Licence change - one month to go

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
28 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Licence change - one month to go

Richard Fairhurst
We change to the new licence in just under a month's time, so it's a
good time to look at the current state of the UK. What's likely not to
be carried through to the new database?

The good news is that the UK is in a very healthy state overall.  Just
under 99% of nodes will survive (98.68% according to odbl.poole.ch, and
there have been a couple of acceptances since then), 97.64% of highways,
and 99.48% of other ways.

But there are a few significant problem areas:

- NE Surrey/SW London
- Hertfordshire (Luton, Hemel etc.)
- the Wirral

There are also milder problems in Manchester, Coventry and Hampshire,
and, of course, isolated pockets here and there.

On the other hand, vast swathes of the country are almost unscathed:
Wales and Scotland are both in fine fettle, so too East Anglia, the
south Midlands and Cotswolds, Yorkshire and the North-East, the
South-West, the Marches.

Obviously a small number of people have made it clear that they do not
intend to agree to the new licence, and their work is lost to us. We are
continuing to try and contact those who have not yet indicated either
way, and have had some recent successes. But this is likely to be a game
of diminishing returns, and there are some people who are just
uncontactable - registered e-mail addresses at expired domains with no
other presence on the web, that sort of thing.

If you have some free time over the next few weeks, do go and remap. P2
and JOSM both have licence status displays. Bing and OS StreetView are
immensely useful resources (my P2 prefs have them assigned to function
keys F1 and F2 for easy reference). The 'BADMAP' layer on Cleanmap (see
below) is an easy way of discovering things that need fixing. It would
be good not to have any nasty surprises on 1st April. :)

Useful resources:

        http://cleanmap.poole.ch/ <-- see what's likely to be kept/lost
        http://url.ie/e717 <-- OSM Inspector licence-change view
        http://odbl.poole.ch/great_britain-20120213-20120229-poly.html <--
latest stats

cheers
Richard


_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Matt Williams-2
On 2 March 2012 14:35, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We change to the new licence in just under a month's time, so it's a good
> time to look at the current state of the UK. What's likely not to be carried
> through to the new database?
>
> The good news is that the UK is in a very healthy state overall.  Just under
> 99% of nodes will survive (98.68% according to odbl.poole.ch, and there have
> been a couple of acceptances since then), 97.64% of highways, and 99.48% of
> other ways.
>
> But there are a few significant problem areas:
>
> - NE Surrey/SW London
> - Hertfordshire (Luton, Hemel etc.)
> - the Wirral
>
> There are also milder problems in Manchester, Coventry and Hampshire, and,
> of course, isolated pockets here and there.

For the record, I'm working on Coventry at the moment. I hope to have
time over the next month to blitz it clean but I welcome any other
mappers in the area to help out too. Fortunately the majority of
Coventry was mapped by DamoCov (agreed) before sherbourne (undecided)
made his changes. Most street names were entered by DamoCov and any
that weren't are available from OS OpenData StreetView; for those few
that remain I'll have to do a personal survey. I'm mainly focusing on
the road network first since I feel that's something that we don't
want to suddenly be broken on the 1st of April and is most easily
verifiable from Bing/OS.

Overall I think that Coventry will come out of this in better shape as
I'm trying to take the time to clean things up wherever possible.

Cheers,
Matt

_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Chris Hill-6
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
On 02/03/12 14:35, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> If you have some free time over the next few weeks, do go and remap.
> P2 and JOSM both have licence status displays. Bing and OS StreetView
> are immensely useful resources (my P2 prefs have them assigned to
> function keys F1 and F2 for easy reference).
I'll tackle the nearest area to me, northern Lincolnshire. The biggest
undecided there is Nevov whom I have tried  and failed to contact.

--
Cheers, Chris
user: chillly


_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Andrew Hain
In reply to this post by Matt Williams-2
Matt Williams <lists@...> writes:

>
> I'm mainly focusing on
> the road network first since I feel that's something that we don't
> want to suddenly be broken on the 1st of April and is most easily
> verifiable from Bing/OS.
>
> Overall I think that Coventry will come out of this in better shape as
> I'm trying to take the time to clean things up wherever possible.
>
> Cheers,
> Matt
>

Both of those have been my approach in Surrey.

--
Andrew


_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

lsces
In reply to this post by Matt Williams-2
Matt Williams wrote:
> Overall I think that Coventry will come out of this in better shape as
> I'm trying to take the time to clean things up wherever possible.

