Jewelry/jewellery shops

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Jewelry/jewellery shops

Matthijs Melissen
Hi all,

We currently use British English for almost all OSM tags. Jewellery
shops however are typically tagged with the American English variant
shop=jewelry (20083 occurrences), and hardly ever with the British
English variant shop=jewellery (187 occurrences). Editors and data
consumers only support the American variant.

Some mappers have proposed switching to the British English version.
I'm not sure if that's really is a good idea. It wouldn't be an easy
task, as it would require synchronisation between mappers, editors and
data consumers. The gain would be fairly minor and the disadvantages
rather large: all data consumers that handle jewellery shops would be
required to update their code. On the other hand, maybe it makes sense
to try anyway.

If we decide to accept the tag shop=jewellery and mark shop=jewelry as
discouraged, we should have at least a good plan. Without plan,
nothing will happen, as mappers don't want to use unsupported tags,
and data consumers don't want to support unused tags. Of course we
can't decide what editors/data consumers should do. However, we could
come up with a recommendation, and hope editors/data consumers are
willing to follow it. An example plan/procedure could look as follows:

Editors:
- The first 6 months after acceptance of the proposal to switch,
editors should keep producing the old tag shop=jewelry only. This
gives data consumers time to make arrangements to support the new tag.
- The following 3 months, editors might either produce shop=jewelry or
shop=jewellery.
- After 9 months from acceptance of the proposal, editors should only
produce shop=jewellery.

Data consumers:
- Within 6 months after the acceptance of the proposal, data consumers
should accept shop=jewellery in addition to shop=jewelry.
- When usage of shop=jewelry has declined sufficiently, data consumers
can stop supporting shop=jewelry. This is not expected within 12
months after acceptance of the proposal, and likely much later.

Data:
- The first 6 months after acceptance of the proposal, the data should
remain unchanged.
- After 6 months, the amount of shop=jewelry tags is expected to
decline in favour of shop=jewellery tags. It is hard to predict how
long this process will take.

Wiki:
- 6 months after the acceptance of the proposal, shop=jewellery should
be marked as recommended tag.
- 9 months after the acceptance of the proposal, shop=jewelry should
be marked as discouraged.

As you can see, this is not a simple proposal. There are also some
risks involved, for example because it is unclear whether data
consumers and editors would be willing to follow the recommendations.

All in all, it is a fairly large operation for a relatively small
improvement, and I'm not sure if it's worth it. I wonder though what
other mappers think. Would it make sense to switch the recommended tag
to shop=jewellery? And if we do so, would a plan similarly to the one
above make sense?

(Please note that I'm writing this on personal title and not as
maintainer of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet.)

-- Matthijs

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Re: Jewelry/jewellery shops

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> Am 13.01.2016 um 23:46 schrieb Matthijs Melissen <[hidden email]>:
>
> All in all, it is a fairly large operation for a relatively small
> improvement, and I'm not sure if it's worth it.


I support the idea of changing it and think the transition plan you propose could work out. It might not seem a big deal to have some odd American English orthography among the tags, but it really introduces an inconsistency that might lead to more analogous cases, and in the end tagging becomes more complicated for everyone if you can't be sure anymore which writing variant is the valid one without looking it up.

Similar cases in the past have been drive-through (vs. drive thru), kerb vs. curb and various kinds of centres/centers, all of which are now established with their BE orthography.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: Jewelry/jewellery shops

Mateusz Konieczny-2
In reply to this post by Matthijs Melissen
On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 23:46:48 +0100
Matthijs Melissen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> All in all, it is a fairly large operation for a relatively small
> improvement, and I'm not sure if it's worth it. I wonder though what
> other mappers think. Would it make sense to switch the recommended tag
> to shop=jewellery? And if we do so, would a plan similarly to the one
> above make sense?

It is quite long, but not so large. The most complex part is that
somebody need to set up reminder to execute later parts of plan.

I would strongly support this change - consistent tagging is a good
thing.

(I'm also writing this on personal title and not as
maintainer of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet.)

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Re: Jewelry/jewellery shops

Eugene Alvin Villar
I disagree. As mentioned, there seems to be little improvement given
the rather large effort required. I prefer we spend the effort doing
other more impactful changes.

And unlike other inconsistent cases of tagging, I don't think there is
any confusion on what shop=jewelry means.

As I understand it, using British English is just a convention and a
recommendation for people considering new tags. It is not policy.

On 1/14/16, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 23:46:48 +0100
> Matthijs Melissen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> All in all, it is a fairly large operation for a relatively small
>> improvement, and I'm not sure if it's worth it. I wonder though what
>> other mappers think. Would it make sense to switch the recommended tag
>> to shop=jewellery? And if we do so, would a plan similarly to the one
>> above make sense?
>
> It is quite long, but not so large. The most complex part is that
> somebody need to set up reminder to execute later parts of plan.
>
> I would strongly support this change - consistent tagging is a good
> thing.
>
> (I'm also writing this on personal title and not as
> maintainer of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: Jewelry/jewellery shops

Warin
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-2
On 14/01/2016 10:41 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 23:46:48 +0100
> Matthijs Melissen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> All in all, it is a fairly large operation for a relatively small
>> improvement, and I'm not sure if it's worth it. I wonder though what
>> other mappers think. Would it make sense to switch the recommended tag
>> to shop=jewellery? And if we do so, would a plan similarly to the one
>> above make sense?
> It is quite long, but not so large. The most complex part is that
> somebody need to set up reminder to execute later parts of plan.
>
> I would strongly support this change - consistent tagging is a good
> thing.

