Local Government Areas without Councils

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Local Government Areas without Councils

cleary

I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
Wales" because it was not administered by a council.

Both of these "unincorporated" areas are defined and designated in the
respective government datasets, that is (1) South Australian Government
Data - Local Government Areas and (2) LPI NSW Administrative Boundaries
- Local Government.

The issue for the other mapper appears to be the acceptability of the
form of governance of these areas. While the majority of local
government areas are administered by councils, this model works less
well in areas which are sparsely populated. The Pastoral Unincorporated
Area in South Australia is administered by a designated authority, the
Outback Communities Authority, which is not a council either in name or
in the usual sense. I am aware of three other designated local
government areas in South Australia that do not have councils - two are
administered by the indigenous residents although they appear to have
some form of executive committee to make routine decisions. One
designated local government area does not appear to have a council and I
have not ascertained the form of governance.  In the Unincorporated Area
of New South Wales, responsibilities are dispersed and do not rest with
any one body, for example roads are managed by the Roads and Maritime
Services (state authority) and there are local advisory committees in
some isolated communities.

The key issue is whether the form of governance in an area should
determine whether or not areas should be mapped in OSM. It seems to me
to be akin to removing Northern Territory and ACT on the basis that they
have different forms of governance and are not proper states!

The comments on the Pastoral Unincorporated Area can be viewed at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44528330#map=12/-34.3720/140.4687
The relation for the Pastoral Unincorporated Area is at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6804541
The deleted relation for Unincorporated Area of New South Wales is at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5892272 and refers to Changeset
#44531564

Do other members of the OSM community have a view on whether the form of
governance should determine what areas are shown on the map and
particularly whether local government areas should be included if they
are not administered by councils.




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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Alex Sims
Speaking of SA only I would define the LGA locations administered by the Outback Communities Authority as Unincorporated as
- thats how other hierarchies used by Government, ABS etc define it, and every point in SA is either in an LGA or Unincorporated
- Unincorporated means Outback Communities Authority does your bins, dog registration, planning, etc

The Pitjantjatjara lands I would define as not Unincorporated as "Anangu Pitjantjatjara Yankunytjatjara” in the LGA level as that body peforms the equivalent function to an LGA, and it is not covered by the Outback Communities Authority so its not Unincorporated but not an LGA but something else that sites underneath the State. Similar Logic for Maralinga etc.

Alex

> On 21 Dec 2016, at 8:45 am, cleary <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
> Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
> currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
> another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
> response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
> that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
> Wales" because it was not administered by a council.
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au


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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Daniel O'Connor
In reply to this post by cleary
Its an interesting one - unlike suburbs, LGAs don't really have a physical presence or much you can survey; even though they have a spatial relationship/are often defined by physical features. 
For being surveyable... maybe you get a 'welcome to foo shire' sign or two.

I would say that if an LGA is suitable to be added, Unincorporated Areas and other weird things like http://www.ncl.net.au/ (A town owned by a corporation that provides services like an LGA, but isn't legally an LGA) should be suitable too.


In terms of actually using the data; I find that relying on the ABS data and treating that as a separate data set is often quite useful. I'd be inclined to not worry too much about adding them in; particularly when they do fun things like merge frequently - maintenance pain in the behind and a half!



On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 8:45 AM, cleary <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
Wales" because it was not administered by a council.

Both of these "unincorporated" areas are defined and designated in the
respective government datasets, that is (1) South Australian Government
Data - Local Government Areas and (2) LPI NSW Administrative Boundaries
- Local Government.

The issue for the other mapper appears to be the acceptability of the
form of governance of these areas. While the majority of local
government areas are administered by councils, this model works less
well in areas which are sparsely populated. The Pastoral Unincorporated
Area in South Australia is administered by a designated authority, the
Outback Communities Authority, which is not a council either in name or
in the usual sense. I am aware of three other designated local
government areas in South Australia that do not have councils - two are
administered by the indigenous residents although they appear to have
some form of executive committee to make routine decisions. One
designated local government area does not appear to have a council and I
have not ascertained the form of governance.  In the Unincorporated Area
of New South Wales, responsibilities are dispersed and do not rest with
any one body, for example roads are managed by the Roads and Maritime
Services (state authority) and there are local advisory committees in
some isolated communities.

