Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

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Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
to document why it is used and why it is anyway duplicate of bicycle=no.

On the page I claim that
"In some places it is illegal to both ride and push bicycle,
there is no good tagging scheme to indicate it."
and I want to check is it correct.


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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Andy Townsend
On 05/11/2019 13:00, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
to document why it is used and why it is anyway duplicate of bicycle=no.

On the page I claim that
"In some places it is illegal to both ride and push bicycle,
there is no good tagging scheme to indicate it."
and I want to check is it correct.

... "where it is legal to go on foot" is an important proviso.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/65663472 (Meir Tunnel, dry even on a wet Wednesday in Stoke*) bans foot and bicycle traffic, so you can neither walk nor cycle through it.  A cycle router would have to flat-out avoid it, whereas it may choose not to avoid a short bicycle=dismount section if it saves a long detour.

Best Regards,

Andy

* in English football, a "wet Wednesday in Stoke" is thought of as an occasion when a top team's star players may struggle in adverse conditions that the home side are used to.



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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Philip Barnes


On Tuesday, 5 November 2019, Andy Townsend wrote:

> On 05/11/2019 13:00, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > I just created https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Ddismount
> > to document why it is used and why it is anyway duplicate of bicycle=no.
> >
> > On the page I claim that
> > "In some places it is illegal to both ride and push bicycle,
> > there is no good tagging scheme to indicate it."
> > and I want to check is it correct.
> >
> ... "where it is legal to go on foot" is an important proviso.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/65663472 (Meir Tunnel, dry even on a
> wet Wednesday in Stoke*) bans foot and bicycle traffic, so you can
> neither walk nor cycle through it.  A cycle router would have to
> flat-out avoid it, whereas it may choose not to avoid a short
> bicycle=dismount section if it saves a long detour.


For example https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/350458507

and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/23896048

Phil (trigpoint)

>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
> * in English football, a "wet Wednesday in Stoke" is thought of as an
> occasion when a top team's star players may struggle in adverse
> conditions that the home side are used to.
>
>
>

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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend


On 05/11/2019 13:11, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/65663472 (Meir Tunnel, dry even on a
> wet Wednesday in Stoke*) bans foot and bicycle traffic, so you can
> neither walk nor cycle through it.  A cycle router would have to
> flat-out avoid it, whereas it may choose not to avoid a short
> bicycle=dismount section if it saves a long detour.

Shouldn't the preceding ways also be 'no' back to the previous junction?

DaveF


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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Philip Barnes
On Tuesday, 5 November 2019, Dave F via Tagging wrote:

>
>
> On 05/11/2019 13:11, Andy Townsend wrote:
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/65663472 (Meir Tunnel, dry even on a
> > wet Wednesday in Stoke*) bans foot and bicycle traffic, so you can
> > neither walk nor cycle through it.  A cycle router would have to
> > flat-out avoid it, whereas it may choose not to avoid a short
> > bicycle=dismount section if it saves a long detour.
>
> Shouldn't the preceding ways also be 'no' back to the previous junction?
>
It is, well spotted. Needs fixing.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3


sent from a phone

> On 5. Nov 2019, at 14:01, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On the page I claim that
> "In some places it is illegal to both ride and push bicycle,
> there is no good tagging scheme to indicate it."
> and I want to check is it correct.


do you have an example for a street where pushing the bicycle is not allowed? What about pushing a broken bicycle? Carrying a bicycle? Monocycles? Tricycles? Pushing big boxes? Wearing a red hat?
I would be interested to see a law discriminating particularly against pushing bicycles.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

voschix

do you have an example for a street where pushing the bicycle is not allowed? What about pushing a broken bicycle? Carrying a bicycle? Monocycles? Tricycles? Pushing big boxes? Wearing a red hat?
I would be interested to see a law discriminating particularly against pushing bicycles.

Not streets but footways:
Footways in the Nymphenburger Schloss-Park a Muenchen
Footways in the park of Schloss Sanssouci, Potsdam (€15 fine)

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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Markus-5
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 17:28, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> do you have an example for a street where pushing the bicycle is not allowed? What about pushing a broken bicycle? Carrying a bicycle? Monocycles? Tricycles? Pushing big boxes? Wearing a red hat?
> I would be interested to see a law discriminating particularly against pushing bicycles.

https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2016/10/25/venice-bans-pushing-bikes_e4ad7248-970e-49a8-b9a1-73efe5716101.html

And there are some elevators at the train station in Bern where it's
not allowed to take bicycles.

Regards
Markus

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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist



5 Nov 2019, 17:27 by [hidden email]:


sent from a phone
On 5. Nov 2019, at 14:01, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

On the page I claim that
"In some places it is illegal to both ride and push bicycle,
there is no good tagging scheme to indicate it."
and I want to check is it correct.


do you have an example for a street where pushing the bicycle is not allowed? What about pushing a broken bicycle? Carrying a bicycle? Monocycles? Tricycles? Pushing big boxes? Wearing a red hat?
I would be interested to see a law discriminating particularly against pushing bicycles.