I was finding that myself ... it was easier simply to wipe a problem section and
then add a more comprehensive set of data in it's place ... trace a building
rather than just add a new node. In many cases what I wiped was a little suspect
anyway so I doubt that loosing it would be that much agro anyway!

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
On Fri, 2012-03-02 at 14:35 +0000, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> We change to the new licence in just under a month's time, so it's a
> good time to look at the current state of the UK. What's likely not to
> be carried through to the new database?
>
> The good news is that the UK is in a very healthy state overall.  Just
> under 99% of nodes will survive (98.68% according to odbl.poole.ch, and
> there have been a couple of acceptances since then), 97.64% of highways,
> and 99.48% of other ways.
>
> But there are a few significant problem areas:
>
I have been concentrating on my home area of Shropshire, I began
remapping at the end of January, mainly concentrating on the A roads,
had planned to fix the M54 but was beaten to that one. Have remapped
some sections of the A41, A53 and A442 as well as a few minor fixes
along the A5. It would have been embarrassing for the OSM community if
these types of roads disappear on April 1st. Its not in too bad a state,
I have traces for some that now show up on Badmap and just need to do
some editing. The most that will be lost is some housing estates in
Telford, which can be put back in a few lunchtimes of surveying.

Have also been looking at my old area, Leicester, there are a few main
roads that I can fix with GPS traces as we visit relatives and some
others can be fixed with some local knowledge and bing. There are some
big housing estates in Leicester, that will vanish.

Have emailed Sherbourne and millimole2001 as they contributed a lot of
these areas, but have received no response. Is there anyway of knowing
if the email bounced?

I am GPS logging most of my journeys now, so I may have some traces to
fix thing that break.

Phil


_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
On 2 March 2012 14:35, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
> We change to the new licence in just under a month's time, so it's a good
> time to look at the current state of the UK.

We're almost certainly not going to be able to able to get the UK
completely clean by the switch-over, and it's definitely good if we
can prioritise work on particularly badly-tainted areas. But I wonder
if another prioritisation approach might be useful too -- prioritising
certain high-value types of objects, where-ever they might be.

For instance, as far as routing is concerned, any gaps in the major
road network is likely to cause significant problems for data-users.
So might it be possible for someone to generate a list of
highway=motorway and highway=trunk objects that are tainted, so people
could work on eliminating those. The idea could extended to include
the corresponding *_link ways, and if progress is good we could
continue to do highway=primary and highway=secondary.

We might want to do the same for railway=rail and perhaps
waterway=river. Are there any other types of object people can think
of that might be worth prioritising?

You can sort of look for these types of object using BadMap [1] at low
zooms, but it's not that easy, and the low zooms aren't updated as
often I don't think. It would be much easier if there was a specific
list of objects to work from. I'm afraid I don't have the hardware /
experience / technical expertise to generate the data sets, but maybe
someone who does might think it's a good idea...

Robert.

[1] http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=6&lat=54.28388&lon=-3.24444&layers=00B0

--
Robert Whittaker

_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

MarkS-10
I agree that we want to try and have a complete main road network network.

Whilst longish stretches of road are easy to spot there are a lot of
other small sections (eg. bridges) which are harder to see on cleanmap
(unless the rest of the area is clean).

We also have the issue of nodes going at highway junctions. Even if the
ways stay we may loose the critical join.  There a still a number of
motorway junctions like this across the UK (and there must be plenty on
trunk roads).  You need OSMI to see these and with things like footpaths
(which we can't remap remotely) adding to the red it is very difficult
to spot.   I do wonder if it would be easier to erase things we can't
remap so we can identify more easily those we can.

As Robert says getting a list of problem highway nodes/ways would be a
good step.