The key issue is whether the form of governance in an area should
determine whether or not areas should be mapped in OSM. It seems to me
to be akin to removing Northern Territory and ACT on the basis that they
have different forms of governance and are not proper states!

The comments on the Pastoral Unincorporated Area can be viewed at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44528330#map=12/-34.3720/140.4687
The relation for the Pastoral Unincorporated Area is at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6804541
The deleted relation for Unincorporated Area of New South Wales is at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5892272 and refers to Changeset
#44531564

Do other members of the OSM community have a view on whether the form of
governance should determine what areas are shown on the map and
particularly whether local government areas should be included if they
are not administered by councils.




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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Nick Hocking
In reply to this post by cleary
As a side issue: I don't believe that a mapper's work should be deleted by anyone other than the mapper themselves, unless it is agreed on this list that the work was vandalism or copyright violation.

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Deletions was Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Warin
On 21-Dec-16 10:45 AM, Nick Hocking wrote:
> As a side issue: I don't believe that a mapper's work should be
> deleted by anyone other than the mapper themselves, unless it is
> agreed on this list that the work was vandalism or copyright violation.

I too don't like deleting stuff ... even my own. I have found that
deletions are better approached by changing the tags rather than
outright deletion e.g. 'highway=*' to 'obsolete:highway=*'

But I don't think a requirement of discussion on the list is required,
better is the suggestion that the author be contacted using the
changesets comments before acting?

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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Warin
In reply to this post by cleary
On 21-Dec-16 09:15 AM, cleary wrote:

> I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
> Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
> currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
> another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
> response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
> that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
> Wales" because it was not administered by a council.
>
> Both of these "unincorporated" areas are defined and designated in the
> respective government datasets, that is (1) South Australian Government
> Data - Local Government Areas and (2) LPI NSW Administrative Boundaries
> - Local Government.
>
> The issue for the other mapper appears to be the acceptability of the
> form of governance of these areas. While the majority of local
> government areas are administered by councils, this model works less
> well in areas which are sparsely populated. The Pastoral Unincorporated
> Area in South Australia is administered by a designated authority, the
> Outback Communities Authority, which is not a council either in name or
> in the usual sense. I am aware of three other designated local
> government areas in South Australia that do not have councils - two are
> administered by the indigenous residents although they appear to have
> some form of executive committee to make routine decisions. One
> designated local government area does not appear to have a council and I
> have not ascertained the form of governance.  In the Unincorporated Area
> of New South Wales, responsibilities are dispersed and do not rest with
> any one body, for example roads are managed by the Roads and Maritime
> Services (state authority) and there are local advisory committees in
> some isolated communities.
>
> The key issue is whether the form of governance in an area should
> determine whether or not areas should be mapped in OSM. It seems to me
> to be akin to removing Northern Territory and ACT on the basis that they
> have different forms of governance and are not proper states!

The 'territories' are covered in the OSMwiki as equivalent to states.

My view : if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck ... it is a duck.

So the governance is irrelevant to the issue ... the area is managed by 'something' ..that 'something'  should be treated the same way in OSM for the same function.

So ... my view - change the wiki to reflect 'our' circumstance.


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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Andrew Davidson-3
In reply to this post by cleary
It's pretty simple:

1. Admin level 6 boundaries are supposed to enclose a "Local Government
Authority".

2. In NSW the only form of "Local Government Authority" are councils
incorporated under the Local Government Act.

3. The areas covered by these councils are "incorporated areas".

4. The three polygons in the LPI dataset labelled "UNINCORPORATED"
represent areas that are not in the "incorporated areas" and therefore
have no "Local Government Authority".

5. You don't put boundaries around things that don't exist.

QED.

The SA case is complicated by the existence of the Outback Communities
Authority. According to the Office of Local Government it's not included:

http://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/local_govt.

Which is supported by the fact that the name includes the phrase
"unincorporated area".

