Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

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Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Joseph Eisenberg
What is the best tag to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

I checked, and currently a number of farmyards are tagged with
farmyard=*, but most values describe the feature, like
farmyard=feedlot. Landuse=meadow can be tagged with meadow=pasture or
=paddock, but again this does not specify the type of animal in the
pasture.

Some mappers have used animal=* or livestock=* with landuse=farmyard
and landuse=meadow.

The tag animal=* has been 2137 times - but most of the values are
animal=yes (unhelpful!), leaving slightly under 200 uses of animal
types like chicken, cow, cattle, goat, sheep, horse and pig.

Unfortunately, the key animal=* has also been used for zoo animals
(see elephant, etc) and some of the values are rare, proposed separate
features like animal=wellness and animal=cemetery.

The tag livestock=* is more specific for farming - livestock are
domestic, agricultural animals, and livestock=* has been used 132
times with landuse=farmyard or =meadow, mostly with values cattle,
poultry, horse, pig, and chicken.

There's also the key produce=, which has been used about 190 times
with the two features, however most values used on these features are
products like meat=, eggs=, milk= and dairy= - only 61 features have
an animal name like goat= or hen= (chicken?), so it appears that most
mappers do not use this tag to specify types of animals raised on
farmland or meadows.

So it looks like livestock=* is probably the best option.

I'm asking about these landuse=meadow and landuse=farmyard in
particular, because the other agricultural features already have a way
to specify the plant or animal that is grown or raised:
* landuse=orchard (that is, the plants or trees in the orchard or
plantation), trees=* is used (also includes shurbs like tea and tall
plants like bananas).
* landuse=aquaculture area, aquaculture=* is used (eg =shrimp, fish, mussels)
* landuse=farmland, crop=* is usually used.

- Joseph

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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

marc marc
Le 19.08.19 à 12:17, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
> The tag animal=* has been 2137 times
> animal=yes (unhelpful!)

I wonder why it's useless.
if the contributor does not know if they are cows or calves,
this allows him to enter "there are farm animals there" and any
application can easily target for improvement (e.g. StreetComplete).
what would be useless is to force the contributor to be an expert in
biology to inform "there are animals there".
it would be just as useless as trying to remove all the key=yes
that are the very basis of the incremental contribution,
one of power of osm

> The tag livestock=*
> used 132 times

16% of landuse=farmyard have a anima=* tag.
I didn't understand what argument to hope that the
current most used tag would change in favor of a marginal tag.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Warin
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On 19/08/19 20:17, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> What is the best tag to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?
>
> I checked, and currently a number of farmyards are tagged with
> farmyard=*, but most values describe the feature, like
> farmyard=feedlot. Landuse=meadow can be tagged with meadow=pasture or
> =paddock, but again this does not specify the type of animal in the
> pasture.
>
> Some mappers have used animal=* or livestock=* with landuse=farmyard
> and landuse=meadow.
>
> The tag animal=* has been 2137 times - but most of the values are
> animal=yes (unhelpful!), leaving slightly under 200 uses of animal
> types like chicken, cow, cattle, goat, sheep, horse and pig.

What reason is there not to us animal? It already exists as a tag, has some use.

Animal in OSM has low usage for animal facilities, and some use for the actual kind of animal.

>
> Unfortunately, the key animal=* has also been used for zoo animals
> (see elephant, etc) and some of the values are rare, proposed separate
> features like animal=wellness and animal=cemetery.

Ostriches are zoo animals... but I think they were farmed, and may still be?
No reason to reject animal simply because it has use for other animals?

>
> The tag livestock=* is more specific for farming - livestock are
> domestic, agricultural animals, and livestock=* has been used 132
> times with landuse=farmyard or =meadow, mostly with values cattle,
> poultry, horse, pig, and chicken.

Specific to farming, so it cannot be used elsewhere?

That is a negative for me, I like property tags that can be used anywhere appropriate.
OSM does not have separate  height tags for buildings, bridges, signs, fences etc etc. One tag makes much more sense.

>
> There's also the key produce=, which has been used about 190 times
> with the two features, however most values used on these features are
> products like meat=, eggs=, milk= and dairy= - only 61 features have
> an animal name like goat= or hen= (chicken?), so it appears that most
> mappers do not use this tag to specify types of animals raised on
> farmland or meadows.

Produce: Describes a feature's agricultural output produced though a natural process of growing or breeding.

So the produce key is used for the output, if that is live animals then they can be tagged that way.
If the output is milk then produce=milk not produce=cow.

