Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

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Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
Is there any reason for shop=general and shop=general_store to keep existing?

It seems that all cases are covered by better defined and named
shop=convenience shop=supermarket shop=country_store

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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Paul Johnson-3
A small footprint, full service version of a Fred Meyer or Walmart?  Kind of feel country store isn't sure if it wants to be like Atwoods or the strangely named Tractor Supply, or if it wants to be like Cracker Barrel or Boot Barn, or if it's analogous to a feed store.

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 08:46 Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is there any reason for shop=general and shop=general_store to keep existing?

It seems that all cases are covered by better defined and named
shop=convenience shop=supermarket shop=country_store
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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
I would assume a general store sells a much wider range of goods than a convenience store.  Food and hardware for example.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Monday, 25 March 2019, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> Is there any reason for shop=general and shop=general_store to keep existing?
>
> It seems that all cases are covered by better defined and named
> shop=convenience shop=supermarket shop=country_store
>

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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Mateusz Konieczny-3

Mar 25, 2019, 3:22 PM by [hidden email]:
I would assume a general store sells a much wider range of goods than a convenience store. Food and hardware for example.
In situations matching your description I think that either shop=supermarket or shop=country_store would fit.

I am not claiming that shop=general is the same as shop=convenience.


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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Paul Allen
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 at 14:36, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
In situations matching your description I think that either shop=supermarket or shop=country_store would fit.

There used to be a shop near me which wouldn't really match country_store, convenience,
variety, or hardware.  It sold a bizarre mix of things.  No food whatsoever, so not convenience
or supermarket.  No farm or garden equipment or clothing, so not country_store.  Definitely not
cheap (if anywhere else sold something you wanted this place would be more expensive) so
not really variety.

Like I said, it sold a bizarre mix of things.  Kitchen utensils and equipment (but very little
electrical stuff).  Hardware like letterboxes, letterbox draught excluders, wood screws (not a
wide selection), door bolts.  Dustbins.  Firewood.  Brushes and brooms.  I rarely went in there
(after seeing the prices the first time I went in) but there was all kinds of other stuff I barely
remember.  Two local newspapers reporting its closure described it as a "hardware and
household goods" store, but the local pound shop carries a bigger range of hardware than it
did, and neither match up to a proper hardware shop like B&Q (or even B&M).

The closest fit would be general, and even that is a very poor fit (there were no foodstuffs).  But
that's the closest match to "household goods and other random stuff."

I have to ask what purpose is served by deprecating general.  If it were an EXACT synonym of
one of the other shop types then remove it.  But it's not.  There are a lot of grey areas in shop
types, so it makes sense to leave it.  Otherwise we end up deciding whether we should force
a triangular peg into a square hole or a round hole.  There are around 3,500 general stores
mapped, about 0.1% of total shops.  Are we to assume that ALL of those could be better
described with a different value?  Or are we to remove all rarely-used values just because
they are rarely used?

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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Tobias Zwick
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
Well, there is a long wp article about it with a clear description for a start.

From that I understand, general stores are tiny department stores - i.e. a hyper market is to a convenience store as a department store is to a general store.

As it is about what they are selling, not where they can probably be found, "general" certainly seems like a better fit than "country"... If country_- and general_store are even supposed and understood by mappers as being the same thing.

Am 25. März 2019 14:45:41 MEZ schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
>Is there any reason for shop=general and shop=general_store to keep
>existing?
>
>It seems that all cases are covered by better defined and named
>shop=convenience shop=supermarket shop=country_store

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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Paul Allen



Mar 25, 2019, 4:00 PM by [hidden email]:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 at 14:36, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
In situations matching your description I think that either shop=supermarket or shop=country_store would fit.

There used to be a shop near me which wouldn't really match country_store, convenience,
variety, or hardware.  It sold a bizarre mix of things.  No food whatsoever, so not convenience
or supermarket.  No farm or garden equipment or clothing, so not country_store.  Definitely not
cheap (if anywhere else sold something you wanted this place would be more expensive) so
not really variety.

