Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:06 PM, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> While the goals sound worthy, it is unclear if any of the grid systems
> (w3w, plus codes and so on) deliver on their promises and have any
> traction outside of people in countries with established addressing
> systems trying to push them as solutions for countries without.
>
> As I've pointed out before, if OSM supports a specific system, it
> amounts to us picking a winner , and I really don't think that is a good
> idea. w3w wants to make money from royalties, google wants to avoid
> paying them. Both have a financial interest in us adopting their
> systems. IMHO when one eventually "wins" we can start supporting it
> then, before one of them pasts the post, it is premature.
>
> Simon

Hi Simon, what should "win" is the system that works the best. w3w has
been tried, is being tried, we can try that too, but what should win
is what is open, is fit for the purpose, can and will be used and is
non propitiatory.

Our community should have a say in what wins, we can try them both,
but here is a local group asking us to try plus codes and there is a
lot of momentum behind it.

Cheers,


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
On 10.08.18 23:06, Simon Poole wrote:
While the goals sound worthy, it is unclear if any of the grid systems
(w3w, plus codes and so on) deliver on their promises and have any
traction outside of people in countries with established addressing
systems trying to push them as solutions for countries without.

As I've pointed out before, if OSM supports a specific system, it
amounts to us picking a winner , and I really don't think that is a good
idea. w3w wants to make money from royalties, google wants to avoid
paying them. Both have a financial interest in us adopting their
systems. IMHO when one eventually "wins" we can start supporting it
then, before one of them pasts the post, it is premature.

Simon






    

I think it will work like this - a dispatcher at an ambulance service says during a call: "We will not go to your house unless you provide the plus-code. Bot the Google Maps and OpenStreetMap websites allow to generate the plus-code for a house." I mean it will not work without a leadership.

The OLC is Open Source with the Apache 2.0 license. I have a doubt though, - cannot Google in couple of years say: "We change the license and not one has to pay for the OLC usage?" I am not a lawyer and I do not know such subtleties.

Best regards,

Oleksiy


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot HOT/OSM


Am 10.08.2018 um 22:14 schrieb Blake Girardot HOT/OSM:
> ...
> Our community should have a say in what wins, we can try them both,
> but here is a local group asking us to try plus codes and there is a
> lot of momentum behind it.
In the case of w3w one can actually make a technical case for including
them in OSM, in the case of plus codes, as has been pointed out. that is
absurd. If a community wants to try out one or the other, more power to
them, I just fail to see what that has to do with OSM.

Simon

PS: naturally the momentum has a lot to do with very very very deep pockets



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev
>
> I think it will work like this - a dispatcher at an ambulance service says
> during a call: "We will not go to your house unless you provide the
> plus-code. Bot the Google Maps and OpenStreetMap websites allow to generate
> the plus-code for a house." I mean it will not work without a leadership.
>
> The OLC is Open Source with the Apache 2.0 license. I have a doubt though, -
> cannot Google in couple of years say: "We change the license and not one has
> to pay for the OLC usage?" I am not a lawyer and I do not know such
> subtleties.

They can't change the license to the code released now. Download it,
it is yours to use in accordance with the license it was released
under forever.

If they enhance it later, add new code, rewrite it, etc, that can be
under a different license.

But what works right now (or until a license change) will keep working
assuming you have the hardware and software to run it.

cheers
blake



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev


Am 10.08.2018 um 22:18 schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev:
> ...
>
> The OLC is Open Source with the Apache 2.0 license. I have a doubt
> though, - cannot Google in couple of years say: "We change the license
> and not one has to pay for the OLC usage?" I am not a lawyer and I do
> not know such subtleties.
>
>
That is not the point, for the goog it is a net win simply avoiding
systems being adopted for which they potentially would have to pay
royalties for. They don't actually need to charge for their system to
have a win. I'm not making a moral judgement here, improving your bottom
line one way or the other, is exactly the same.

Simon



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:30 PM, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Am 10.08.2018 um 22:14 schrieb Blake Girardot HOT/OSM:
>> ...
>> Our community should have a say in what wins, we can try them both,
>> but here is a local group asking us to try plus codes and there is a
>> lot of momentum behind it.
> In the case of w3w one can actually make a technical case for including
> them in OSM, in the case of plus codes, as has been pointed out. that is
> absurd. If a community wants to try out one or the other, more power to
> them, I just fail to see what that has to do with OSM.
>
> Simon
>
> PS: naturally the momentum has a lot to do with very very very deep pockets
>

Oh absolutely. Vendors supporting OSMF is critical. If a donor wants
to sponsor particular improvements, I 100% support that if the
community generally supports the improvements.

