Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
13 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

Jack Burke-2
I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do about this.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/

--jack

--
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology
_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

Andrew Matheny
I believe the affected streets would just need a conditional access tag, no?

Something like:

access:conditional=destination @ (06:00-10:00; 16:00-21:00)

Thanks,

Andrew

On Jan 8, 2018 12:55 PM, "Jack Burke" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do about this.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/

--jack

--
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us



_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

stevea
In reply to this post by Jack Burke-2
First, as they are public (not private) streets, anybody has the right to traverse them.  Yes, a local ordinance might (in the near future) prohibit access for "cut-through," it is the right of the municipality to pass such an ordinance and for local police to enforce it.  "We don't want the mappers to put these data into their maps and navigation apps" simply isn't going to happen, as we (mappers) are not going to be "muzzled:"  these are real data in the real world.  Censorship is not the answer, rather it is proper tagging which feeds routing algorithms.

I might suggest a solution OSM might consider can be to tag access=destination and/or residential=living_street.  There might also be a note tag briefly explaining the local ordinance which gives rise to such a local preponderance of access tags.  But the streets should not "be deleted" as the mayor and residents wish.  With the right tags, the apps' routing algorithms won't include these streets, and the problem (as it is perceived as coming from "navigation apps") is effectively solved.

SteveA
California
_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

Rihards
In reply to this post by Andrew Matheny
On 2018.01.08. 21:07, Andrew Matheny wrote:
> I believe the affected streets would just need a conditional access tag, no?
>
> Something like:
>
> access:conditional=destination @ (06:00-10:00; 16:00-21:00)

are there matching street signs ?
of course, a better approach would be adding traffic calming features or
making roads one-way so that cut-through would not be beneficial much.
the reporting segment did not portray the local govt as being very
competent.

> Thanks,
>
> Andrew
>
> On Jan 8, 2018 12:55 PM, "Jack Burke" <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do
>     about this.
>
>     http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/
>     <http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/>
>
>     --jack
>
>     --
>     Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology
...
--
 Rihards

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

Mike N.
In reply to this post by stevea
On 1/8/2018 2:17 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:
> I might suggest a solution OSM might consider can be to tag access=destination and/or residential=living_street.

  From the video, they're definitely not living_street, so most likely
access=destination.

But the streets should not "be deleted" as the mayor and residents wish.

    The 'deleted' term is likely a casual way to phrase "remove from
through-routing", and they're not really seeking blank maps for their
region.

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

Andrew Matheny
In reply to this post by Rihards
>are there matching street signs ?

I'm not sure. But if we know a street has legally-restricted access, I think our tagging should match that access regardless of whether there's a sign or not. 

Example: Service roads inside an apartment complex (usually tagged "access=private") are an example of tagging access without a sign.

If anything, I'm betting they'll have signs posted on the unaffected major streets at city limits, which is where you'll often see signs about cell phone usage while driving or red light cameras.

>of course, a better approach would be adding traffic calming features or
making roads one-way so that cut-through would not be beneficial much.

Respectfully, I don't think mapping features that don't actually exist is a good practice in the long-run. 

I think a conditional access tag is the best way to go here, since it's the only one that will restrict access according to the city's ordinance.

Thanks,

Andrew

On Jan 8, 2018 1:28 PM, "Rihards" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On <a href="tel:2018.01.08.%2021" value="+12018010821">2018.01.08. 21:07, Andrew Matheny wrote:
> I believe the affected streets would just need a conditional access tag, no?
>
> Something like:
>
> access:conditional=destination @ (06:00-10:00; 16:00-21:00)

are there matching street signs ?
of course, a better approach would be adding traffic calming features or
making roads one-way so that cut-through would not be beneficial much.
the reporting segment did not portray the local govt as being very
competent.

> Thanks,
>
> Andrew
>
> On Jan 8, 2018 12:55 PM, "Jack Burke" <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do
>     about this.
>
>     http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/
>     <http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/>
>
>     --jack
>
>     --
>     Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology
...
--
 Rihards


_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

Rihards
On 2018.01.08. 21:42, Andrew Matheny wrote:
>>are there matching street signs ?
>
> I'm not sure. But if we know a street has legally-restricted access, I
> think our tagging should match that access regardless of whether there's
> a sign or not.

yeah, my question was exactly about this - how is this legally codified ?
if they intend to rely on stopping random people and asking "WHAT
BUSINESS YOU HAVE HERE", it will stop soon.

> Example: Service roads inside an apartment complex (usually tagged
> "access=private") are an example of tagging access without a sign.

these are public streets, though

> If anything, I'm betting they'll have signs posted on the unaffected
> major streets at city limits, which is where you'll often see signs
> about cell phone usage while driving or red light cameras.

sorry, did you mean "affected" ?