If the output is goats then produce=goats.
 

>
> So it looks like livestock=* is probably the best option.
>
> I'm asking about these landuse=meadow and landuse=farmyard in
> particular, because the other agricultural features already have a way
> to specify the plant or animal that is grown or raised:

If the animal is grown or raised there and is the output of that feature then use the produce key - that is what it is for.

There is use of livestock:goat=yes/some number... and I like it some and can be used to indicate the presence of goats.

The output could be milk, meat and/or hides as well as live goats.

> * landuse=orchard (that is, the plants or trees in the orchard or
> plantation), trees=* is used (also includes shurbs like tea and tall
> plants like bananas).
> * landuse=aquaculture area, aquaculture=* is used (eg =shrimp, fish, mussels)
> * landuse=farmland, crop=* is usually used.

Is there a need to specify the output of  landuse=meadow in some way that is separate from all the others?

meadow:output=*

And then yet another key to specify the output for landuse=farmyard?

farmland:output=*
I don't think so. Nor do I like the other examples - yes they have some use, but I don't regard them as good tags.

---------------------------
There are two things here - the presence of something and the output of something.
These are 2 separate features and need separate tags.
But the tags should not be artificially limited, the more universal they are the easier for people to learn them, remember them, use them and perhaps render them.

The key produce works well as it will work for any output (other than man made - ie product).


For the presence of an animal? Livestock limits it to agricultural activities.

animal:goat=yes/number ??? Can be used on anything that has these animals, zoos or farms.


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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 11:21, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
 Landuse=meadow can be tagged with meadow=pasture or
=paddock, but again this does not specify the type of animal in the
pasture.

There are two problems with that statement.

1) In normal usage, a pasture is not a category of meadow.  Pasture has animals
grazing directly upon it.  Meadows are where the grass is mown for hay to later be fed
to animals.  But this error in terminology is probably too embedded to fix.

2) According to the wiki, paddock is definitely not a category of meadow.  See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Riding  which explicitly states that a
paddock is not a grazing area (but it also admits that in some parts of the
world usage goes against that statement).   I haven't found anything in the wiki to
suggest that meadow=paddock is documented.

--
Paul


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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Warin
On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 12:16, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

That is a negative for me, I like property tags that can be used anywhere appropriate.

The authors of at least one editor disagree with you there.  Unless all of the possible
values are applicable to all objects for which that property is appropriate, they won't
implement a preset for it.  If objects of type A get one subset of values but objects
of type B get a different subset of values then it won't get implemented.  Because
they populate drop-downs from the wiki and/or wikidata.  In this particular case,
all farm animals might be found in zoos but not all zoo animals will be found on
farms.  Having a common property tag would lead to a drop-down for farm
animals including pandas, bears, gold eagles, reticulated pythons, etc. because
it would be populated from the same (hypothetical) wiki(data) page that covers zoo
and farm animals.

I don't necessarily agree with the thinking of those editors in all the cases they've
applied it to, but that IS what they think.  And if a tag isn't supported by popular editors
it won't get used much.  In this case, I wouldn't want to have to wade through a drop-down
of all zoo animals to add farm animals, so I tend to agree with them.

OSM does not have separate  height tags for buildings, bridges, signs, fences etc etc. One tag makes much more sense.

A height is a height is a height, whatever it is applied to.  Many zoo animals are not farm animals.
A height is a numeric value, a list of animals is a list: editors handle numeric values and lists
with different GUI interfaces to make life easier (type in a number versus add items in a list).

--
Paul


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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

marc marc
Le 19.08.19 à 13:34, Paul Allen a écrit :
> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 12:16, Warin wrote:
>    I like property tags that can be used anywhere appropriate.
>
> The authors of at least one editor disagree with you there.  
> Unless all of the possible
> values are applicable to all objects for which that property is
> appropriate, they won't implement a preset for it.

to use Warin's example, this would mean that the tag height is bad,
because not all height values (including those of hudge building) are
applicable to street cabinets.
The iD team's choice not to filter the context makes the height list not
very useful for street cabinet. do we have to change the tag height into
streetcabinet:height ? and then we also change the tag name to have
building:name ? or simply to find that this choice of editor is not optimal?
josm's team has (it seems to me) made the choice to take into account
the context
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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
1) Landuse=meadow has been used for pastures for a very long time, and
the wiki page and definition make it clear that this is fine.
Previously landuse=pasture was proposed, but rejected since it's quite
similar and in many places it can be hard to distinguish hay meadow
from grazing pasture during most of the year.