On 2016-12-21 09:15, cleary wrote:

>
> I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
> Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
> currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
> another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
> response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
> that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
> Wales" because it was not administered by a council.
>
> Both of these "unincorporated" areas are defined and designated in the
> respective government datasets, that is (1) South Australian Government
> Data - Local Government Areas and (2) LPI NSW Administrative Boundaries
> - Local Government.
>
> The issue for the other mapper appears to be the acceptability of the
> form of governance of these areas. While the majority of local
> government areas are administered by councils, this model works less
> well in areas which are sparsely populated. The Pastoral Unincorporated
> Area in South Australia is administered by a designated authority, the
> Outback Communities Authority, which is not a council either in name or
> in the usual sense. I am aware of three other designated local
> government areas in South Australia that do not have councils - two are
> administered by the indigenous residents although they appear to have
> some form of executive committee to make routine decisions. One
> designated local government area does not appear to have a council and I
> have not ascertained the form of governance.  In the Unincorporated Area
> of New South Wales, responsibilities are dispersed and do not rest with
> any one body, for example roads are managed by the Roads and Maritime
> Services (state authority) and there are local advisory committees in
> some isolated communities.
>
> The key issue is whether the form of governance in an area should
> determine whether or not areas should be mapped in OSM. It seems to me
> to be akin to removing Northern Territory and ACT on the basis that they
> have different forms of governance and are not proper states!
>
> The comments on the Pastoral Unincorporated Area can be viewed at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44528330#map=12/-34.3720/140.4687
> The relation for the Pastoral Unincorporated Area is at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6804541
> The deleted relation for Unincorporated Area of New South Wales is at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5892272 and refers to Changeset
> #44531564
>
> Do other members of the OSM community have a view on whether the form of
> governance should determine what areas are shown on the map and
> particularly whether local government areas should be included if they
> are not administered by councils.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>

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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Andrew Davidson-3
In reply to this post by Warin
On 2016-12-21 11:01, Warin wrote:
> So the governance is irrelevant to the issue ... the area is managed by
> 'something' ..that 'something'  should be treated the same way in OSM
> for the same function.

The area is managed by the State of New South Wales and there is already
a admin_level 4 boundary marking that out.

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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Warin
On 21-Dec-16 11:38 AM, Andrew Davidson wrote:
> On 2016-12-21 11:01, Warin wrote:
>> So the governance is irrelevant to the issue ... the area is managed by
>> 'something' ..that 'something'  should be treated the same way in OSM
>> for the same function.
>
> The area is managed by the State of New South Wales and there is
> already a admin_level 4 boundary marking that out.
>

Taken to the extreme councils are subject to the governance by the State
of New South Wales.
For example the amalgamation of councils, placing certain councils into
governance by an unelected official all done by the State Government.

These 'unincorporated areas' have some part of the gobermint
administering them ... as such the have an entity preforming at least
some of the actions of a 'local council' (building approvals for example).
The most logical place to have that data in under the 'local government'
section.


Interesting review dated 2013
http://www.olg.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/Strengthening-Far-West-Communities-Supporting-Information-Volume-3.pdf 





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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Andrew Davidson-3
On 2016-12-21 14:53, Warin wrote:

> On 21-Dec-16 11:38 AM, Andrew Davidson wrote:
>> On 2016-12-21 11:01, Warin wrote:
>>> So the governance is irrelevant to the issue ... the area is managed by
>>> 'something' ..that 'something'  should be treated the same way in OSM
>>> for the same function.
>>
>> The area is managed by the State of New South Wales and there is
>> already a admin_level 4 boundary marking that out.
>>
>
> Taken to the extreme councils are subject to the governance by the State
> of New South Wales.

Obviously. They are entirely a creation of a State government act.

> For example the amalgamation of councils, placing certain councils into
> governance by an unelected official all done by the State Government.

So what? The local government authority still exists even if the council
is being run by an administrator. Admin_level 6 means that there is a
local government authority in place, not that it is democratically elected.

>
> These 'unincorporated areas' have some part of the gobermint
> administering them ... as such the have an entity preforming at least
> some of the actions of a 'local council' (building approvals for example).
> The most logical place to have that data in under the 'local government'
> section.
>

We're not mapping with the administrative boundary the areas where there
are garbage services, building approvals are required, or the streets
have kerbs and gutters.  We're mapping where there is a local government
authority in place, and, as it says on the box 'unincorporated area',
there is no local government authority in these areas.