Like I said, it sold a bizarre mix of things.  Kitchen utensils and equipment (but very little
electrical stuff).  Hardware like letterboxes, letterbox draught excluders, wood screws (not a
wide selection), door bolts.  Dustbins.  Firewood.  Brushes and brooms.  I rarely went in there
(after seeing the prices the first time I went in) but there was all kinds of other stuff I barely
remember.  Two local newspapers reporting its closure described it as a "hardware and
household goods" store, but the local pound shop carries a bigger range of hardware than it
did, and neither match up to a proper hardware shop like B&Q (or even B&M).

The closest fit would be general, and even that is a very poor fit (there were no foodstuffs).  But
that's the closest match to "household goods and other random stuff."
I am considering shop=random_stuff

I am not sure whatever shop=general would fit here, note that OSM wiki describes
two meaning of general store (UK and USA one) and both explicitly list food as one of sold products.
I have to ask what purpose is served by deprecating general.  If it were an EXACT synonym of
one of the other shop types then remove it.  But it's not.  There are a lot of grey areas in shop
types, so it makes sense to leave it.  Otherwise we end up deciding whether we should force
a triangular peg into a square hole or a round hole.  There are around 3,500 general stores
mapped, about 0.1% of total shops.  Are we to assume that ALL of those could be better
described with a different value?  Or are we to remove all rarely-used values just because
they are rarely used?
If there is no real information loss then it is preferable to have lower number shop types,
as it is easier to map and easier to use such data.

And given that shop=general is quite often used it would be nice to know what is
its meaning and how it differs from other shop types.

Additional problem with shop=general is that with so generic name it is used in various ways.
You jest explained that it would fit well in your example because it was selling no food, while Emj
(link to the initial wiki version:
)
explicitly listed food as one of products shared in UK and US meanings.

It seems to me that this shop value is confusing and duplicates existing ones.

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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Tobias Zwick
Mar 25, 2019, 4:11 PM by [hidden email]:
Well, there is a long wp article about it with a clear description for a start.

It seems to be quite useful, thanks (I usually skip Wikipedia because 1:1 matches
with osm tags are really rare).

I updated wiki page again ending with following changes:

My conclusion is that this is an old shop type, currently getting rare but there are still some valid uses
but many cases would benefit from retagging to more popular shop values
(where shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store describes it well).

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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On 25/03/2019 15:00, Paul Allen wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 at 14:36, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
In situations matching your description I think that either shop=supermarket or shop=country_store would fit.

There used to be a shop near me which wouldn't really match country_store, convenience,
variety, or hardware.  It sold a bizarre mix of things.  No food whatsoever, so not convenience
or supermarket.  No farm or garden equipment or clothing, so not country_store.  Definitely not
cheap (if anywhere else sold something you wanted this place would be more expensive) so
not really variety.

Like I said, it sold a bizarre mix of things.  Kitchen utensils and equipment (but very little
electrical stuff).  Hardware like letterboxes, letterbox draught excluders, wood screws (not a
wide selection), door bolts.  Dustbins.  Firewood.  Brushes and brooms.  I rarely went in there
(after seeing the prices the first time I went in) but there was all kinds of other stuff I barely
remember.  Two local newspapers reporting its closure described it as a "hardware and
household goods" store, but the local pound shop carries a bigger range of hardware than it
did, and neither match up to a proper hardware shop like B&Q (or even B&M).

The closest fit would be general, and even that is a very poor fit (there were no foodstuffs).  But
that's the closest match to "household goods and other random stuff."

It's always going to be a case of "picking the least worst value".  Barnitt's in York https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1489262121 is tagged as shop=doityourself, but that's only a very small part of its range.  Bunners in Montogomery is similar (see the note on https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/489847395 , and someone's even written a song about that one - http://halfmanhalfbiscuit.uk/90-bisodol-crimond/descent-of-the-stiperstones/ ). 

It's certainly possible to do a fair bit of gardening (with a spade from Barnitt's) in the lower reaches of https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/shop#values where it's really obvious what someone meant (space instead of underscore, misspellings, capitals, looking at shop name and brand etc.), but sometimes the "least worst value" really will be a value that someone might want to "deprecate". 