+1

I note the tag was
  never 'approved'.
has had some discussion on the spelling aspect

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:shop%3Djewelry   dates from
2010.

 From that discussion there needs to be
a new wiki page shop=jewellery ... probably vote on it (as a new
proposal) and get it approved (hopefully).. that can happen fairly quickly.
then get shop=jewelry depreciated.  This too can happen fairly quickly
after the jewellery value is approved.

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Re: Jewelry/jewellery shops

Stephan Knauss
In reply to this post by Matthijs Melissen
On 13.01.2016 23:46, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> We currently use British English for almost all OSM tags. Jewellery
> shops however are typically tagged with the American English variant
> shop=jewelry (20083 occurrences), and hardly ever with the British
> English variant shop=jewellery (187 occurrences). Editors and data
> consumers only support the American variant.

so I propose to accept it as it is. It is accepted tagging. Keep in mind
that we don't have any formal "approval" process for tagging. If
something is in active use then it is considered approved.

The benefit to have any different spelling is small to non-existent.

Situation would be different if it would cause conflicts or
misinterpretation (think of the "gym" tagging). But here I don't see any
such conflict.

And as others already mentioned: It is recommended to use, BE, not required.

Stephan


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Re: Jewelry/jewellery shops

Marc Gemis
On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Stephan Knauss <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 13.01.2016 23:46, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>
>> We currently use British English for almost all OSM tags. Jewellery
>> shops however are typically tagged with the American English variant
>> shop=jewelry (20083 occurrences), and hardly ever with the British
>> English variant shop=jewellery (187 occurrences). Editors and data
>> consumers only support the American variant.
>
>
> so I propose to accept it as it is. It is accepted tagging. Keep in mind
> that we don't have any formal "approval" process for tagging. If something
> is in active use then it is considered approved.
>
> The benefit to have any different spelling is small to non-existent.
>
> Situation would be different if it would cause conflicts or
> misinterpretation (think of the "gym" tagging). But here I don't see any
> such conflict.
>
> And as others already mentioned: It is recommended to use, BE, not required.
>

+1 to accept the current tagging. Please do not bother our data
consumers with a change. No need to repeat the sub_station/substation
story again.

Many non-English mappers don't see this inconsistency between BE and
AE. They use a UI in their own language. In Dutch you add a "juwelier"
and never care about the key-value pair that gets added.
It's a "problem" for more advanced mappers that add the key-value pair
themselves.

reagrds

m

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Re: Jewelry/jewellery shops

dieterdreist

2016-01-14 9:24 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
+1 to accept the current tagging. Please do not bother our data
consumers with a change. No need to repeat the sub_station/substation
story again.


please note that this is not similar to the power=sub_station / substation change, because here we are just discussing to bring more consistency into the spelling of the tags, while substation is a replacement for (some?) sub_station and power=station how it was used before (station was used for distribution substations, not for power stations).

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Jewelry/jewellery shops

Marc Gemis
I know it is about consistency, but for a data consumer that does not
matter, they still have to cope with the change in exactly the same
way as for  power=sub_station -> power=substation. (which is also a
matter of consistency).
No gain and a lot of pain :-)

IMHO instead of discussing this issue, we should go out and do
something useful: add something to the map :-)

regards

m



On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> 2016-01-14 9:24 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> +1 to accept the current tagging. Please do not bother our data
>> consumers with a change. No need to repeat the sub_station/substation
>> story again.
>
>
>
> please note that this is not similar to the power=sub_station / substation
> change, because here we are just discussing to bring more consistency into
> the spelling of the tags, while substation is a replacement for (some?)
> sub_station and power=station how it was used before (station was used for
> distribution substations, not for power stations).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: Jewelry/jewellery shops

malenki
In reply to this post by Stephan Knauss
Am Thu, 14 Jan 2016 08:33:55 +0100
schrieb Stephan Knauss
<[hidden email]>:

> On 13.01.2016 23:46, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> > We currently use British English for almost all OSM tags. Jewellery
> > shops however are typically tagged with the American English variant
> > shop=jewelry (20083 occurrences), and hardly ever with the British
> > English variant shop=jewellery (187 occurrences). Editors and data
> > consumers only support the American variant.  
>
> so I propose to accept it as it is. It is accepted tagging. Keep in
> mind that we don't have any formal "approval" process for tagging. If
> something is in active use then it is considered approved.
>
> The benefit to have any different spelling is small to non-existent.

+1

A change would cause a lot of work for a very small gain, if any.

Regards
Thomas


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Re: Jewelry/jewellery shops

malenki
In reply to this post by Warin
Am Thu, 14 Jan 2016 11:32:56 +1100
schrieb Warin <[hidden email]>:

> I note the tag was
> never 'approved'.
> has had some discussion on the spelling aspect

Just a side note:
I'd assume that most of the major tags like highway=* never got
proposed nor voted on.

And seeing that maybe 30 to maximum 100 people do vote on a proposal
this is a minor minority compared to the active users per month (iirc
~30.000)

my 2 cents
Thomas


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