[Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

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[Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Tagging mailing list
I want to change the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
to do certain things:
  - Deprecating `contact:phone`
  - Promoting `phone`
  - Extending `phone`
  - Protecting the wiki page against "wild changes" in the interest of
the community (to maintain a consistent use of `phone` because as one
of the most used keys on OSM we cannot use `phone` differently or not
following the specification at all. We simply cannot do that because
apps working this that key need a consistent tagging scheme.)

But before I do that, I will hear your voices. I included a Markdown
file with this e-mail and want to know what you think. Is there a
possibility to use Markdown in our wiki or to convert Markdown into
wiki formatting?

Cheerio

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram

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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Mateusz Konieczny-3
21 Sep 2019, 20:49 by [hidden email]:
I want to change the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
to do certain things:
- Deprecating `contact:phone`
- Promoting `phone`
- Extending `phone`
- Protecting the wiki page against "wild changes"
I would strongly recommend proposing
this changes separately.

Otherwise person against just one 
change will be forced to be against
all of them.

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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Markus-5
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
On Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 20:51 Valor Naram via Tagging, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I want to change the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
to do certain things:
  - Deprecating `contact:phone`

What about the other less frequently used duplicates contact:website, contact:email and contact:fax? Wouldn't it make more sense to deprecate them all instead of just one?

Is there a possibility to use Markdown in our wiki

None that i know of.

or to convert Markdown into
wiki formatting?

https://pandoc.org, according to its homepage, but i've not tried it myself.

Regards,
Markus

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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Tagging mailing list
> What about the other less frequently used duplicates contact:website, contact:email and contact:fax? Wouldn't it make more sense to deprecate them all instead of just one?

At least `contact:email` will come. I prefer to work step for step.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing
From: Markus
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:


On Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 20:51 Valor Naram via Tagging, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I want to change the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
to do certain things:
  - Deprecating `contact:phone`

What about the other less frequently used duplicates contact:website, contact:email and contact:fax? Wouldn't it make more sense to deprecate them all instead of just one?

Is there a possibility to use Markdown in our wiki

None that i know of.

or to convert Markdown into
wiki formatting?

https://pandoc.org, according to its homepage, but i've not tried it myself.

Regards,
Markus

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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Andy Mabbett
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
On Sat, 21 Sep 2019 at 19:49, Valor Naram via Tagging
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I want to change the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
> to do certain things:

>   - Protecting the wiki page against "wild changes"

We generally do not protect Wiki pages unless they are the target of
persistent or egregious vandalism.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Andy Townsend
On 22/09/2019 11:20, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Sep 2019 at 19:49, Valor Naram via Tagging
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I want to change the wiki page
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
>> to do certain things:
>>    - Protecting the wiki page against "wild changes"
> We generally do not protect Wiki pages unless they are the target of
> persistent or egregious vandalism.

Well, sort-of - what tends to happen is that pages that "really
shouldn't be modified" tend to get moved elsewhere.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy is an example of
that.  There are some things that OSM's wiki really isn't the
appropriate place for.

Best Regards,

Andy

PS: For the avoidance of doubt I'm not suggesting that such a move would
make sense here.



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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Tim Magee
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 2:49:28 PM EDT Valor Naram via Tagging wrote:
> I want to change the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
> to do certain things:
>   - Deprecating `contact:phone`
I disagree with this idea. I believe that contact:phone is superior to phone.
This way, all contact information is in its own namespace rather than being
top level tags. Even though currently the prefixed contact* tags are in the
minority, I believe that long term they are better.
>   - Promoting `phone`
>   - Extending `phone`
I would propose that rather we extend contact:phone.

> But before I do that, I will hear your voices. I included a Markdown
> file with this e-mail and want to know what you think.
I think that adding country tagged phone numbers seems like a good idea. As
does phone:emergency. I think phone:night and phone:press are getting too off
topic (so I wouldn't tag them).

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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

websites@posteo.de
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
As a heavy user of the contact:*=* scheme I do not see an advantage to
mark it as deprecated.

At least not as long as we do not have a proper way to tag multiple
kinds of phone numbers and are dealing with non-sense like phone_2=*,
phone_3=* etc automatically generated by the iD editor.

One frequent use case I run into is the distinction of landline phone
numbers and mobile phone numbers. The latter can be tagged by using
contact:mobile=* which is also properly used by data users like OsmAnd.
In my eyes even contact:website=* is not necessarily illogical as many
websites provide means to get in contact with the POI.

All the best,

highflyer74

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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

voschix
Distinction between landline and mobile is technical, and often not clear.
You cannot always distinguish mobile numbers form landline numbers by their numbering scheme.
In the US here is no distinction as far as I am aware anyway.
Here in Italy you may dial a number that looks like a landline but is in reality a mobile number.
I would very much prefer a list of numbers, and not have to do tricks like phone_1, phone_2 ... but also not to have to specify if a number is mobile or landline.

