. The Mugumu Safe House
http://www.tanzdevtrust.org/portfolio-item/mugumu-safe-house-for-girls/
who have to perform rescues. They are first responders to gender based
sexual violence and might be just the sort of organization that would
like to start using plus-codes, and they are local and understand the
local culture and customs better than any other living group of
people.

So, lets take this all down a degree and Vao and whomever else is
interested and formalize the testing of plus codes in a rural tanzania
setting.

But lets leave the address that are imported, they are hurting nothing
at the moment and we should look at them and review them and learn
from them being there now.

Respectfully
blake



On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 3:26 PM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Blake,
>
> On 10.08.2018 19:23, Blake Girardot wrote:
>> I think an approach based on local buy-in, with a small scale test of
>> adding the PlusCode address to the objects is the fastest, OSM'ish way
>> forward.
>
> Christoph was a bit harsh in his response but I think he is right on teh
> fundamentals, and I urge you to reconsider.
>
> As I have explained in another post just a few minutes ago, taking the
> "adding tags to OSM" approach is a cynical form of aid - it makes people
> using it depend on your aid. It wastes effort with those adding the
> data, it wastes storage space in OSM, it has *nothing*, absolutely
> nothing going for it.
>
> The sensible approach is to add the logic that converts plus codes to
> locations and vice versa to those places where people interface with the
> map - be that the osm.org web site, or the offline application they're
> using, or the machine that prints a map. It would not be difficult to
> modify e.g. the humanitarian map style to print plus codes onto
> buildings, computing them on the fly, if that's desired. Doing this
> means you develop it once and it is immediately usable everywhere by
> everyone. That is the only sensible approach. Otherwise you'll be stuck
> running one project after the other ("add plus codes for X community",
> "add plus codes for Y community", etc.), and not only that: The generic
> approach will automatically work for everything built in the future. It
> can be used to address not only houses but wells, mountains, bays, even
> trees. It is better in *every* respect.
>
> We must let reason prevail here and not do something on a whim based on
> a misunderstanding of how things work.
>
> It is sad that it has come to a point where some people seem to have
> already built "projects" around importing plus codes in a way that
> everyone here would have told them is the least useful of all, had they
> botehred to ask! Let us stop the madness before it spreads further, and
> work on doing it right.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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