Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Richard Fairhurst
Blake Girardot wrote:
> Also: No one is getting paid for anything related to this at this
> point. I personally would like to see Google donate to the OSMF
> and let the OSMF grant it out to help OSM core and eco system
> tools implement OLC native in code as it should be.

That's done. Tom has coded it. Months ago. It's 20 lines of code (plus
tests), which is a fraction of the bandwidth spent on this thread.

https://github.com/tomhughes/openstreetmap-website/commit/2e0a2c67caf64df732f1e14160d5ead96c73a656

Everyone in this thread appears to think that what Tom has done - i.e.
implementing it in the osm.org client rather than in tags - is a good idea,
apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.

Tom, understandably, doesn't want to push it live without consensus that
it's a good thing
(https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1818#issuecomment-380695939).
I reckon this thread is consensus enough and I'm sure Simon can indulge us
on this one little thing if we promise to uncockup some editor presets in
return. :)

Richard



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Richard Fairhurst
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Blake Girardot wrote:
>> Also: No one is getting paid for anything related to this at this
>> point. I personally would like to see Google donate to the OSMF
>> and let the OSMF grant it out to help OSM core and eco system
>> tools implement OLC native in code as it should be.
>
> That's done. Tom has coded it. Months ago. It's 20 lines of code (plus
> tests), which is a fraction of the bandwidth spent on this thread.
>
> https://github.com/tomhughes/openstreetmap-website/commit/2e0a2c67caf64df732f1e14160d5ead96c73a656
>
> Everyone in this thread appears to think that what Tom has done - i.e.
> implementing it in the osm.org client rather than in tags - is a good idea,
> apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
>
> Tom, understandably, doesn't want to push it live without consensus that
> it's a good thing
> (https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1818#issuecomment-380695939).
> I reckon this thread is consensus enough and I'm sure Simon can indulge us
> on this one little thing if we promise to uncockup some editor presets in
> return. :)
>
> Richard
>

Thank you Richard, I did come in late. Some of the really insulting
comments on that github thread caught my eye and I didn't read back to
understand the issue fully.

As I said, we'll look at all of this and put a wiki page together.

Getting that pull request merged would be a great first step in
helping the folks who this matters to explore the use of plus codes.

I see the goolge manager commented on it. And while he makes some
suggestions, I would rather see exactly what the PR has now be merged
and we can go from there.

Cheers,
blake

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

john whelan-2
I think what is needed is an independent way to generate them from OSMand and I think that is part of the missing puzzle.

Cheerio John

On 11 August 2018 at 11:30, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Richard Fairhurst
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Blake Girardot wrote:
>> Also: No one is getting paid for anything related to this at this
>> point. I personally would like to see Google donate to the OSMF
>> and let the OSMF grant it out to help OSM core and eco system
>> tools implement OLC native in code as it should be.
>
> That's done. Tom has coded it. Months ago. It's 20 lines of code (plus
> tests), which is a fraction of the bandwidth spent on this thread.
>
> https://github.com/tomhughes/openstreetmap-website/commit/2e0a2c67caf64df732f1e14160d5ead96c73a656
>
> Everyone in this thread appears to think that what Tom has done - i.e.
> implementing it in the osm.org client rather than in tags - is a good idea,
> apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
>
> Tom, understandably, doesn't want to push it live without consensus that
> it's a good thing
> (https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1818#issuecomment-380695939).
> I reckon this thread is consensus enough and I'm sure Simon can indulge us
> on this one little thing if we promise to uncockup some editor presets in
> return. :)
>
> Richard
>

Thank you Richard, I did come in late. Some of the really insulting
comments on that github thread caught my eye and I didn't read back to
understand the issue fully.

As I said, we'll look at all of this and put a wiki page together.

Getting that pull request merged would be a great first step in
helping the folks who this matters to explore the use of plus codes.

I see the goolge manager commented on it. And while he makes some
suggestions, I would rather see exactly what the PR has now be merged
and we can go from there.

Cheers,
blake

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst


Am 11.08.2018 um 16:39 schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
>  ....is a good idea,
> apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
>
>
Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling
with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very
good/fit for purpose. But as everybody should know that isn't a
hindrance to being successful in the marketplace and so that aspect can
safely be ignored.


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

john whelan-2
> Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very good/fit for purpose.

And discounting using pure lat and long your solution would be?

Thanks John

On 11 August 2018 at 19:04, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:


Am 11.08.2018 um 16:39 schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
>  ....is a good idea,
> apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
>
>
Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling
with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very
good/fit for purpose. But as everybody should know that isn't a
hindrance to being successful in the marketplace and so that aspect can
safely be ignored.


