Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Andrew Hain
This looks to be very comfortably within the computational ability of mobile phone apps (“You could calculate it with AI” is a much less attractive deletionist argument) so everyone who has implemented it by conerting coordinates on the fly would seem to be doing the right thing.

--
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From: Paul Norman <[hidden email]>
Sent: 10 August 2018 23:00:39
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
 
On 2018-08-10 1:06 PM, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:
> Learning the real world use cases and where the proper technological
> solutions work and if there really genuinely are places where dynamic
> generation is just not possible.
>
> This seems totally in line with things done in the past and should
> work well here.

Speaking as a developer, it's much easier to add PlusCode support
properly than to try and parse another address tag. Don't add them
thinking it makes it easier.

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Martin Trautmann


sent from a phone

> On 11. Aug 2018, at 07:28, Martin Trautmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And this is still a two dimensional address only? How about multilevel
> buildings?


for tall buildings you will add a floor number I guess, and in more complex cases a unit or door number as well. These do not require a coordinated effort, every building operator can define them for their building as needed.

Ciao, Martin
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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by dieterdreist


Am 11.08.2018 um 01:19 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> While it is true that both parties have economic interest in this, plus codes are both, free to use and open source, unlike their 3 words competitor. Even if w3w „wins“ we would likely not be interested in promoting them on OSMF servers.
>
Well we support tagging proprietary postcode systems in countries that
have them (say the UK, Ireland and so on), but there it is clear that
they are what is -actually in use-. These post codes tend to legally not
really be different than say w3w codes.


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
If the OSM community accepts the OpenLocationCode, then it would become de facto universal addressing system. Only then people may start believing and investing in it.

As others have pointed out the proper place for OSM to support the OpenLocationCode in OSM is in https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/ both forward and reverse geocoding so if you search for an OLC it finds the coordinates, and vice versa right clicking, Show address here returns the OLC.

Nothing stopping you taking an extract of OSM, adding your own OLC codes to that data and then doing what you like with that. No need to upload it to the OSM database


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot
On Saturday 11 August 2018, Blake Girardot wrote:

> >>
> >> Ok, enough of your overly polite, gentle feedback stuff, tell us
> >> how you really feel :)
> >
> > I am afraid that even after reading it several times i have no idea
> > what you want to say with that.
>
> My apologies Christoph, it was sarcasm. You were anything but polite
> or gentle with your feedback. I thought it was a friendly, funny way
> to de-escalate the discussion and hopefully spark some personal
> reflection.

Well - i wasn't really trying to be polite, i was trying to be direct
because polite arguments by others why tagging encoded coordinates is
not a good idea were ignored.

Anyway i think we have now made the arguments agains tagging this very
clear with Frederik also explaining the practical scenarios in detail.  
Nothing has been brought up against these arguments except the
continued expression of the political desire to push this into the OSM
database despite all the arguments against it.  Everyone is entitled to
their political views but i don't think the OSM database is a place
where these can be articulated.

--
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

sdoerr
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot
On 10/08/2018 21:41, Blake Girardot wrote:

> But while I do not like the w3w solution, if they wanted to support
> OSMF to improve w3w support in osm core and the ecosystem of tools I
> would be all for giving it the exact same trial if the community
> agreed.
>
> But generally, I think plus codes are coming out looking quite good
> from a technical perspective, both dynamically generated and static
> uses like address signs and printed maps.
>
>

There's also Mapcode: http://www.mapcode.com/

--
Steve

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot


Am 10.08.2018 um 23:25 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> Is that not the reason OSM was started in the first place?   :)

It is slightly different in more than one way for a monopoly owner to
pre-emptively create and promote a free system  to stop a competitor
from gaining a foothold in a potential new market (and the goog is
obviously spending a fair bit of small change on the whole thing). I
suspect suing the goog is plan b for the w3w investors if they are not
successful with the company as such. 



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Andrew Hain
If they did sue, could Nomination, Osmand or OSM be liable if we implement it?

