Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

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Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

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shelter=separate was recently added to page documenting shelter key


It effectively redefined shelter=yes from "this bus stop has shelter" to
"this bus stop has shelter that is not separately mapped"

shelter=yes has 557 951 uses
shelter=separate has 245 uses

I want to explicitly describe shelter=yes as "it means that given object has shelter. It may
or may be not mapped as a separate amenity=shelter object"

And describe shelter=separate as unwanted value that should not be used

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

dieterdreist


Am Di., 12. Jan. 2021 um 10:18 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
shelter=separate was recently added to page documenting shelter key


It effectively redefined shelter=yes from "this bus stop has shelter" to
"this bus stop has shelter that is not separately mapped"

shelter=yes has 557 951 uses
shelter=separate has 245 uses

I want to explicitly describe shelter=yes as "it means that given object has shelter. It may
or may be not mapped as a separate amenity=shelter object"

And describe shelter=separate as unwanted value that should not be used
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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

Stefan Tauner
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:16:05 +0100 (CET)
Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

> shelter=separate was recently added to page documenting shelter key
>
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:shelter&diff=2012123&oldid=1990179
>
> It effectively redefined shelter=yes from "this bus stop has shelter" to
> "this bus stop has shelter that is not separately mapped"
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/shelter#values 
> shelter=yes has 557 951 uses
> shelter=separate has 245 uses
>
> I want to explicitly describe shelter=yes as "it means that given object has shelter. It may
> or may be not mapped as a separate amenity=shelter object"
>
> And describe shelter=separate as unwanted value that should not be used

I think the point of shelter=separate is to allow data users to
determine if the stop has a shelter even if it is separately mapped
without the need to do an additional search around the stop for it.
That intention is good IMHO but I guess it would be better to do this
in a relation and there should be a clear hint on the shelter page to do
that with https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:public_transport%3Dstop_area

--
Kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Stefan Tauner

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

dieterdreist
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Am Di., 12. Jan. 2021 um 10:18 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
shelter=separate was recently added to page documenting shelter key


It effectively redefined shelter=yes from "this bus stop has shelter" to
"this bus stop has shelter that is not separately mapped"

shelter=yes has 557 951 uses
shelter=separate has 245 uses

I want to explicitly describe shelter=yes as "it means that given object has shelter. It may
or may be not mapped as a separate amenity=shelter object"

And describe shelter=separate as unwanted value that should not be used




this is an interesting topic. A similar case is amenity=bank with atm=yes. Going by the logics of the system, these are properties for another object (which can also be and is mapped separately). I was not aware of this emerging new value, but I can find some sense in it. Given the numbers, rather than
It effectively redefined shelter=yes from "this bus stop has shelter" to
"this bus stop has shelter that is not separately mapped"
I would see it as redefining to "this bus stop has a shelter, which may have been separately mapped and in which case you are invited to change yes to separate". 
It would take some time to be widely adopted, and in the meantime dataconsumers would have to treat "separate" as a "yes" value for some specific analysis (generally, if you are looking for the feature described in the property and not aware of the separate value, you would typically still catch the feature (shelter / atm etc.), as it is also explicitly mapped).

On the other hand, if you want to know the number of features in an area, it is important to avoid counting the same object several times because it is mapped and also "present" as a property.

I see a case for not deprecating it.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

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Jan 12, 2021, 10:33 by [hidden email]:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:16:05 +0100 (CET)
Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
shelter=separate was recently added to page documenting shelter key

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:shelter&diff=2012123&oldid=1990179

It effectively redefined shelter=yes from "this bus stop has shelter" to
"this bus stop has shelter that is not separately mapped"

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/shelter#values
shelter=yes has 557 951 uses
shelter=separate has 245 uses

I want to explicitly describe shelter=yes as "it means that given object has shelter. It may
or may be not mapped as a separate amenity=shelter object"

And describe shelter=separate as unwanted value that should not be used

I think the point of shelter=separate is to allow data users to
determine if the stop has a shelter even if it is separately mapped
without the need to do an additional search around the stop for it.
That intention is good IMHO but I guess it would be better to do this
in a relation and there should be a clear hint on the shelter page to do
that with https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:public_transport%3Dstop_area

The problem is that there is not even plan to how handle over half million
just redefined shelter=yes, many of them retroactively made incorrect

And looking for nearby amenity=shelter seems relatively straightforward to me,
unlike sidewalks where finding matching separately mapped sidewalk is nasty
- even if footway=* and sidewalk=separate tags were used

In this case I see no reason to redefine existing tag and introduce more work for
mappers.