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, 23 Sep 2019 at 16:12, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a heavy user of the contact:*=* scheme I do not see an advantage to
mark it as deprecated.

At least not as long as we do not have a proper way to tag multiple
kinds of phone numbers and are dealing with non-sense like phone_2=*,
phone_3=* etc automatically generated by the iD editor.

One frequent use case I run into is the distinction of landline phone
numbers and mobile phone numbers. The latter can be tagged by using
contact:mobile=* which is also properly used by data users like OsmAnd.
In my eyes even contact:website=* is not necessarily illogical as many
websites provide means to get in contact with the POI.

All the best,

highflyer74

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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by websites@posteo.de
On Mon, 23 Sep 2019 at 15:12, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

In my eyes even contact:website=* is not necessarily illogical as many
websites provide means to get in contact with the POI.

Assuming you mean a contact form, as opposed to a web page giving phone number,
e-mail address, and maybe physical address, then I'd suggest contact:url=* would be
better.  I probably wouldn't use it myself, just give a website=* in most cases, but if I
did come across a case where it would be useful then I'd use contact:url not
contact:website.

--
Paul


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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by voschix


sent from a phone

> On 23. Sep 2019, at 16:19, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Here in Italy you may dial a number that looks like a landline but is in reality a mobile number.
> I would very much prefer a list of numbers, and not have to do tricks like phone_1, phone_2 ... but also not to have to specify if a number is mobile or landline.


+1,
with phone numbers you can currently still see how it used to work in the analog times (e.g. shops in the same area still have mostly the same initial local digits), but these are clearly traces of the past that will sooner or later vanish, with modern equipment you can have (at least theoretically) any number routed anywhere. For example SIP based phone numbers often look like local numbers of a specific area, but in fact are routed via the internet and the actually connected device could be anywhere on earth.

Cheers Martin



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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Tagging mailing list
So the distinction of mobile and landline is a problem. Is there any possibility to distinct between landline and mobile also in Italy?

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:




sent from a phone

> On 23. Sep 2019, at 16:19, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>
> Here in Italy you may dial a number that looks like a landline but is in reality a mobile number.
> I would very much prefer a list of numbers, and not have to do tricks like phone_1, phone_2 ... but also not to have to specify if a number is mobile or landline.


+1,
with phone numbers you can currently still see how it used to work in the analog times (e.g. shops in the same area still have mostly the same initial local digits), but these are clearly traces of the past that will sooner or later vanish, with modern equipment you can have (at least theoretically) any number routed anywhere. For example SIP based phone numbers often look like local numbers of a specific area, but in fact are routed via the internet and the actually connected device could be anywhere on earth.

Cheers Martin



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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Colin Smale

On 2019-09-24 13:15, Valor Naram via Tagging wrote:

So the distinction of mobile and landline is a problem. Is there any possibility to distinct between landline and mobile also in Italy?

I don't understand why it would be necessary to make that distinction. What I want to know, is which number do I use to contact "party X". Nobody knows or cares these days which physical telephone rings when you dial a number.



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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Some people are still paranoid about not ringing mobiles as it will "cost too much".

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 at 22:05, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2019-09-24 13:15, Valor Naram via Tagging wrote:

So the distinction of mobile and landline is a problem. Is there any possibility to distinct between landline and mobile also in Italy?

I don't understand why it would be necessary to make that distinction. What I want to know, is which number do I use to contact "party X". Nobody knows or cares these days which physical telephone rings when you dial a number.


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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Joseph Eisenberg
Also you can text message (SMS) a mobile phone, but not a landline, in
most cases. But perhaps this could be better distinguished with a
different tag?

On 9/25/19, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Some people are still paranoid about not ringing mobiles as it will "cost
> too much".
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 at 22:05, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 2019-09-24 13:15, Valor Naram via Tagging wrote:
>>
>> So the distinction of mobile and landline is a problem. Is there any
>> possibility to distinct between landline and mobile also in Italy?
>>
>> I don't understand why it would be necessary to make that distinction.
>> What I want to know, is which number do I use to contact "party X".
>> Nobody
>> knows or cares these days which physical telephone rings when you dial a
>> number.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>

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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

dieterdreist
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Am Di., 24. Sept. 2019 um 13:17 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
So the distinction of mobile and landline is a problem. Is there any possibility to distinct between landline and mobile also in Italy?


I don't see the problem, can you explain? By the way, this is not about Italy. In Germany [1] and likely in many other places you can also get your landline number on a mobile phone. I'm using a German landline number for almost 20 years on my desktop and for 10 years on my mobile. It is not new technology, and it can be used everywhere, not just in Italy. Another possibility would be call redirect. No way to tell where a number will be routed to (if you aren't a telco).