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From: Simon Poole <[hidden email]>
Sent: 11 August 2018 09:43
To: Blake Girardot
Cc: OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
 


Am 10.08.2018 um 23:25 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> Is that not the reason OSM was started in the first place?   :)

It is slightly different in more than one way for a monopoly owner to
pre-emptively create and promote a free system  to stop a competitor
from gaining a foothold in a potential new market (and the goog is
obviously spending a fair bit of small change on the whole thing). I
suspect suing the goog is plan b for the w3w investors if they are not
successful with the company as such. 



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

SimonPoole

The argument against the goog is that they have a monopolies in certain markets and are using those to extend in to others, I doubt that you could make a case against third parties supporting what then becomes the monopoly system, but who knows.


I've actually legally been in that situation during the first browser wars and there was never an indication that organisations that signed contracts that were later ruled illegal would be considered liable for that, in the end they didn't really have a choice.


SImon


Am 11.08.2018 um 10:48 schrieb Andrew Hain:
If they did sue, could Nomination, Osmand or OSM be liable if we implement it?

--
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From: Simon Poole [hidden email]
Sent: 11 August 2018 09:43
To: Blake Girardot
Cc: OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
 


Am 10.08.2018 um 23:25 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> Is that not the reason OSM was started in the first place?   :)

It is slightly different in more than one way for a monopoly owner to
pre-emptively create and promote a free system  to stop a competitor
from gaining a foothold in a potential new market (and the goog is
obviously spending a fair bit of small change on the whole thing). I
suspect suing the goog is plan b for the w3w investors if they are not
successful with the company as such. 




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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

mmd
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> of the whole geodata world.

With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Jo-2


Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 11:24 schreef mmd <[hidden email]>:

With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude

If you look at the distribution on the map for the first 3, they are all in 'clusters'. It shouldn't be too hard to remove them, but given that it would require going through the hassle of requesting permission, I don't see who would care enough to do that.

It would be easier to simply add them to JOSM's  list of keys it will discard upon upload.

Polyglot.

PS: Roland, would it make sense to add a possibility to the Overpass API to 'generate' these "addresses"'on-the-fly?

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by mmd
Hi,

On 11.08.2018 11:21, mmd wrote:
> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:

All these have been added by accident, as a side effect of undiscussed
imports.

This is bad, but not as bad as adding them on purpose in the course of
an ill-conceived aid project with the promise of lifting poor people out
of their not-having-an-address misery.

Adding coordinates, or plus codes, as tags to OSM makes no sense.
Building an aid project around it and doing it on purpose is at best
negligent and at worst cynical. It is a waste of the money of whoever
funds the aid project, a waste of resources in OSM, and a waste of time
for those who do it. For OSM to allow this to happen would make us
complicit in that cynicism.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Andrew Errington
In reply to this post by mmd
I tag survey points with latitude and longitude (taken from the plaque on the survey marker). Then it is possible to see if they have been moved accidentally, and for users to check that they are actually in the surveyed location.

Andrew

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 21:24 mmd <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> of the whole geodata world.

With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude

--



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by mmd
On Saturday 11 August 2018, mmd wrote:
>
> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude

I hope you are aware that you are defending a bad tagging idea with the
existence of other bad tagging ideas.

While pointless tags added by imports are an unnecessary burden to data
maintainance and bad for the reputation of OSM since they demonstrate a
lack of quality control for imports in OSM they are not even remotely
as damaging as would be the deliberate large scale addition of encoded
coordinates as tags to millions of features.

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Andrew Hain
In reply to this post by Andrew Errington
Do you know whether the latitude and longitude on the plaque are in the WGS84 that we use?

From: Andrew Errington <[hidden email]>
Sent: 11 August 2018 10:56
To: mmd
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
 
I tag survey points with latitude and longitude (taken from the plaque on the survey marker). Then it is possible to see if they have been moved accidentally, and for users to check that they are actually in the surveyed location.

Andrew

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 21:24 mmd <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> of the whole geodata world.

With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude

--



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Andrew Errington
Yes indeed, otherwise I wouldn't have recorded them.