2) Ok, I agree that probably paddocks / pens / corrals which are bare
soil or another non-vegetated surface should be included in
landuse=farmyard. However, if an area used for horses is
grass-covered, I don't see how most mappers could distinguish it from
a pasture or meadow, so landuse=meadow would work.

On 8/19/19, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 11:21, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>  Landuse=meadow can be tagged with meadow=pasture or
>> =paddock, but again this does not specify the type of animal in the
>> pasture.
>>
>
> There are two problems with that statement.
>
> 1) In normal usage, a pasture is not a category of meadow.  Pasture has
> animals
> grazing directly upon it.  Meadows are where the grass is mown for hay to
> later be fed
> to animals.  But this error in terminology is probably too embedded to fix.
>
> 2) According to the wiki, paddock is definitely not a category of meadow.
> See
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Riding  which explicitly states that a
> paddock is not a grazing area (but it also admits that in some parts of the
> world usage goes against that statement).   I haven't found anything in the
> wiki to
> suggest that meadow=paddock is documented.
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by marc marc
>> The tag livestock=*
>> used 132 times
>
> 16% of landuse=farmyard have a animal=* tag.

I think you misread taginfo. There are over 800,000 landuse=farmyard
features, and only  1764 have an animal=* tag, so that is 0.22% - the
16% on the right means that 16% of uses of animal are found on
landuse=farmyard.

If we remove the animal=yes tags, there are about 247 uses of animal=*
on landuse=farmyard, landuse=meadow, and landuse=farmland combined, so
it's not huge.

I'd be happy to use either animal=* or livestock=*, myself, but I was
concerned that they wide variety of uses for the animal=* key would be
a problem with getting a proposal approved.

Joseph

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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

marc marc
Le 19.08.19 à 15:28, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
>>> The tag livestock=*
>>> used 132 times
>>
>> 16% of landuse=farmyard have a animal=* tag.
>
> I think you misread taginfo.

you're right.

> If we remove the animal=yes tags

in stead of a replay, can you explain
why those valid datas need to be removed ?
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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


sent from a phone

> On 19. Aug 2019, at 12:17, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, the key animal=* has also been used for zoo animals
> (see elephant, etc) and some of the values are rare, proposed separate
> features like animal=wellness and animal=cemetery.


I would not see a problem in the animal key being used in zoos and for livestock, as this could still be seen as consistent use. Animal=wellness or cemetery on the other hand follow a different concept (IMHO schemes like this are not favorable, similar to camp_site=toilets etc, because I would prefer schemes where A=B means that B is a kind of A rather than A a context)

Cheers Martin




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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by marc marc


sent from a phone

> On 19. Aug 2019, at 12:35, marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 16% of landuse=farmyard have a anima=* tag.
> I didn't understand what argument to hope that the
> current most used tag would change in favor of a marginal tag.


generally I would expect a farmyard to contain several buildings with possibly many different animals, either outside of in buildings, so these tags often would not be associated with the farmyard but with parts of it.

The tag building=farm_auxiliary is amongst the most popular building tags, but is very generic and could mean a stable, cowshed, pigsty, sheep pen, barn, henhouse, garage, etc. IMHO it would be desirable to be more specific at this level as well.

While livestock is technically more precise, I would be fine with a generic and easy to understand, generic „animal“ tag as well.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Warin


sent from a phone

> On 19. Aug 2019, at 13:13, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So the produce key is used for the output, if that is live animals then they can be tagged that way.
> If the output is milk then produce=milk not produce=cow.


+1, similarly for chicken, which are usually either kept for eggs or for meat


>
> If the output is goats then produce=goats.


or animal=goat produce=cheese?


Cheers Martin
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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


sent from a phone

> On 19. Aug 2019, at 15:20, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> similar and in many places it can be hard to distinguish hay meadow
> from grazing pasture during most of the year.


the presence of a fence aiming at keeping the animals inside may be an indication, although not everywhere (if there’s someone keeping an eye on the animals or the area is quite remote you may not need the fence, and fences may be used in some areas to keep people off the meadow although no animals are grazing there).

Still in many other places it would work. With profound on the ground knowledge (continued observation) you may tell, but we are not generally having this many eyes on the ground (yet ;-) ).