I think we are all agreeing it has really good, lightweight, dynamic
implementation characteristics. That is a great technical criteria.

I do not support w3w (full disclosure founder of w3w has been a
supporter of HOT, an organization I work for, these are my opinions
only). It is a fun idea, but I think it does not work for a number of
reasons. But super cool idea.

But while I do not like the w3w solution, if they wanted to support
OSMF to improve w3w support in osm core and the ecosystem of tools I
would be all for giving it the exact same trial if the community
agreed.

But generally, I think plus codes are coming out looking quite good
from a technical perspective, both dynamically generated and static
uses like address signs and printed maps.

Cheers,
blake



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
Let us just recap.  Open Location Code can be used in OSMand today for anything in Openstreetmap.

It both shows the OLC code and can search for the OLC code so to my mind OLC is already available in OpenStreetMap and can be used operationally today.  There is no need to add additional tags to the database.

If additional tags are added how do we know the data is correct?  How can we be sure a transcription error has not occurred.

Purely from a data quality point of view I would recommend the data is not duplicated.

I understand that in Tanzania a lot of work has been done to add them.  Fine they didn't understand the issues nor did they talk to anyone first.  The issue here is education nothing else.

I would suggest we add it to the search options on the web site and get on with life.

Cheerio John



On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 4:38 AM Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:


Am 10.08.2018 um 22:18 schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev:
> ...
>
> The OLC is Open Source with the Apache 2.0 license. I have a doubt
> though, - cannot Google in couple of years say: "We change the license
> and not one has to pay for the OLC usage?" I am not a lawyer and I do
> not know such subtleties.
>
>
That is not the point, for the goog it is a net win simply avoiding
systems being adopted for which they potentially would have to pay
royalties for. They don't actually need to charge for their system to
have a win. I'm not making a moral judgement here, improving your bottom
line one way or the other, is exactly the same.

Simon


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Craig Wallace-2
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
On 2018-08-10 21:06, Simon Poole wrote:

> While the goals sound worthy, it is unclear if any of the grid systems
> (w3w, plus codes and so on) deliver on their promises and have any
> traction outside of people in countries with established addressing
> systems trying to push them as solutions for countries without.
>
> As I've pointed out before, if OSM supports a specific system, it
> amounts to us picking a winner , and I really don't think that is a good
> idea. w3w wants to make money from royalties, google wants to avoid
> paying them. Both have a financial interest in us adopting their
> systems. IMHO when one eventually "wins" we can start supporting it
> then, before one of them pasts the post, it is premature.

Or OSM could support a variety of different coordinate systems (so long
as they are free/open).
It is possible to search for latitude/longitude on osm.org, why not also
allow UTM/MGRS, Plus codes, Geohash etc.
OSM doesn't have to endorse one particular system as the best.

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That is not the point, for the goog it is a net win simply avoiding
> systems being adopted for which they potentially would have to pay
> royalties for.

Is that not the reason OSM was started in the first place?   :)

But I agree, I hope all the folks and organizations that contribute to
OpenStreetMap profit from it in some way.

Cheers
blake

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Matt Williams-2
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
On 10 August 2018 at 21:06, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Frederick,
>
> I appreciate the thoughtful reply.
>
> I think for the most part we all agree on the technology solution
> really looking like the best option. But it is the best option in the
> medium and long term.
>
> In the short term, putting a few thousand plus-codes in as addresses,
> while the local community tries them out. Who know if they work for
> local folks, but just jamming a few thousand in will allow all the
> stake holders to trial these codes. Print maps, put signs on
> buildings, communicate with each other using them.

But exactly *how* does adding the OLC as a tag to the object in OSM
help them do that? Why do they need them as tags to do any of printing
maps, putting signs on buildings or communicating with others using
them? What actual process, manual or programmatic, are you imagining
here? The only way to make use of OSM is to write software which
processes the database (creating geocoders, rendering maps etc). That
software could *so* easily inject OLCs in whatever way you want. The
only possible reason to have OLCs as a tag is if people are reading
the raw XML OSM data as text printed on paper and want to find out
what OLC a certain way has. No one does that.