Cheers Martin
Streets - no. But has https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Ddismount an example sign,
according to the image description placed in front of Zoo Chleby at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/50.2224/15.0918


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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

voschix
This a well-known (small) problem that from time to time turns up in OSM discussions. And then the discussion fizzles out again.

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 18:20, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:



5 Nov 2019, 17:27 by [hidden email]:


sent from a phone
On 5. Nov 2019, at 14:01, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

On the page I claim that
"In some places it is illegal to both ride and push bicycle,
there is no good tagging scheme to indicate it."
and I want to check is it correct.


do you have an example for a street where pushing the bicycle is not allowed? What about pushing a broken bicycle? Carrying a bicycle? Monocycles? Tricycles? Pushing big boxes? Wearing a red hat?
I would be interested to see a law discriminating particularly against pushing bicycles.

Cheers Martin
Streets - no. But has https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Ddismount an example sign,
according to the image description placed in front of Zoo Chleby at

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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Markus-5
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 18:25, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This a well-known (small) problem that from time to time turns up in OSM discussions. And then the discussion fizzles out again.

Which is also a well-known problem ...

I guess that bicycle=no almost always means that *driving* a bicycle
isn't allowed. So it seems just logical to use a new tag for places
where pushing (or transporting) bicycles isn't allowed too. Maybe
bicycle=total_ban or bicycle_pushed=no?

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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> do you have an example for a street where pushing the bicycle
> is not allowed?

Potentially every public footpath in England & Wales. The law says only that
"usual accompaniments" are permitted, without specifying them. Cycling
organisations try to argue that this includes a bike, but I suspect the wish
is father to the thought in this one. Certainly one local council believes
it doesn't:

https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/environment-and-planning/countryside/public-rights-of-way/rights-and-responsibilities-on-public-rights-of-way/public-rights-and-responsibilities/

Richard



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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Markus-5


sent from a phone

> On 5. Nov 2019, at 18:48, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I guess that bicycle=no almost always means that *driving* a bicycle
> isn't allowed. So it seems just logical to use a new tag for places
> where pushing (or transporting) bicycles isn't allowed too. Maybe
> bicycle=total_ban or bicycle_pushed=no?


I agree that bicycle=no has no implications for people pushing bikes, on the other hand, what is our tag to say you can’t bring an umbrella? Do we really need formalized tagging for every ultra rare kind of prescription?
And are there also places where you can’t carry a bicycle, or is it only about pushing? What if you put your bike in a box, may you bring it then?

Cheers Martin
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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Joseph Eisenberg
Bicycles are prohibited entirely in USA federal Wilderness areas, along with all other machinery. 

- Joseph E

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 6:23 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 5. Nov 2019, at 18:48, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I guess that bicycle=no almost always means that *driving* a bicycle
> isn't allowed. So it seems just logical to use a new tag for places
> where pushing (or transporting) bicycles isn't allowed too. Maybe
> bicycle=total_ban or bicycle_pushed=no?


I agree that bicycle=no has no implications for people pushing bikes, on the other hand, what is our tag to say you can’t bring an umbrella? Do we really need formalized tagging for every ultra rare kind of prescription?
And are there also places where you can’t carry a bicycle, or is it only about pushing? What if you put your bike in a box, may you bring it then?

Cheers Martin
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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by dieterdreist



On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 07:23, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 5. Nov 2019, at 18:48, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I guess that bicycle=no almost always means that *driving* a bicycle
> isn't allowed. So it seems just logical to use a new tag for places
> where pushing (or transporting) bicycles isn't allowed too. Maybe
> bicycle=total_ban or bicycle_pushed=no?


I agree that bicycle=no has no implications for people pushing bikes,

But if bicycle=no means that you can't ride a bike, wouldn't foot=no also mean that you can't push a bike ie if you're pushing a bike, you're walking, & foot=no means you can't walk, so you can't be pushing a bike?
  
Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Warin
On 06/11/19 09:44, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 07:23, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 5. Nov 2019, at 18:48, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I guess that bicycle=no almost always means that *driving* a bicycle
> isn't allowed. So it seems just logical to use a new tag for places
> where pushing (or transporting) bicycles isn't allowed too. Maybe
> bicycle=total_ban or bicycle_pushed=no?


I agree that bicycle=no has no implications for people pushing bikes,

But if bicycle=no means that you can't ride a bike, wouldn't foot=no also mean that you can't push a bike ie if you're pushing a bike, you're walking, & foot=no means you can't walk, so you can't be pushing a bike?
  

If walking is allowed but bicycles (ridden, carried or pushed) are not allowed .. then????