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Kevin Kenny-3
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 11:44 AM Mateusz Konieczny
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> My conclusion is that this is an old shop type, currently getting rare but there are still some valid uses
> but many cases would benefit from retagging to more popular shop values
> (where shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store describes it well).

General stores, while not as common as they once were, still exist in
the rural communities that I visit - so please don't deprecate the
tag!

They often function as grocery stores, but also will generally offer
tools and hardware, clothing, home goods, camping supplies, bait and
tackle, dry goods, and paper goods - pretty much a little bit of
everything, albeit with a more limited selection than you'd find at a
store in a larger town. The wide offering of general merchandise
distinguishes them from 'supermarket'. The small size and relatively
limited selection distinguish them from supermarket (also, not all
general stores sell perishable food). They're a lot more than a
convenience_store; they're typically the main or only store in the
village. They're surely not a variety_store, and are often overpriced
because many nowadays cater to tourists. (The villagers might drive to
the nearest sizable towm to shop.)

A country_store is something I think of as usually being located
outside a village because they need a lot more space. They'll offer
feed, seed, fertilizer, garden tools, and similar supplies. They often
have nurseries selling bedding plants and trees for planting. (Tractor
Supply and Agway are common brands in the US.)

https://www.hossscountrycorner.com/ is a modern example of a general
store. On visits there, I've bought a belt, a shirt, a half-litre of
methylated spirit, fifty feet of parachute cord, batteries for my head
torch, a pen, an ice cream cone, a phial of insect repellent, rice,
lentils, dried fruits and vegetables, dry sausage, tinned fish, toilet
paper, and I'm sure I've forgotten other things that I got there. (Can
you say, 'hiking resupply?') Oh yeah, a couple of zip ties, although
the guy behind the counter was kind enough to just give those to me
since I needed only a couple.

The other general store in the same village (unusual for one village
to support two, but Long Lake is a tourist town) might better fit
shop=supermarket since it has a fuller line of groceries, but it still
carries much more general merchandise than a typical supermarket. One
of its signs proclaims it to be a general store, which would influence
how I'd tag it.

When this one https://www.acmiller-re.com/ShowProperty.php?ID=407 was
still in business, I'd have dithered over whether it was general_store
or convenience_store and eventually flipped a coin It had more general
merchandise than shown in the pictures, which don't really show the
second building's interior, but maybe the buildings are being sold
separately. I'm certainly disappointed that the proprietor retired and
nobody else wanted the business. The last time that I resupplied in
that village, I had to mail myself a box at the post office because
there was nowhere to buy provisions. (I don't like to depend on
hitchhiking for resupply.)

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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Philip Barnes
On Mon, 2019-03-25 at 13:57 -0400, Kevin Kenny wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 11:44 AM Mateusz Konieczny
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > My conclusion is that this is an old shop type, currently getting
> > rare but there are still some valid uses
> > but many cases would benefit from retagging to more popular shop
> > values
> > (where shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store describes it
> > well).
>
> General stores, while not as common as they once were, still exist in
> the rural communities that I visit - so please don't deprecate the
> tag!
>
> They often function as grocery stores, but also will generally offer
> tools and hardware, clothing, home goods, camping supplies, bait and
> tackle, dry goods, and paper goods - pretty much a little bit of
> everything, albeit with a more limited selection than you'd find at a
> store in a larger town. The wide offering of general merchandise
> distinguishes them from 'supermarket'. The small size and relatively
> limited selection distinguish them from supermarket (also, not all
> general stores sell perishable food). They're a lot more than a
> convenience_store; they're typically the main or only store in the
> village. They're surely not a variety_store, and are often overpriced
> because many nowadays cater to tourists. (The villagers might drive
> to
> the nearest sizable towm to shop.)
Much the same in the UK, as Kevin says please do not depreciate this
tag. It is never going to have the level of usage that city based tags
get.



>
> A country_store is something I think of as usually being located
> outside a village because they need a lot more space. They'll offer
> feed, seed, fertilizer, garden tools, and similar supplies. They
> often
> have nurseries selling bedding plants and trees for planting.
> (Tractor
> Supply and Agway are common brands in the US.)
Again much the same in the UK, the common big brands being Countrywide
and Wynstay.