To make any meaningful use of these tags they will have to write
software designed to extract the OLCs and interpret them at which
point they could simply *generate* the tags at point-of-use (they are
effectively just an encoded lat/lon). This avoids any onerous manual
tagging and makes anything they create immediately useful as widely as
they wish.

I agree with others in this discussion that it's bizarre that anyone
thinks that adding these codes as tags to all the buildings in a city
is a sensible thing to do or a good use of anyone's time.

Matt

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by Michael Reichert-3
On 10 August 2018 at 22:47, Michael Reichert <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is no need for this data in OSM because the data can be retrieved
automatically from latitude and longitude (plain coordinates) which are
already assigned to anything which has a location on the planet.

Adding Plus Code tags to OSM objects is as useful as adding latitude=*
and longitude=* or any other coordinate system which can be calculated
from latitude and longitude.

This import should be reverted.

I agree, unless people start putting up signs of the Plus Codes outside their house and you're mapping that as the on the ground housenumber. I don't agree with importing these, it just adds unnecessary bloat to the database size.

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Paul Norman
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
On 2018-08-10 1:06 PM, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:
> Learning the real world use cases and where the proper technological
> solutions work and if there really genuinely are places where dynamic
> generation is just not possible.
>
> This seems totally in line with things done in the past and should
> work well here.

Speaking as a developer, it's much easier to add PlusCode support
properly than to try and parse another address tag. Don't add them
thinking it makes it easier.

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
On Friday 10 August 2018, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:
> > The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone
> > with a bit of understanding of computer programming, data
> > processing and data maintainance that even after ignoring all the
> > arguments in substance that have been voiced this should be
> > universally rejected if for no other reason then because it would
> > make OSM the laughing stock of the whole geodata world.
>
> Ok, enough of your overly polite, gentle feedback stuff, tell us how
> you really feel :)

I am afraid that even after reading it several times i have no idea what
you want to say with that.

--
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:23 PM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Friday 10 August 2018, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:
>> > The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone
>> > with a bit of understanding of computer programming, data
>> > processing and data maintainance that even after ignoring all the
>> > arguments in substance that have been voiced this should be
>> > universally rejected if for no other reason then because it would
>> > make OSM the laughing stock of the whole geodata world.
>>
>> Ok, enough of your overly polite, gentle feedback stuff, tell us how
>> you really feel :)
>
> I am afraid that even after reading it several times i have no idea what
> you want to say with that.

My apologies Christoph, it was sarcasm. You were anything but polite
or gentle with your feedback. I thought it was a friendly, funny way
to de-escalate the discussion and hopefully spark some personal
reflection.

Cheers
blake

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by SimonPoole


sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 22:06, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As I've pointed out before, if OSM supports a specific system, it
> amounts to us picking a winner , and I really don't think that is a good
> idea.


we could support any system that is used and can be used free and openly.


> w3w wants to make money from royalties, google wants to avoid
> paying them. Both have a financial interest in us adopting their
> systems. IMHO when one eventually "wins" we can start supporting it
> then, before one of them pasts the post, it is premature.


While it is true that both parties have economic interest in this, plus codes are both, free to use and open source, unlike their 3 words competitor. Even if w3w „wins“ we would likely not be interested in promoting them on OSMF servers.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot HOT/OSM


sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 22:06, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In the short term, putting a few thousand plus-codes in as addresses,
> while the local community tries them out. Who know if they work for
> local folks, but just jamming a few thousand in will allow all the
> stake holders to trial these codes. Print maps, put signs on
> buildings, communicate with each other using them.


you can use plus codes NOW. It is already working. No need to add coordinates in tags.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

john whelan-2
I have two concerns about separate tags and they come from my validation experience with HOT mappers.

The first is duplicate buildings.  When faced with 50 duplicate buildings in a village if I'm feeling good I'll use the to do list to look at each pair and delete the one that is the one that least matches the building outline.  I must confess I do not try to contact the mapper who mapped last time.  If I or someone like me deletes the outline with the additional add tags on it the information will be lost.

I note Blake was kind enough to delete some 500 duplicate buildings very recently very quickly.  He may not have had a changeset discussion on each one.

The other concern is the use of copying buildings by HOT mappers.  It is purely a suspicion of mine but I often see a cluster of buildings of exactly the same size when the underlying buildings are different sizes.  Copy a building with an addr: address code and all the copies will have the same address.