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

SimonPoole



Am 12.08.2018 um 01:27 schrieb john whelan:
> Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very good/fit for purpose.

And discounting using pure lat and long your solution would be?
A pure numeric (because we know the phone numbers work) grid reference relative to a suitable administrative entity.

BUT as this discussion shows, in the end you could simply number all buildings in a place and add those numbers to OSM (as the authoritative repository) and probably make everybody happier. People seem to be looking more for unique ids for their dwellings than something that is dependent on a relatively fine grained location/coordinate value, of which you may have multiple for one house. We know this works, it is still a very common system in alpine regions in Europe.

Simon


Thanks John

On 11 August 2018 at 19:04, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:


Am 11.08.2018 um 16:39 schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
>  ....is a good idea,
> apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
>
>
Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling
with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very
good/fit for purpose. But as everybody should know that isn't a
hindrance to being successful in the marketplace and so that aspect can
safely be ignored.


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

john whelan-2
Unfortunately reality is new mappers cut and paste buildings so you end up with multiple buildings with the same address.  There are three other problems, maintenance is the first.  How do you ensure that new buildings get a code?  Second in many parts of Africa the same building gets mapped more than once.  Usually the outline that closest fits the building is left but that may not be the one with the address tag and finally how do you prevent someone from changing the tags?  Vandalism is not unknown in OSM.

From a practical point of view an encoded lat and long is a sort of basic works anywhere solution.  Where there is better organisation for example in the alpine regions of Europe then more traditional forms of an address are to be preferred.

Cheerio John


On Sat, 11 Aug 2018, 7:40 pm Simon Poole, <[hidden email]> wrote:



Am 12.08.2018 um 01:27 schrieb john whelan:
> Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very good/fit for purpose.

And discounting using pure lat and long your solution would be?
A pure numeric (because we know the phone numbers work) grid reference relative to a suitable administrative entity.

BUT as this discussion shows, in the end you could simply number all buildings in a place and add those numbers to OSM (as the authoritative repository) and probably make everybody happier. People seem to be looking more for unique ids for their dwellings than something that is dependent on a relatively fine grained location/coordinate value, of which you may have multiple for one house. We know this works, it is still a very common system in alpine regions in Europe.

Simon


Thanks John

On 11 August 2018 at 19:04, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:


Am 11.08.2018 um 16:39 schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
>  ....is a good idea,
> apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
>
>
Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling
with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very
good/fit for purpose. But as everybody should know that isn't a
hindrance to being successful in the marketplace and so that aspect can
safely be ignored.


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by SimonPoole


sent from a phone

On 12. Aug 2018, at 01:40, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

People seem to be looking more for unique ids for their dwellings than something that is dependent on a relatively fine grained location/coordinate value, of which you may have multiple for one house. We know this works, it is still a very common system in alpine regions in Europe.



It depends a lot on the details and setting, in Venice, to give an example with a dense urban setting, building entrances are numbered with 4digits, unique within their “sestiere” (literally not quarter but sixth), and it doesn’t work well for finding a place (unless you use a map which has all the numbers). For a quick impression:


Cheers,
Martin





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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Oleksiy Muzalyev
On 12.08.18 02:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


On 12. Aug 2018, at 01:40, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

People seem to be looking more for unique ids for their dwellings than something that is dependent on a relatively fine grained location/coordinate value, of which you may have multiple for one house. We know this works, it is still a very common system in alpine regions in Europe.

It depends a lot on the details and setting, in Venice, to give an example with a dense urban setting, building entrances are numbered with 4digits, unique within their “sestiere” (literally not quarter but sixth), and it doesn’t work well for finding a place (unless you use a map which has all the numbers). For a quick impression:


Cheers,
Martin







    

Alpine regions and Venice are probably most orderly, civilized, and historically rich places in the world. Alpine villages look like fairy tales. A public bus which serve them may have an ultra-modern colored TV and air conditioning.

Yes, after two or three generations and functioning educational system, maybe. But meanwhile I doubt very much that ids created on the ground, lighted plaques, are even remotely feasible in all regions.

I also think that a coding system per se is not necessarily a good solution, unless it becomes a universal standard. For example, as the HTML or URL for browsers. If two giants the OSM and Google Maps would support the open source OLC (plus-codes), it may work. And it could be good thing for further innovations in this domain, it could create a global market of advanced addressing solutions.