They cater for country dwellers, small farms, equine people and sell
animal feeder and feed, gates and the like. Also horse feed and riding,
chicken equipment and pet food in larger packs. Country people have
more dogs.

The exact range will, my local Wynstay caters heavily for South
Cheshire and North Shropshire which are both lands of horse paddocks,
whereas on I visited in Llyn was much more for the local farmers.

These are a particular and important thing and should not be
depreciated or combined with some other type of shop.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Paul Allen


sent from a phone

> Am 25.03.2019 um 16:00 schrieb Paul Allen <[hidden email]>:
>
> I have to ask what purpose is served by deprecating general.  If it were an EXACT synonym of
> one of the other shop types then remove it.  But it's not.  There are a lot of grey areas in shop
> types, so it makes sense to leave it.  Otherwise we end up deciding whether we should force
> a triangular peg into a square hole or a round hole.


+1
general store seems to be a defined concept, surely different from convenience stores or supermarkets.

Ciao, Martin
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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes



Mar 25, 2019, 9:57 PM by [hidden email]:
On Mon, 2019-03-25 at 13:57 -0400, Kevin Kenny wrote:
On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 11:44 AM Mateusz Konieczny
> My conclusion is that this is an old shop type, currently getting
> rare but there are still some valid uses
> but many cases would benefit from retagging to more popular shop
> values
> (where shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store describes it
> well).

General stores, while not as common as they once were, still exist in
the rural communities that I visit - so please don't deprecate the
tag!

They often function as grocery stores, but also will generally offer
tools and hardware, clothing, home goods, camping supplies, bait and
tackle, dry goods, and paper goods - pretty much a little bit of
everything, albeit with a more limited selection than you'd find at a
store in a larger town. The wide offering of general merchandise
distinguishes them from 'supermarket'. The small size and relatively
limited selection distinguish them from supermarket (also, not all
general stores sell perishable food). They're a lot more than a
convenience_store; they're typically the main or only store in the
village. They're surely not a variety_store, and are often overpriced
because many nowadays cater to tourists. (The villagers might drive
to
the nearest sizable towm to shop.)
Much the same in the UK, as Kevin says please do not depreciate this
tag. It is never going to have the level of usage that city based tags
get.
As mentioned, based on feedback here, I amended the OSM wiki page
to explain that there is some difference and that there are shops that require this
shop type.

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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Kevin Kenny-3


sent from a phone

Am 25.03.2019 um 18:57 schrieb Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]>:

A country_store is something I think of as usually being located
outside a village because they need a lot more space. They'll offer
feed, seed, fertilizer, garden tools, and similar supplies. They often
have nurseries selling bedding plants and trees for planting. (Tractor
Supply and Agway are common brands in the US.)

there is also


and 

the wiki mentions shoes and clothing for country stores, which you won’t find in the above shops, so it seems a good distinction. 
Is it self service or are there salespeople to serve you? Or could it be both?

Cheers, Martin 







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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Kevin Kenny-3
On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 7:45 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 25.03.2019 um 18:57 schrieb Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]>:
>
> A country_store is something I think of as usually being located
> outside a village because they need a lot more space. They'll offer
> feed, seed, fertilizer, garden tools, and similar supplies. They often
> have nurseries selling bedding plants and trees for planting. (Tractor
> Supply and Agway are common brands in the US.)
>
>
> there is also
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgarden_centre
>
> and
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dagrarian
>
> the wiki mentions shoes and clothing for country stores, which you won’t find in the above shops, so it seems a good distinction.
> Is it self service or are there salespeople to serve you? Or could it be both?

I'll bear that in mind the next time I'm tagging one.  The point that
I was trying to make was that none of the above is what is meant by
'general store'.

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Re: Is there any use of shop=general/general_store not covered by shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store?

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
> My conclusion is that this is an old shop type, currently getting rare but there are still some valid uses
> but many cases would benefit from retagging to more popular shop values
> (where shop=convenience/supermarket/country_store describes it well).

Please add https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dvariety_store as well.
The only store that is mapped as "general" in a 20 km radius from me,
seems to be a variety store (only cheap stuff, clothes, toys, office
material, etc.)

m.

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