I'd be happy to hear a better solution for survey points. The naive approach is to assume that the latitude and longitude of the point in OSM is the surveyed value, which it should be, but without external corroboration you can't be sure.

Anyway, my point was it is sometimes appropriate to record explicitly the latitude and longitude of a point, even though it's redundant. In fact in that case redundancy is good.

In this general discussion concerning Open Location Code, tagging the database objects with the OLC is dumb. As soon as someone moves the object the OLC is wrong. To fix that we could re-tag the object with a new OLC, or move it back to the place dictated by the OLC. Obviously, we don't want to move it back (it was moved for a reason), so we could generate a new OLC tag (from the object's lat/lon), but it's pointless storing that as it can be easily and trivially calculated on the fly.

Andrew

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 22:23 Andrew Hain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you know whether the latitude and longitude on the plaque are in the WGS84 that we use?

From: Andrew Errington <[hidden email]>
Sent: 11 August 2018 10:56
To: mmd
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
 
I tag survey points with latitude and longitude (taken from the plaque on the survey marker). Then it is possible to see if they have been moved accidentally, and for users to check that they are actually in the surveyed location.

Andrew

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 21:24 mmd <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> of the whole geodata world.

With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude

--



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

mmd
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
Am 11.08.2018 um 12:18 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> I hope you are aware that you are defending a bad tagging idea with the
> existence of other bad tagging ideas.

The intention was actually quite the opposite. It was more a question of
taking a step back and revisiting those tags where coordinate values
already slipped in in the past where they shouldn't have.

A bit more consistency would also help arguing why we usually don't do
coordinates in tag values.

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Mike N.
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev
On 8/11/2018 1:35 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
> And they will not start putting up signs of the Plus-Codes outside their
> house unless the OpenStreetMap community accept this technology.

    What would actually happen in these locations?  Do they bring up the
web site https://www.openstreetmap.org and use that?

> This
> was a minor experimental import for a small remote town Zeze in the
> United Republic of Tanzania. Nothing happened.

    I see that it has been reverted, but what happened in the 3 months
since the data was placed there.   Was there a plan to use and evaluate
the system?

   The community generally seems open to the idea of adding them to
tools and apps that end users use, although not yet for certain on the
main OSM web site which has the purpose of mapping assistance.

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 5:49 AM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 11.08.2018 11:21, mmd wrote:
>> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
>
> All these have been added by accident, as a side effect of undiscussed
> imports.
>
> This is bad, but not as bad as adding them on purpose in the course of
> an ill-conceived aid project with the promise of lifting poor people out
> of their not-having-an-address misery.
>
> Adding coordinates, or plus codes, as tags to OSM makes no sense.
> Building an aid project around it and doing it on purpose is at best
> negligent and at worst cynical. It is a waste of the money of whoever
> funds the aid project, a waste of resources in OSM, and a waste of time
> for those who do it. For OSM to allow this to happen would make us
> complicit in that cynicism.
>
> Bye
> Frederik

Ok, lets us get back to reality please.

All this huffing and puffing, dumbest idea ever in history, etc etc is
typical and typically not helping.

The situation is:

A ngo on the ground in Tanzania does first responded type work, they
see how helpful addresses are in other contexts, but the area they
work does not have any.

This OLC thing seems like it would be interesting to explore, it might
solve some of their use cases.

All of their tools and workflows can use osm tags, especially like the
addr: tags.

What if we had something like that, an osm tag that had basically an
addr: value, just from OLC instead of however one normally gets an
address. How would that work? Where could we display it? How could we
look them up? etc etc

So by doing a small test using a regular old osm tag, they can explore
if it is useful, how it might help, etc etc. and every single OSM tool
in existence at this moment knows how to deal with osm addr: tags or
osm tags more generally. What a great starting point to see if this
solves any of their use cases, some of which we probably could not
really describe well anyway.

Ya, I am going to try some tagging options so they can get a look at
what is possible if the tools they used supported this in code as they
should, of course.