Something else to check when validating and we know there aren't enough validators already.  Also its very difficult and time consuming to check when validating and few validators like validating buildings.

Same topic how do you protect against vandalism?  Someone deliberately changing the address codes?  Vandalism shouldn't happen but adding the codes separately adds a vulnerability.

Would someone who imported the codes please address my concerns.

Thanks John

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 7:25 pm Martin Koppenhoefer, <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 22:06, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In the short term, putting a few thousand plus-codes in as addresses,
> while the local community tries them out. Who know if they work for
> local folks, but just jamming a few thousand in will allow all the
> stake holders to trial these codes. Print maps, put signs on
> buildings, communicate with each other using them.


you can use plus codes NOW. It is already working. No need to add coordinates in tags.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Martin Trautmann
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev
On 18-08-09 15:32, [hidden email] wrote:
> Open Location Codes are also referred to as "plus codes".  Since August
> 2015, Google Maps supports plus codes in their search engine. The
> algorithm is Open Source, licensed under the Apache License 2.0. and
> available on GitHub [1].

Please let me help to understand OLC: is this nothing else than another
representation of lat and lon?

This may be good enough for rural areas and small buildings. But I do
not understand how it should work for very tall buildings.

How would you proceed for those tall buildings?

So how do you provide your OLC? It's the OLC of your actual location?
And you do add the OLC for the entry to your tall building?
(where bells or letter boxes might be located? Or is this an extra OLC?)
And as an extra you do provide the entry to your street?

And this is still a two dimensional address only? How about multilevel
buildings?

I do thing especially about tall buildings with a maze of corridors.
You'd need a list of OLC waypoints how to find your location - within a
building, where GPS will not work.

- Martin


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Andrew Harvey-3
On 11.08.18 00:58, Andrew Harvey wrote:

I agree, unless people start putting up signs of the Plus Codes outside their house and you're mapping that as the on the ground housenumber. ...


_______________________________________________

And they will not start putting up signs of the Plus-Codes outside their house unless the OpenStreetMap community accept this technology. This was a minor experimental import for a small remote town Zeze in the United Republic of Tanzania. Nothing happened. It is not an issue. Zeze is well mapped at OpenStreetMap, but it is not present at the Google Maps.

If the OSM community accepts the OpenLocationCode, then it would become de facto universal addressing system. Only then people may start believing and investing in it.

Best regards,

Oleksiy



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Martin Trautmann
On 11.08.18 08:28, Martin Trautmann wrote:
On 18-08-09 15:32, [hidden email] wrote:
Open Location Codes are also referred to as "plus codes".  Since August
2015, Google Maps supports plus codes in their search engine. The
algorithm is Open Source, licensed under the Apache License 2.0. and
available on GitHub [1].
Please let me help to understand OLC: is this nothing else than another
representation of lat and lon?

This may be good enough for rural areas and small buildings. But I do
not understand how it should work for very tall buildings.

How would you proceed for those tall buildings?

So how do you provide your OLC? It's the OLC of your actual location?
And you do add the OLC for the entry to your tall building?
(where bells or letter boxes might be located? Or is this an extra OLC?)
And as an extra you do provide the entry to your street?

And this is still a two dimensional address only? How about multilevel
buildings?

I do thing especially about tall buildings with a maze of corridors.
You'd need a list of OLC waypoints how to find your location - within a
building, where GPS will not work.

- Martin



_______________________________________________

Hi Martin,

I absolutely agree with you. The OLC is not perfect. All existing addressing systems remind me the situation with email addresses in early 90s. When moving to another part of a town one had to change the email address, because it was provided only by an ISP.

But the OLC is open source. It tries to solve the acute problem that more than four billion people on Earth do not have any address for numerous reasons: there are no street names, there are no streets, buildings are constructed "illegally", etc. Even in some cities with existing inefficient address system finding an address could be a daunting task. I understand perfectly well that developers in Europe and North America, where there is a functional legacy system, cannot grasp the magnitude of the problem. It is something hard to imagine without being implicated.

It is not only a remote problem. The resulting excessive senseless driving on global scale in search of a house causes additional CO2 pollution which concerns all.

Since the OLC (plus-code) is open source there will be further efforts to improve it, to solve the issues which you mentioned and some others. Using just coordinates, however, is like writing a program in assembler, it is possible but less convenient than say in C++.

With best regards,

Oleksiy





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