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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Paul Allen
On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 09:04, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't see the problem, can you explain?

[Note: some simplifications ahead.  Broadly true but there are many exceptions in
reality.]

In the UK, calling rom landlines, calls to mobile numbers are more expensive than calls
to landlines.  These days, not by much but in the past the difference was large.  BT's prices are
a 23p call setup charge then 15p/minute to landlines and 18p/minute to mobiles.  Unless you
have one of their packages that give you free calls to landlines (not even a setup charge) but
9p/minute to mobiles (with the 23p setup).

There are no guarantees that this won't change in the future:  Maybe for the better, maybe for the
worse.

If you're calling from a mobile phone then the charging situation is complex.  Depending on
which MNO or MVNO you're using, it may be very complex (although it's not as bad as it used
to be).  Generally it has been the case in the past that if you were calling from a mobile it was
cheaper to call another mobile than a landline,  These days there's either no difference or
it's small, but that could change.

Fortunately, in the UK, mobile numbers start with a 7 and non-mobile numbers do not (other
potentially-expensive calls have different prefixes).

The situation is different elsewhere in the world, of course.  In the US it's the callee, not
the caller, who pays the call charges for calls to mobiles.  Oh the joys of living in a country
where you not only get junk advertising calls on your mobile, but you have to pay to receive
them.

By the way, this is not about Italy. In Germany [1] and likely in many other places you can also get your landline number on a mobile phone. I'm using a German landline number for almost 20 years on my desktop and for 10 years on my mobile. It is not new technology, and it can be used everywhere, not just in Italy.  Another possibility would be call redirect. No way to tell where a number will be routed to (if you aren't a telco).

Number remapping, of one form or another, has been around for a long time.  But 20 years ago
it was expensive and rare.  After regulations requiring number portability for mobile owners
switching between carriers, the technology became cheaper to implement.  I'm not sure if UK
companies offer anything other than redirection when it comes to terminating a landline on a
mobile or a mobile on a landline but if they do I'd expect call charges to be appropriate to
the number prefix.

So people do find it useful to know if a phone number is to a landline or a mobile.  Less so
than in the past, because the cost difference is smaller, but still useful.  However, in the UK
we can tell by inspecting the number: if it starts with a 7 it's a mobile.  So in the UK we don't
need a tag to tell us.  This isn't true of all countries: in the US you can't tell if you're calling
a landline or a mobile, but you don't care because the person receiving the call is paying.

--
Paul


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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Valor Naram
So we're good to keep `phone:mobile` for mappers who know if the number is a mobile one or landline.

We can keep `phone:mobile` for explicit ones where you can say to 100% this is a mobile phone number and will be *generally* charged as such.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram

PS: Don't be confused. I do not even bother, if we differenciate between mobile numbers and landlines or not.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing
From: Paul Allen
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:


On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 09:04, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't see the problem, can you explain?

[Note: some simplifications ahead.  Broadly true but there are many exceptions in
reality.]

In the UK, calling rom landlines, calls to mobile numbers are more expensive than calls
to landlines.  These days, not by much but in the past the difference was large.  BT's prices are
a 23p call setup charge then 15p/minute to landlines and 18p/minute to mobiles.  Unless you
have one of their packages that give you free calls to landlines (not even a setup charge) but
9p/minute to mobiles (with the 23p setup).

There are no guarantees that this won't change in the future:  Maybe for the better, maybe for the
worse.

If you're calling from a mobile phone then the charging situation is complex.  Depending on
which MNO or MVNO you're using, it may be very complex (although it's not as bad as it used
to be).  Generally it has been the case in the past that if you were calling from a mobile it was
cheaper to call another mobile than a landline,  These days there's either no difference or
it's small, but that could change.

Fortunately, in the UK, mobile numbers start with a 7 and non-mobile numbers do not (other
potentially-expensive calls have different prefixes).

The situation is different elsewhere in the world, of course.  In the US it's the callee, not
the caller, who pays the call charges for calls to mobiles.  Oh the joys of living in a country
where you not only get junk advertising calls on your mobile, but you have to pay to receive
them.

By the way, this is not about Italy. In Germany [1] and likely in many other places you can also get your landline number on a mobile phone. I'm using a German landline number for almost 20 years on my desktop and for 10 years on my mobile. It is not new technology, and it can be used everywhere, not just in Italy.  Another possibility would be call redirect. No way to tell where a number will be routed to (if you aren't a telco).

Number remapping, of one form or another, has been around for a long time.  But 20 years ago
it was expensive and rare.  After regulations requiring number portability for mobile owners
switching between carriers, the technology became cheaper to implement.  I'm not sure if UK
companies offer anything other than redirection when it comes to terminating a landline on a
mobile or a mobile on a landline but if they do I'd expect call charges to be appropriate to
the number prefix.