I was not involved with this at all before, but I am now and I am
going to do what I do, which is do what I can to help people use OSM,
in full accordance with OSM guidelines, which this totally is.

OSM will not break, everything will be ok, but OSM is a folksonomy and
this is folksonomy 101 here.

So take some deep breaths.

Some local OSM'ers are going to experiment very locally and carefully
with how OLCs or an OLC-like thing might fit into their use cases and
we are going to do it by using tags because that is what every OSM
tool in existence right now understands and can use to various
degrees.

We'll make a wiki page, revert the import, we'll detail it in the wiki
page and re do it on a better defined area, described in the wiki
project page.

Also: No one is getting paid for anything related to this at this
point. I personally would like to see Google donate to the OSMF and
let the OSMF grant it out to help OSM core and eco system tools
implement OLC native in code as it should be. Let the OSMF decide how
to best help get the functionality everyone says should "just exist"
in the vast ecosphere of OSM tools. I also plan on following up on
that idea regardless of this tag / no tag issue, which is a minor
issue at best.

Cheers
blake

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

john whelan-2
What do the users in Tanzania  require?  Do they have access to an android smartphone?

If so what is wrong with using OSMand, its free.  Every building in Tanzania has a visible OLC code and its permanent so no danger it will disappear after the trial.

Cheerio John



On 11 August 2018 at 09:31, Blake Girardot <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 5:49 AM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 11.08.2018 11:21, mmd wrote:
>> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
>
> All these have been added by accident, as a side effect of undiscussed
> imports.
>
> This is bad, but not as bad as adding them on purpose in the course of
> an ill-conceived aid project with the promise of lifting poor people out
> of their not-having-an-address misery.
>
> Adding coordinates, or plus codes, as tags to OSM makes no sense.
> Building an aid project around it and doing it on purpose is at best
> negligent and at worst cynical. It is a waste of the money of whoever
> funds the aid project, a waste of resources in OSM, and a waste of time
> for those who do it. For OSM to allow this to happen would make us
> complicit in that cynicism.
>
> Bye
> Frederik

Ok, lets us get back to reality please.

All this huffing and puffing, dumbest idea ever in history, etc etc is
typical and typically not helping.

The situation is:

A ngo on the ground in Tanzania does first responded type work, they
see how helpful addresses are in other contexts, but the area they
work does not have any.

This OLC thing seems like it would be interesting to explore, it might
solve some of their use cases.

All of their tools and workflows can use osm tags, especially like the
addr: tags.

What if we had something like that, an osm tag that had basically an
addr: value, just from OLC instead of however one normally gets an
address. How would that work? Where could we display it? How could we
look them up? etc etc

So by doing a small test using a regular old osm tag, they can explore
if it is useful, how it might help, etc etc. and every single OSM tool
in existence at this moment knows how to deal with osm addr: tags or
osm tags more generally. What a great starting point to see if this
solves any of their use cases, some of which we probably could not
really describe well anyway.

Ya, I am going to try some tagging options so they can get a look at
what is possible if the tools they used supported this in code as they
should, of course.

I was not involved with this at all before, but I am now and I am
going to do what I do, which is do what I can to help people use OSM,
in full accordance with OSM guidelines, which this totally is.

OSM will not break, everything will be ok, but OSM is a folksonomy and
this is folksonomy 101 here.

So take some deep breaths.

Some local OSM'ers are going to experiment very locally and carefully
with how OLCs or an OLC-like thing might fit into their use cases and
we are going to do it by using tags because that is what every OSM
tool in existence right now understands and can use to various
degrees.

We'll make a wiki page, revert the import, we'll detail it in the wiki
page and re do it on a better defined area, described in the wiki
project page.

Also: No one is getting paid for anything related to this at this
point. I personally would like to see Google donate to the OSMF and
let the OSMF grant it out to help OSM core and eco system tools
implement OLC native in code as it should be. Let the OSMF decide how
to best help get the functionality everyone says should "just exist"
in the vast ecosphere of OSM tools. I also plan on following up on
that idea regardless of this tag / no tag issue, which is a minor
issue at best.

Cheers
blake

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