Best regards,

Oleksiy


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Tom Lee
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev
I'm surprised to see that this conversation has made it past the weekend. Since it has, let me add my voice to those suggesting that encoding OLC in the database (or any other values that can be algorithmically derived from geometry) makes very little sense. I'm grateful to everyone who has already made this point, in various ways and with various levels of forcefulness.

If the folks advocating for OLC would like to walk through the rationale some more or explore alternative ways of getting OLC into their workflow, I suspect that a number of people on this thread would be happy to talk through it, myself included. Please don't hesitate to email.

Tom



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Rasťo Šrámek
Perhaps let me add my 2c:
In my mental model there are two cases in which plus codes attain different semantics: a plus code as an encoding of latitude and longitude,
and a plus code written on an sign above a door or on a house. If you asked me I'd say the first should not be ingested into a database and the
second is not really different than any other street number if the database aims to reflect the ground truth.

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Tom Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm surprised to see that this conversation has made it past the weekend. Since it has, let me add my voice to those suggesting that encoding OLC in the database (or any other values that can be algorithmically derived from geometry) makes very little sense. I'm grateful to everyone who has already made this point, in various ways and with various levels of forcefulness.

If the folks advocating for OLC would like to walk through the rationale some more or explore alternative ways of getting OLC into their workflow, I suspect that a number of people on this thread would be happy to talk through it, myself included. Please don't hesitate to email.

Tom



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
In reply to this post by Tom Lee
Hi Tom,

This is an example of the first way I and I think others in the
humanitarian world need to use OLCs to evaluate them for what they can
or can not solve for humanitarian and other use cases:

https://twitter.com/BlakeGirardot/status/1028689726088388609

We need to deal with them at scale, not at the "look up" an individual
address process which is trivial to solve.

That is really the first step, for folks to learn the grid and it's
inherent scale steps and how that translates into OLC codes of various
lengths.

Cheers,
blake



On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Tom Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm surprised to see that this conversation has made it past the weekend.
> Since it has, let me add my voice to those suggesting that encoding OLC in
> the database (or any other values that can be algorithmically derived from
> geometry) makes very little sense. I'm grateful to everyone who has already
> made this point, in various ways and with various levels of forcefulness.
>
> If the folks advocating for OLC would like to walk through the rationale
> some more or explore alternative ways of getting OLC into their workflow, I
> suspect that a number of people on this thread would be happy to talk
> through it, myself included. Please don't hesitate to email.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



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----------------------------------------------------
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Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Jo-2
I would think that if you are in the field, apps like OsmAnd and Maps.ME can show you the OLC address of where you are.

If you want to see a grid in JOSM or iD, it should be trivial to either show them as transparent imagery, or in the case of JOSM, have a plugin draw the grid and show it as an extra layer you can toggle on or off.

I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the database, even if marked on a building.

If I paint the coordinates of my house on it, are you going to map that too? And if so, would you add them to lon and lat tags or to addr:housename?

Polyglot

Op ma 13 aug. 2018 om 18:23 schreef Blake Girardot HOT/OSM <[hidden email]>:
Hi Tom,

This is an example of the first way I and I think others in the
humanitarian world need to use OLCs to evaluate them for what they can
or can not solve for humanitarian and other use cases:

https://twitter.com/BlakeGirardot/status/1028689726088388609

We need to deal with them at scale, not at the "look up" an individual
address process which is trivial to solve.

That is really the first step, for folks to learn the grid and it's
inherent scale steps and how that translates into OLC codes of various
lengths.

Cheers,
blake



On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Tom Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm surprised to see that this conversation has made it past the weekend.
> Since it has, let me add my voice to those suggesting that encoding OLC in
> the database (or any other values that can be algorithmically derived from
> geometry) makes very little sense. I'm grateful to everyone who has already
> made this point, in various ways and with various levels of forcefulness.
>
> If the folks advocating for OLC would like to walk through the rationale
> some more or explore alternative ways of getting OLC into their workflow, I
> suspect that a number of people on this thread would be happy to talk
> through it, myself included. Please don't hesitate to email.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



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Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Daniel Koć
W dniu 13.08.2018 o 18:37, Jo pisze:

> I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the
> database, even if marked on a building.

Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.

--
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 08/13/2018 06:46 PM, Daniel Koć wrote:
>> I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the
>> database, even if marked on a building.

> Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
> not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.

Which code would you then add to a building? Who would be given the
power to decide (maybe of the several possible codes, one is nicer or
contains the initials of the owner)? How would it be verifiable which
code a building has?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Daniel Koć
On 13.08.18 19:46, Daniel Koć wrote:
> W dniu 13.08.2018 o 18:37, Jo pisze:
>
>> I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the
>> database, even if marked on a building.
> Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
> not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.
>
The OLC could be used also in property titles, for creating a real
estate market where it could not exist before. Given - the OLC is
created from coordinates by a mathematical formula and vice versa.