>>of course, a better approach would be adding traffic calming features or
> making roads one-way so that cut-through would not be beneficial much.
>
> Respectfully, I don't think mapping features that don't actually exist
> is a good practice in the long-run.

should have been more specific. i believe the city should have
rearranged the traffic flow that would still be useful to the locals,
but make it less attractive for shortcuts, not that we should introduce
fake data :)

> I think a conditional access tag is the best way to go here, since it's
> the only one that will restrict access according to the city's ordinance.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrew
>
> On Jan 8, 2018 1:28 PM, "Rihards" <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On 2018.01.08. 21 <tel:2018.01.08.%2021>:07, Andrew Matheny wrote:
>     > I believe the affected streets would just need a conditional
>     access tag, no?
>     >
>     > Something like:
>     >
>     > access:conditional=destination @ (06:00-10:00; 16:00-21:00)
>
>     are there matching street signs ?
>     of course, a better approach would be adding traffic calming features or
>     making roads one-way so that cut-through would not be beneficial much.
>     the reporting segment did not portray the local govt as being very
>     competent.
>
>     > Thanks,
>     >
>     > Andrew
>     >
>     > On Jan 8, 2018 12:55 PM, "Jack Burke" <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     > <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do
>     >     about this.
>     >
>     >  
>      http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/
>     <http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/>
>     >  
>      <http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/
>     <http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/>>
>     >
>     >     --jack
>     >
>     >     --
>     >     Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology
>     ...
>     --
>      Rihards--
 Rihards

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

Mateusz Konieczny-2
In reply to this post by Jack Burke-2
On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:53:02 -0500
Jack Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do
> about this.

Tag traffic signs? It is not clear from article is it

- motor_vehicle=destination
- vehicle=destination
- toll=yes
- nothing, article is just misleading or incomplete

Or some of above combined with conditions.

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

stevea
In reply to this post by stevea
What most of us largely "know" (in this context, as we, myself included, posit both opinion and potential solutions) comes from a web-based news article.  It isn't clear to me that a local ordinance has already passed specifying "something."  Same with signs on-the-ground, speaking personally, I don't know.

We are a know-it, see-it, tag-it project.  Local knowledge is helpful and often preferred.  Please let those guide us here.

SteveA
California
_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[Imports-us] New to lists and would like to suggest some imports

stevea
I would add that the guidance of an OSM volunteer with some experience with importing can be quite helpful.

It is easy to be eager to complete an import.  It can be challenging, especially for novice mappers or those unexperienced with "medium-sized" projects like this to do one for the first time and get it completely right, very especially to "go it alone."  In the ham radio world, we would sometimes call such a person an "Elmer."  Often an older, calm, cool, collected, been-around-the-block sort of person who knows a couple of things about a couple of things and likes to help others solve problems that might crop up.

Seek some greater community and ask around of those who answer, listening to their experience with Mapping Parties or other imports.  Doing this simply strengthens our community.  Take your time, there is never any rush to import.  Quality above quantity or speed.

SteveA
California
_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

Paul Norman
In reply to this post by Jack Burke-2
On 1/8/2018 10:53 AM, Jack Burke wrote:
> I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do
> about this.
>
> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/

If they actually go through with it, access=destination on the
applicable streets, or motor_vehicle=destination if it's motor vehicles
only.

I think what they're doing is a bad idea and unlikely to achieve their
stated goals, but that's a problem of the city, not us. We just need to
map what they do accurately.

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

Jack Burke-2
Someone on the osmus Slack channel pointed out that this would affect routing for people who are in the town and want to go somewhere else in town, where that route wouldn't normally involve travelling on the major through roads.

-jack


On January 9, 2018 4:31:22 PM EST, Paul Norman <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 1/8/2018 10:53 AM, Jack Burke wrote:
I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do
about this.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/

If they actually go through with it, access=destination on the
applicable streets, or motor_vehicle=destination if it's motor vehicles
only.

I think what they're doing is a bad idea and unlikely to achieve their
stated goals, but that's a problem of the city, not us. We just need to
map what they do accurately.



Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

Mike N.
On 1/9/2018 8:47 PM, Jack Burke wrote:
> Someone on the osmus Slack channel pointed out that this would affect
> routing for people who are in the town and want to go somewhere else in
> town, where that route wouldn't normally involve travelling on the major
> through roads.

   I haven't thought through this, but wouldn't that be the same as
going down a road access=destination, then trying to find a new route
back out?   Otherwise they are heading to a destination in town, so it's
still access=destination.


_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us