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

dieterdreist
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the concept is already quite established for sidewalks (93k), moderate use for cycleways (5,8k), only 3 for atms currently.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

dieterdreist
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Am Di., 12. Jan. 2021 um 10:40 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
The problem is that there is not even plan to how handle over half million
just redefined shelter=yes, many of them retroactively made incorrect


they are not redefined. The tag means the thing has a shelter, and it may be separately mapped or not, just like it is now. Same definition. The difference is that with "separate" you know it has a shelter and it is separately mapped.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

Stefan Tauner
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:41:14 +0100
Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> the concept is already quite established for sidewalks (93k), moderate use
> for cycleways (5,8k), only 3 for atms currently.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=separate#values

Yes, we have a lot of bad things in the database. What's your point
exactly? There exists an established way to relate bus shelters to their
stations. No need to use another broken concept to try to do the same
thing just worse.

--
Kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Stefan Tauner

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

Jo-2
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I don't mind being more explicit about it. If we start doing that, we probably need to do it for bin=separate too for consistency, if amenity=waste_basket is mapped on a nearby node, and bench=separate, in case of amenity bench.

Polyglot

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 10:40 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:



Jan 12, 2021, 10:33 by [hidden email]:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:16:05 +0100 (CET)
Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
shelter=separate was recently added to page documenting shelter key


It effectively redefined shelter=yes from "this bus stop has shelter" to
"this bus stop has shelter that is not separately mapped"

shelter=yes has 557 951 uses
shelter=separate has 245 uses

I want to explicitly describe shelter=yes as "it means that given object has shelter. It may
or may be not mapped as a separate amenity=shelter object"

And describe shelter=separate as unwanted value that should not be used

I think the point of shelter=separate is to allow data users to
determine if the stop has a shelter even if it is separately mapped
without the need to do an additional search around the stop for it.
That intention is good IMHO but I guess it would be better to do this
in a relation and there should be a clear hint on the shelter page to do

The problem is that there is not even plan to how handle over half million
just redefined shelter=yes, many of them retroactively made incorrect

And looking for nearby amenity=shelter seems relatively straightforward to me,
unlike sidewalks where finding matching separately mapped sidewalk is nasty
- even if footway=* and sidewalk=separate tags were used

In this case I see no reason to redefine existing tag and introduce more work for
mappers.
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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

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Jan 12, 2021, 10:43 by [hidden email]:
Am Di., 12. Jan. 2021 um 10:40 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]>:

The problem is that there is not even plan to how handle over half million
just redefined shelter=yes, many of them retroactively made incorrect


they are not redefined. The tag means the thing has a shelter, and it may be separately mapped or not, just like it is now. Same definition. The difference is that with "separate" you know it has a shelter and it is separately mapped.
I just encountered people claiming in discussion that =yes value is incorrect if it is mapped
as a separate object

For now I added to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shelter note that shelter=yes means
"There is a shelter, it may or may not be mapped separately as a nearby element with amenity=shelter."

I have not made change that would either discourage shelter=separate or encourage
retagging shelter=yes to shelter=separate if separately mapped shelter exists

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

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Jan 12, 2021, 10:37 by [hidden email]:


Am Di., 12. Jan. 2021 um 10:18 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
It effectively redefined shelter=yes from "this bus stop has shelter" to
"this bus stop has shelter that is not separately mapped"
I would see it as redefining to "this bus stop has a shelter, which may have been separately mapped and in which case you are invited to change yes to separate". 
It would take some time to be widely adopted, and in the meantime dataconsumers would have to treat "separate" as a "yes" value for some specific analysis (generally, if you are looking for the feature described in the property and not aware of the separate value, you would typically still catch the feature (shelter / atm etc.), as it is also explicitly mapped).
Note that data consumers would need to do it forever, this new tag just makes things
more confusing and introduces more work for mappers that is not useful.
On the other hand, if you want to know the number of features in an area, it is important to avoid counting the same object several times because it is mapped and also "present" as a property.
You can count only shelter=yes without nearby amenity=shelter


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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

Stefan Tauner
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On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:38:05 +0100 (CET)
Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The problem is that there is not even plan to how handle over half million
> just redefined shelter=yes, many of them retroactively made incorrect

I see your point.

> In this case I see no reason to redefine existing tag and introduce more work for
> mappers.

Well, eventually we have to go through them all anyway (or have this
tag redundantly remain for backwards compatibility) but I am with you.
The change makes the situation worse.

Still, the hint to the relation should be added ;)
And we should discuss if we should introduce something like separated
but without changing the meaning of =yes. There should be a way to
distinguish the legacy/current meaning "yes, there is a shelter
associated with this stop - either tagged separately or not" and "yes,
there is one but it is separately mapped (and part of the
public_transport=stop_area relation)".
We could re-use the "separate" value for that and verify the bunch of
existing usages.