However, the idea was to give an address to 4+ billion people, the
majority of the planet population, who at the time being do not have any.

Waiting until the houses are numbered and streets are named may take
quite some time, - just type in google search "slums" and see the images
tab.

So if it is not allowed to write the OLC as an address, what should
people write if they do not have house numbers and street names?
Nothing? Leave it empty as before?

Regions with classic addresses are rather exceptions, the main part of
humanity does not have them yet at all. And the idea of the OLC is to
provide an address, not only as a location (coordinates), but also as a
plaque, legal address, passport record, medical insurance, school
records, etc.

I can only imagine how humiliating for say a child to say at school that
he does not have an address.

However, it is too early to worry about a database. I would concentrate
first on implementing the generation of OLC and a search for OLC at the
osm.org , i.e. creating an open source standard for an address in
cooperation with Google Maps and others, similar as browsers agreed on
HTML, JS, URL, DNS, SSL open standards. And then it will be seen how
people use it.

Best regards,

O.



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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Daniel Koć


Am 13.08.2018 um 18:46 schrieb Daniel Koć:
> W dniu 13.08.2018 o 18:37, Jo pisze:
>
>> I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the
>> database, even if marked on a building.
> Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
> not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.
>
If you are doing that, why bother with OLC then, when  you can just as
well do some kind of sensible easily digestible house numbering? As you
are recording the value in a geospatial dataset all the advantages of
OLC vanish in a puff of smoke IMHO.


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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Daniel Koć
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
W dniu 13.08.2018 o 19:23, Frederik Ramm pisze:

> Which code would you then add to a building?

I guess I was not clear enough.

I meant only the case when there is proper sign on the building, I would
tag it as an address then. Then and only then. It's perfectly verifiable
and I don't have to decide anything.

For the buildings without a plate with OLC number I would not try to tag
it, exactly because it's not clear which number should it be.

--
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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 08/13/2018 06:46 PM, Daniel Koć wrote:
>>> I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the
>>> database, even if marked on a building.
>
>> Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
>> not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.
>
> Which code would you then add to a building? Who would be given the
> power to decide (maybe of the several possible codes, one is nicer or
> contains the initials of the owner)? How would it be verifiable which
> code a building has?
>
> Bye
> Frederik


This is all exactly right. I can see a building having any one of
about 4 OLC 10 digit "addresses" on average depending on which imagery
the building was last aligned to.

That is just reality of how we are forever refining our representation
of the real world in a digital format. It has imprecision and this is
the scale where it becomes really obvious, 13m or less.

I am suggesting as a next step, we get a TMS layer that represents
this OLC grid and easily displays the 4, 6, 8, or 10 digit long OLC
for the grind square depending on scale.

Then about 5 of our tools "support" it already  because they support TMS layers.

I deal with these things at large scale and at the individual door
level, we all do who are concerned about this issue, so some tools to
help us visualize at scale and quantity these OLC codes will help a
lot. Plus the easy to solve case of "looking up" an OLC code is
already being added by folks like OSMAnd and OSM if they merge in the
existing pull request. I put in issues with two tools that I would
like to see support them, the HOT Tasking Manager and Fieldpapers.
Having OLC grid layer available in those tools would be very helpful,
especially Fieldpapers. A TMS end point would close the one for the
Tasking Manager.

Searching in OAM by OLC might be nice too, very easy to specify the
place and scale with one code.

As I said below, lets get these OLC codes that are in OSM now out, if
they are even still in there.  Vao, myself and whoever else is
interested in being able to use OLC to some degree in the eco system
of the OSM software community tools will figure out what makes sense
and what people want to do and we will go forward from there :)

I think TMS layer, whomever, however, or plug in for josm as polyglot
said, are all great and would really help the folks who want to work
more with OLC to see what, if any use cases it solves.

Cheers
Blake

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Re: Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

john whelan-2
Currently if I wish to send a letter or a package to someone I send it to John Smith @ 110 main street.

OLC codes replaces 110 main street but it does have limitations but John smith @ OLC code should get it close enough to be delivered.

The other issue is there are just the odd one or two buildings mapped in the map that do not match an exact building outline.  I've definitely seen one tagged with a HOT project tag line.

I suspect  these may be problematic but there again if the OLC code gets us fairly close it might well be good enough.

Cheerio John

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