So people do find it useful to know if a phone number is to a landline or a mobile.  Less so
than in the past, because the cost difference is smaller, but still useful.  However, in the UK
we can tell by inspecting the number: if it starts with a 7 it's a mobile.  So in the UK we don't
need a tag to tell us.  This isn't true of all countries: in the US you can't tell if you're calling
a landline or a mobile, but you don't care because the person receiving the call is paying.

--
Paul


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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
Am Mi., 25. Sept. 2019 um 14:10 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen <[hidden email]>:
On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 09:04, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't see the problem, can you explain?

[Note: some simplifications ahead.  Broadly true but there are many exceptions in
reality.]

In the UK, calling rom landlines, calls to mobile numbers are more expensive than calls
to landlines.  These days, not by much but in the past the difference was large.  BT's prices are
a 23p call setup charge then 15p/minute to landlines and 18p/minute to mobiles.  Unless you
have one of their packages that give you free calls to landlines (not even a setup charge) but
9p/minute to mobiles (with the 23p setup).



right, you might be charged differently according to your plan / the kind of device you are calling from. There may be also more distinctions (e.g. local numbers cheaper), so should we distinguish between the number and the area code? (somehow we are doing it with spaces, but it is not applied consistently). What about different numbers which could imply extra costs (or be free), shall we use different keys for them?



 
There are no guarantees that this won't change in the future:  Maybe for the better, maybe for the
worse.


I wouldn't be too afraid, IMHO it is likely that these 20th century billing habits will vanish sooner or later in favor of an all in subscription model. Around here you already get a flat rate towards all Italian and European mobiles and landlines (incl. 50GB 4G Internet and SMS) for as low as 8 EUR / month. It's more likely you won't bother in the future about the kind of phone number you're calling, rather than it could be a costly surprise.

 Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

Paul Allen
On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 14:30, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


right, you might be charged differently according to your plan / the kind of device you are calling from. There may be also more distinctions (e.g. local numbers cheaper),

Yep.  All those things and more.  Scott Adams (the Dilbert cartoonist) jokingly (or perhaps he
wasn't joking) described these things as constituting a "confusopoly."  It's too difficult to figure
out which provider is going to work out cheapest for your particular pattern of usage, so most
people never switch providers.
 
so should we distinguish between the number and the area code? (somehow we are doing it with spaces, but it is not applied consistently).

I suspect that in those countries where the area code makes a difference to the charges then
most mappers will apply spaces consistently and where the area code makes no difference
they may not bother.

What about different numbers which could imply extra costs (or be free), shall we use different keys for them?

In the UK, people can tell that from the area code.  Except BT did a mini-confusopoly there and
so we have 0800 and 0808 are freephone, 084 are special rate, 087 are expensive special
rate, 0900 are arm-and-a-leg expensive special rate.  All with (mainly grandfathered) exceptions
and qualifiers.  Oh, and 0800/0808 freephone applied only to calls from landlines until regulations
forcing it upon mobile calls appeared in 2015.  It's messy but (theoretically) can be determined
solely from the area code.  Except most people can't remember which 08xx are free and which
08xx are special rate.
 
There are no guarantees that this won't change in the future:  Maybe for the better, maybe for the
worse.

I wouldn't be too afraid, IMHO it is likely that these 20th century billing habits will vanish sooner or later in favor of an all in subscription model.

Many decades ago, there was no call setup charge for calls from UK landlines.  And, given the
switch from clunky relays with a shorter life to purely electronic switching with a longer life I
see no technical justification for one.  It's all about the money.  It's always about the money.
Similarly, call boxes used to be "put in a certain amount of money to get a few minutes,"
now you have to put in enough money for an hour, even for a one-minute call.  It's all about the
money.  It's always about the money.

So there may be harmonization in some of the charges, but it will come at a cost and most
likely with complexity elsewhere in a bewildering variety of packages available.  If it suits them
to make a distinction between landline and mobile, that's what they will do.  It's a distinction
that most people can understand and will accept, whereas having a higher rate to trombone
around a wide estuary (which used to be the case in the UK decades ago) is not something
that is easily understood (it was a regional call rather than a local call because they couldn't
run the lines straight across the estuary, even if they actually could and did).
 
Around here you already get a flat rate towards all Italian and European mobiles and landlines (incl. 50GB 4G Internet and SMS) for as low as 8 EUR / month. It's more likely you won't bother in the future about the kind of phone number you're calling, rather than it could be a costly surprise.

Technically, you're right, the actual costs to the operators will be very similar.  In practice,
people understand that landlines and mobiles are different things and are more accepting
of price differentials.  If harmonization comes it will be through legislation, not because the
operators want to serve their customers' best interests.  I think it more likely that things will
get better rather than worse, but I can't guarantee it.  And that's only the UK, the situation in
other countries may be very different.

--
Paul


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