Cheers Martin
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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


sent from a phone

> On 19. Aug 2019, at 15:28, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If we remove the animal=yes tags, there are about 247 uses of animal=*
> on landuse=farmyard, landuse=meadow, and landuse=farmland combined, so
> it's not huge.


animal=yes/no would already be a quite useful generic distinction for farmyards
It’s not very common, I agree.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Joseph Eisenberg
Re: produce,

It's much harder for a mapper to find out if a herd of goats is used
to produce milk, meat or cheese than to just tag "there are goats
here", even if you are doing a local survey. Unless the farm has a
sign like "Farmer Joe's Eggs", it's not easy to tell if chickens are
raised for meat or eggs, or for live sale to other farms. This is why
I believe it would be useful to have a standard key to tag livestock
animals on farms, just as there are tags for the type of crops growing
on farmland, the type of orchard/plantation trees/plants, and the type
of aquatic organism raised in aquaculture ponds.

It's okay if mappers want to add produce=cheese to an farmyard where
goats are kept, but it's still useful to add animal/livestock=goats -
this also shows that it's goat cheese, not regular cow milk cheese.

Joseph

On 8/20/19, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 19. Aug 2019, at 15:28, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> If we remove the animal=yes tags, there are about 247 uses of animal=*
>> on landuse=farmyard, landuse=meadow, and landuse=farmland combined, so
>> it's not huge.
>
>
> animal=yes/no would already be a quite useful generic distinction for
> farmyards
> It’s not very common, I agree.
>
> Cheers Martin
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Warin
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
First. What is to be mapped?

The presence of animals?

Or

The animal output of a agricultural feature?

Once I have that answer I can respond to that issue rather than provide multiple answers that confuse.

The first post talks of both presence and output, while the subject says presence.



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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 09:37, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's much harder for a mapper to find out if a herd of goats is used
to produce milk, meat or cheese than to just tag "there are goats
here", 

Being somewhat tongue-in-cheek here, but I'll point out that goats don't actually produce cheese, same as cows don't produce cream, butter, chocolate milk, or cheese - they both produce milk, which is then used as the basis for other products, maybe on the same site, but often (usually?) elsewhere :-)

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Warin
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 20/08/19 03:40, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 19. Aug 2019, at 13:13, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> So the produce key is used for the output, if that is live animals then they can be tagged that way.
>> If the output is milk then produce=milk not produce=cow.
>
> +1, similarly for chicken, which are usually either kept for eggs or for meat
>
>
>> If the output is goats then produce=goats.
>
> or animal=goat produce=cheese?

Yes, except cheese has a fair amount of processing so I would tend to call it a product.

So possibly animal:goat=yes/some number, produce=milk product=cheese?

Animal:goat=yes allows multiple animals.



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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Warin
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On 19/08/19 21:34, Paul Allen wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 12:16, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

That is a negative for me, I like property tags that can be used anywhere appropriate.

The authors of at least one editor disagree with you there.  Unless all of the possible
values are applicable to all objects for which that property is appropriate, they won't
implement a preset for it.  If objects of type A get one subset of values but objects
of type B get a different subset of values then it won't get implemented.  Because
they populate drop-downs from the wiki and/or wikidata.  In this particular case,
all farm animals might be found in zoos but not all zoo animals will be found on
farms.  Having a common property tag would lead to a drop-down for farm
animals including pandas, bears, gold eagles, reticulated pythons, etc. because
it would be populated from the same (hypothetical) wiki(data) page that covers zoo
and farm animals.

Separating animals into categories of 'exotic', 'livestock', 'native', 'working, 'feral' and 'pet' .. this would be area dependant.

Elephants in many areas of the world would be 'exotic' in a few others 'working', and /or 'native'.

Kangaroos in many areas of the world would be 'exotic' in some others 'native', yet to see 'livestock' but there is hope.


This does not fit into some easy method of categorising for some drop down menu for the world, sorry.

So I think all possible animals may, I say may, be applicable to any feature that 'animal' could be used.

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Re: Livestock=* to specify the livestock animals in a farmyard or meadow?

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 10:47, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Separating animals into categories of 'exotic', 'livestock', 'native', 'working, 'feral' and 'pet' .. this would be area dependant.

& you could have the same animal fitting into different categories at the same place, at the same time.

eg in Northern Australia, water buffalo are in introduced species that have now become feral, & are classified as a pest ("exotic"; "feral"). However, they are rounded up / harvested for meat, usually for pet food ("livestock"?); while hunters can pay to go on guided hunts to shoot them ("?")


Kangaroos in many areas of the world would be 'exotic' in some others 'native', yet to see 'livestock' but there is hope.

To a professional roo shooter? Yes, could be "livestock"?

Thanks

Graeme 

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