And apparently that is what you have already decided during our
discussion here? That previous change was in July. Thanks for fixing it
but I don't really appreciate doing this while it is being discussed...
--
Kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Stefan Tauner

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

Tagging mailing list



Jan 12, 2021, 11:04 by [hidden email]:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:38:05 +0100 (CET)
Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem is that there is not even plan to how handle over half million
just redefined shelter=yes, many of them retroactively made incorrect

I see your point.
In this case I see no reason to redefine existing tag and introduce more work for
mappers.

Well, eventually we have to go through them all anyway (or have this
tag redundantly remain for backwards compatibility) but I am with you.
The change makes the situation worse.

Still, the hint to the relation should be added ;)
Which relation?
And we should discuss if we should introduce something like separated
but without changing the meaning of =yes. There should be a way to
distinguish the legacy/current meaning "yes, there is a shelter
associated with this stop - either tagged separately or not" and "yes,
there is one but it is separately mapped (and part of the
public_transport=stop_area relation)".
We could re-use the "separate" value for that and verify the bunch of
existing usages.
Yes, shelter=separate would make a bit more sense if there would
be some way to distinguish =yes from
"using it in standard way, shelter may exist or not" from
"shelter is definitely not mapped as a separate "
And apparently that is what you have already decided during our
discussion here? That previous change was in July. Thanks for fixing it
but I don't really appreciate doing this while it is being discussed...
If it is wrong/controversial it may be easily reverted or changed.

Note that if changes to Wiki cannot be made during discussion
then it strongly discourages asking for feedback on tagging
mailing list.

I would need to setup some reminder system
and keep checking whatever discussion continues and
only after that reread entire discussion again...

And I spend more time on editing OSM Wiki than I should
but I am not so motivated.

What is wrong with adding what seems consensus based
on early comments and later editing it further?

OSM Wiki is not set in stone and for parts where there is
agreement it makes sense to update it, rather than starting
long discussion, not documenting anything and repeating
it say year later

It is really surprising to me that people extremely rarely
update wiki based on what become clear in discussion
- tagging mailing comments/thread are hard to find
and basically always will be forgotten.

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Stefan Tauner
Am Di., 12. Jan. 2021 um 10:50 Uhr schrieb Stefan Tauner <[hidden email]>:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:41:14 +0100
Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> the concept is already quite established for sidewalks (93k), moderate use
> for cycleways (5,8k), only 3 for atms currently.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=separate#values

Yes, we have a lot of bad things in the database. What's your point
exactly? There exists an established way to relate bus shelters to their
stations. No need to use another broken concept to try to do the same
thing just worse.


Can you be more explicit about the working concept? What was your point, adding the shelters in a public transport stop area relation (which is often not existing yet, i.e. all these relations would have to be set up, there are 290k stop area relations and 850k shelter=* on bus stops). What will we do with atms, will we need a relation for all object classes for which there are also properties on different objects?

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

dieterdreist
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Am Di., 12. Jan. 2021 um 11:27 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
What is wrong with adding what seems consensus based
on early comments and later editing it further?

OSM Wiki is not set in stone and for parts where there is
agreement it makes sense to update it, rather than starting
long discussion, not documenting anything and repeating
it say year later

It is really surprising to me that people extremely rarely
update wiki based on what become clear in discussion
- tagging mailing comments/thread are hard to find
and basically always will be forgotten.



+1, thank you for editing the wiki, I completely agree with this. We can always adjust the wiki definitions later if it should become apparent that the consensus is different, but at least it has been raised and discussed publicly. We have not amended the wiki far too many times, because the threads went to the bottom of the mail client and disappeared ;-) You never can tell when a discussion is finished, when there is agreement that the current version is not the consensus it should be changed instantly (even if this just means adding a sentence that there is a dispute about the meaning).

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted?

Marc_marc
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Le 12.01.21 à 10:16, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :
> I want to explicitly describe shelter=yes as "it means that given object
> has shelter. It may
> or may be not mapped as a separate amenity=shelter object"

correct.

> And describe shelter=separate as unwanted value that should not be used

why ? and sidelwalk=seprate too ? and every =separate too ?
it mean "the given object has shelter and it mapped as a separate
amenity=shelter object", it's perfect to avoid wrong stat but also
to review all shelter=yes and improve it with the location of the shelter.



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Re: Is shelter=separate wanted? What is the meaning of shelter=yes

Graeme Fitzpatrick
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On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 20:27, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

It is really surprising to me that people extremely rarely
update wiki based on what become clear in discussion

Maybe because there's rarely a clear consensus in discussions, in that it seems that somebody will always disagree?

& (very tongue in cheek!) should the same 3:1 proportion as in voting rules apply ie if 3 people say it's a bad idea, then at least 9 people have to say it's good before you're allowed to change things? :-)

Thanks

Graeme


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