Mark_S


On 03/03/2012 09:19, Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:

> On 2 March 2012 14:35, Richard Fairhurst<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> We change to the new licence in just under a month's time, so it's a good
>> time to look at the current state of the UK.
>
> We're almost certainly not going to be able to able to get the UK
> completely clean by the switch-over, and it's definitely good if we
> can prioritise work on particularly badly-tainted areas. But I wonder
> if another prioritisation approach might be useful too -- prioritising
> certain high-value types of objects, where-ever they might be.
>
> For instance, as far as routing is concerned, any gaps in the major
> road network is likely to cause significant problems for data-users.
> So might it be possible for someone to generate a list of
> highway=motorway and highway=trunk objects that are tainted, so people
> could work on eliminating those. The idea could extended to include
> the corresponding *_link ways, and if progress is good we could
> continue to do highway=primary and highway=secondary.
>
> We might want to do the same for railway=rail and perhaps
> waterway=river. Are there any other types of object people can think
> of that might be worth prioritising?
>
> You can sort of look for these types of object using BadMap [1] at low
> zooms, but it's not that easy, and the low zooms aren't updated as
> often I don't think. It would be much easier if there was a specific
> list of objects to work from. I'm afraid I don't have the hardware /
> experience / technical expertise to generate the data sets, but maybe
> someone who does might think it's a good idea...
>
> Robert.
>
> [1] http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=6&lat=54.28388&lon=-3.24444&layers=00B0
>



_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)
Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:
> I wonder if another prioritisation approach might be useful
> too -- prioritising certain high-value types of objects,
> where-ever they might be.

Yes, I think that's an excellent idea. Obviously, everyone has their own definition of "high value" (I'm quite anxious to make sure the NCN survives in good shape, for example), but motorways, A and B roads should certainly be a principal focus. I've been doing a bunch of work on the A55 in North Wales and have noticed others working on A roads around the place.

> You can sort of look for these types of object using BadMap [1] at
> low zooms, but it's not that easy, and the low zooms aren't
> updated as often I don't think. It would be much easier if there
> was a specific list of objects to work from. I'm afraid I don't
> have the hardware / experience / technical expertise to
> generate the data sets, but maybe someone who does might
> think it's a good idea...

That sort of heavy data lifting is a bit outside my comfort zone as well, I'm afraid, but I wonder if maybe asking Simon just to increase the highway weights at small scales might make them easier to spot...

cheers
Richard
who is currently mapping a country walk (fresh territory) from this afternoon because it shouldn't _all_ be about armchair remapping ;)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by MarkS-10
MarkS wrote:
> As Robert says getting a list of problem highway nodes/ways would
> be a good step.

Simon has very kindly provided this:
http://odbl.poole.ch/uk_major_roads.txt

cheers
Richard

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
The other day I wrote:
> But there are a few significant problem areas:
> - Hertfordshire (Luton, Hemel etc.)

I'm delighted to report that the two major undecided mappers in Hertfordshire have both just agreed. Thank you both.

cheers
Richard

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

MarkS-10
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Thanks Richard/Simon,

If anybody is interested the numbers of each type of way in the file are:

motorway 9
motorway_link 44
primary 1581
primary_link 68
trunk 606
trunk_link 131

The list should ensure that the motorways and their links can be tracked
down and done.  I'll try and work on these in the next few days.  It
might also be possible to save specific A-Roads by filtering the list
(and using JOSM to download the specifc objects that need remapping).

Given the numbers for the other roads it seems unlikely that we'll have
a complete set of trunk roads come 1 April.

I suspect the actual final losses will be worse because from what I've
seen we have a plenty of ways where all (or all but one) of the nodes
will be deleted, so presumably the way will go.  We also have the issue
of nodes getting deleted where roads join, which presumably will create
breaks in roads come 1 April.

Still, gives us something to do.

MarkS




On 04/03/2012 12:42, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> MarkS wrote:
>> As Robert says getting a list of problem highway nodes/ways would
>> be a good step.
>
> Simon has very kindly provided this:
> http://odbl.poole.ch/uk_major_roads.txt
>
> cheers
> Richard
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Licence-change-one-month-to-go-tp5531132p5535158.html
> Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Jonathan Bennett
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Further to this, one helpful thing is if everyone makes sure they've
uploaded all their traces to OSM. I know I'm guilty of working from the
trace files locally when mapping, then forgetting to upload them so
other mappers can make use of the data.

That way we're not entirely reliant on OS data to fill in some gaps.

Jonathan

_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
On 4 March 2012 12:42, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Simon has very kindly provided this:
> http://odbl.poole.ch/uk_major_roads.txt

Excellent -- thanks to both of you for getting this done. Do you know
if/when that file will be updated as ways are re-mapped?

MarkS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> motorway        9
> motorway_link   44
> primary         1581
> primary_link    68
> trunk           606
> trunk_link      131
>
> The list should ensure that the motorways and their links can be tracked down and done.
> I'll try and work on these in the next few days.  It might also be possible to save specific
> A-Roads by filtering the list (and using JOSM to download the specifc objects that need
> remapping).
>
> Given the numbers for the other roads it seems unlikely that we'll have a complete set of
> trunk roads come 1 April.