Logically bicycle=no should be taken as no bicycles (ridden, pushed, carried or any other way).

Does motor_vehicle=no mean I can push one though there? I did think not ... at least not on a regular basis ...

However the sign of a bicycle with a red slash through it is usually taken as no ridding of a bicycle and normally allows dismounted transportation of bicycles. At least that is my and others use of the sign here.


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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 6. Nov 2019, at 01:25, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Does motor_vehicle=no mean I can push one though there? I did think not ... at least not on a regular basis


indeed, moto_vehicle=no does not prevent you from pushing your motorcycle.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Markus-5



5 Nov 2019, 18:47 by [hidden email]:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 18:25, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:

This a well-known (small) problem that from time to time turns up in OSM discussions. And then the discussion fizzles out again.

Which is also a well-known problem ...

I guess that bicycle=no almost always means that *driving* a bicycle
isn't allowed. So it seems just logical to use a new tag for places
where pushing (or transporting) bicycles isn't allowed too. Maybe
bicycle=total_ban or bicycle_pushed=no?
bicycle_pushed=no?

bicycle_pushed is more clear for someone encountering it
for the first time - bicycle=total_ban is a bit confusing

Especially as in some places access for bicycles
may be "never" (explicit "no bicycle" signs)
or "only during extreme weather" (one of cases
when it is legal to cycle on sidewalks in Poland).
First case should be tagged as bicycle=no, not bicycle=total_ban.

Also, it may be OK to carry bicycle in a box and not OK
to push (not road access, but in some train you are not allowed to
enter with bicycle,
bit once bicycle is in a box this is considered as entirely fine)

Additional value to bicycle tag would require support
from anyone processing it, while bicycle_pushed=no
is backward compatible.



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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

dieterdreist
Am Mi., 6. Nov. 2019 um 09:16 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
Also, it may be OK to carry bicycle in a box and not OK
to push (not road access, but in some train you are not allowed to
enter with bicycle,
bit once bicycle is in a box this is considered as entirely fine)


as we're at it, what about "apple=no", "milkshake=no", "?

pigeon_feeding=no
alcohol_consumation=no
skateboarding=no
ball_games=no

dogs=no
littering=no
syringes=no
vandalism=no

ok, these were easy, but what about this:

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Allroads
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Yes, indeed, and not only for motorcycle.
also moped and mofa.
There is law that says, pushing the mofa, moped, motorcycle, you must follow
the rules of a pedestrian.
It also says, where the pedestrian should walk, first on a footway, if that
is not there, on cycleway, if that is not there, the verge or the side of
the road.
Trafficsign
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Nederlands_verkeersbord_C11.svg/60px-Nederlands_verkeersbord_C11.svg.png
Law says, the "vehicle" the "motorcycle" is forbidden to use the lane of the
road after this sign, when passing the sign. The above rule overrules is,
pushing is then allowed, rules of the pedestrian to follow.
Or undersign, where in text "the vehicle" is mentioned/forbidden.

Then there are these privat access_signs, with text,  where mostly "the
vehicle" is mentioned in text, not the mode of transportation.

Not only for bicycle dismount is used. These mofa moped motorcycle, need
also wiki pages.

Where "the vehicle" is forbidden, by sign or by text.
Take a value, that others can use too.

? Just a thought!
bicycle=no_vehicle
mofa=no_vehicle
moped=no_vehicle
motorcycle=no_vehicle
?
If you can solve it with a value, do not use a new key!
Otherwise the two keys can be used next to each other, we must avoid this.
no_vehicle is a hard no.
Easier to use for routers, I think, then checking multiple tags.
My point is, which method to use, it should be useable for more kinds of
transportation.
If? use a new key, other transportation modes need also such a key.
Do not vote for one key, make them all at once.

>to document why it is used and why it is anyway duplicate of bicycle=no.

Routers, do not use the bicycle=no as strict as, because "OSM tagging
intention".
quote from Brouter discussion, 19/20 September
>Hm, but in very most cases, bicycle=no is used effectively in sense of
>bicycle=dismount, not in in sense No bicycles here.
>The only relevant interpretation of bicycle=no is the OSM tagging
>intention, not what I or you think about it.
https://github.com/abrensch/brouter/issues/79

We need a hard and strict no.
I need to express the access, so that routers do not use no as a dismount.
I know it is the routers choice. But I want no bicycles there when i set a
tag.

People use also:
bicycle=privat, what is the meaning of that? pushing a bike is allowed?



Allroads.



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 8:05 AM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not
allowed here"?



sent from a phone

> On 6. Nov 2019, at 01:25, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Does motor_vehicle=no mean I can push one though there? I did think not
> ... at least not on a regular basis


indeed, moto_vehicle=no does not prevent you from pushing your motorcycle.

Cheers Martin


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