I think the trunk roads are doable too if enough people help out. It
would only take a dozen people to each do 3 segments per day, and we'd
have all the trunk roads and motorways covered by the end of the
month...

Robert.

--
Robert Whittaker

_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Richard Fairhurst
Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:
> Excellent -- thanks to both of you for getting this done.

The credit belongs to Simon, not me! I believe that he is willing to regenerate the list on occasion, but will wait to be contradicted if that's not the case.

> I think the trunk roads are doable too if enough people help out.

Absolutely. I'm entirely sure we'll have 99.9% trunk road and motorway coverage by changeover day, and that the 0.1% will be a result of not spotting things rather than not having enough manpower.

I'd like to think we'll be most of the way there with the primary and secondary roads, too. IME the main things that are likely to be lost are housing estates done by one dedicated mapper who has declined or is uncontactable, and isolated POIs such as phone boxes, post-boxes and pubs. (But I've not looked at really densely-mapped areas such as London, and the situation may be more serious there.)

cheers
Richard

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Tom Chance-2
On 6 March 2012 15:48, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
(But I've not looked at really densely-mapped areas such as London, and the
situation may be more serious there.)

There are lots of patches of detail in London that are still at risk:

Also quite a lot of the tube system and various main roads in parts of central London and inner West/North. These must be areas where no obsessive OSM people live, we've cleaned up our own areas fairly comprehensively.

Some special effort on this would be good, what with the Golden Jubilee and the London 2012 Games on the horizon.

Tom

_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

ael-3
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
On Tue, Mar 06, 2012 at 07:48:50AM -0800, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> I'd like to think we'll be most of the way there with the primary and
> secondary roads, too.

There are a few fairly important road/lanes in Cornwall that will be
lost the last time I looked. I expect to be in the area soon, so might
be able to gps survey some of them if traces are missing. Time (and
petrol - I am cautious about cycling on narrow lanes with high banks)
permitting.

ael

_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Derick Rethans
In reply to this post by Tom Chance-2
On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, Tom Chance wrote:

> On 6 March 2012 15:48, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > (But I've not looked at really densely-mapped areas such as London, and the
> > situation may be more serious there.)
> >
>
> There are lots of patches of detail in London that are still at risk:
> http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=13&lat=51.51807&lon=-0.1225&layers=00B%0D%0A

I've been making my way through
http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=14&lat=51.53425&lon=-0.19357&layers=00B0 
and slowly going southwards.

> Also quite a lot of the tube system and various main roads in parts of
> central London and inner West/North. These must be areas where no obsessive
> OSM people live, we've cleaned up our own areas fairly comprehensively.

Tube is next on my list after the stuff from the previous permalink.

cheers,
Derick

--
http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org
Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php
twitter: @derickr and @xdebug

_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

Donald Noble
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:
> I think the trunk roads are doable too if enough people help out.

I am going to work my way through the A7* A8* and A9* roads in
Scotland, as I know most of them, and can fill in the blanks with
OSSV, bing or uploaded GPS traces.

I'm assuming that if the end nodes were both created by CT agreeing
members, then it is just a case of redrawing the way along the route,
picking up connecting road nodes along the way. If, perchance, a minor
road junction was added by a non CT agreeing contributor, then that
junction will be lost come 1st April — but it would have been anyway.
However, the main road network should be preserved.

Might take a few nights of armchair mapping, but the weather still isn't great…!

Donald

--
Donald Noble
http://drnoble.co.uk - http://flickr.com/photos/drnoble

_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Licence change - one month to go

MarkS-10
In reply to this post by Tom Chance-2

>
> There are lots of patches of detail in London that are still at risk:
> http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=13&lat=51.51807&lon=-0.1225&layers=00B%0D%0A
> <http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=13&lat=51.51807&lon=-0.1225&layers=00B%0D%0A>
>

My worry in Central London is the large number of traffic lights that
appear when you zoom in.  Presumably these are junctions of two ways
where the junction node will disppear and the ways will nolonger connect.

Whilst the traffic lights are easy to spot there must be many more
junctions that don't have lights that will also break. I'm not sure
these are easy to spot without zooming right in on OSMI.

Mark_S


_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
12