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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Warin
On 21-Dec-16 03:11 PM, Andrew Davidson wrote:

> On 2016-12-21 14:53, Warin wrote:
>> On 21-Dec-16 11:38 AM, Andrew Davidson wrote:
>>> On 2016-12-21 11:01, Warin wrote:
>>>> So the governance is irrelevant to the issue ... the area is
>>>> managed by
>>>> 'something' ..that 'something'  should be treated the same way in OSM
>>>> for the same function.
>>>
>>> The area is managed by the State of New South Wales and there is
>>> already a admin_level 4 boundary marking that out.
>>>
>>
>> Taken to the extreme councils are subject to the governance by the State
>> of New South Wales.
>
> Obviously. They are entirely a creation of a State government act.
>
>> For example the amalgamation of councils, placing certain councils into
>> governance by an unelected official all done by the State Government.
>
> So what? The local government authority still exists even if the
> council is being run by an administrator. Admin_level 6 means that
> there is a local government authority in place, not that it is
> democratically elected.
>
>>
>> These 'unincorporated areas' have some part of the gobermint
>> administering them ... as such the have an entity preforming at least
>> some of the actions of a 'local council' (building approvals for
>> example).
>> The most logical place to have that data in under the 'local government'
>> section.
>>
>
> We're not mapping with the administrative boundary the areas where
> there are garbage services, building approvals are required, or the
> streets have kerbs and gutters.

What are the characteristics of a 'local council'? (don't answer, read on)


> We're mapping where there is a local government authority in place,
> and, as it says on the box 'unincorporated area', there is no local
> government authority in these areas.

There is an authority that performs the role of a 'local council' in
these areas ... I don't care what it is called.
There is in effect a 'local council' there, it is not 'no mans' land',
the 'wild west' etc.



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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Andrew Davidson-3
On 2016-12-21 15:30, Warin wrote:
>
> There is an authority that performs the role of a 'local council' in
> these areas ... I don't care what it is called.
> There is in effect a 'local council' there, it is not 'no mans' land',
> the 'wild west' etc.
>

Nice straw man there... Who said that no council equals wild west?

Clearly I'm having trouble making this simple enough. So instead have a
read of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area

then have a read of this:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/77214EF6765D0541CA2578D40012CF2E?opendocument

Then think about the title of this thread which is in effect asking how
do I map a local government area with no local government?

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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Daniel O'Connor
In reply to this post by Andrew Davidson-3
Just want to point out the advice from the wiki:

Don't map your local legislation, if not bound to objects in reality
Things such as local traffic rules should only be mapped through the objects which represent these rules on the ground, e.g. a traffic sign, road surface marking. Other rules that can not be seen in some way should not be mapped, as they are not universally verifiable.

Can you physically define it? Yes
From survey? .... maybe.

I think getting into the details of who or what administers something is irrelevant; or at least highly marginal compared to the is it ground truthable? parts of it.








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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Andrew Davidson-3
On 2016-12-21 15:57, Daniel O'Connor wrote:

> Just want to point out the advice from the wiki:
>
> /Don't map your local legislation, if not bound to objects in reality/
> /Things such as local traffic rules should only be mapped through the
> objects which represent these rules on the ground, e.g. a traffic sign,
> road surface marking. Other rules that can not be seen in some way
> should not be mapped, as they are not universally verifiable./
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area>
> Can you physically define it? Yes
> From survey? .... maybe.
>
> I think getting into the details of /who/ or /what/ administers
> something is irrelevant; or at least highly marginal compared to the /is
> it ground truthable?/ parts of it.
>

Straw men seem to be popular this afternoon. The question is not whether
or not you map an unincorporated area but how should you map it?

I'm saying that using an admin_level 6 boundary (which is supposed to
enclose an LGA) is not the correct way to map these areas. They should
be mapped by mapping all of the LGAs. By doing so the unincorporated
areas are then represented as those within the admin_level 4 boundary
but outside of any admin_level 6 boundary.

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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Warin
On 21-Dec-16 04:09 PM, Andrew Davidson wrote:

> On 2016-12-21 15:57, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
>> Just want to point out the advice from the wiki:
>>
>> /Don't map your local legislation, if not bound to objects in reality/
>> /Things such as local traffic rules should only be mapped through the
>> objects which represent these rules on the ground, e.g. a traffic sign,
>> road surface marking. Other rules that can not be seen in some way
>> should not be mapped, as they are not universally verifiable./
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area>
>> Can you physically define it? Yes
>> From survey? .... maybe.
>>
>> I think getting into the details of /who/ or /what/ administers
>> something is irrelevant; or at least highly marginal compared to the /is
>> it ground truthable?/ parts of it.
>>
>
> Straw men seem to be popular this afternoon. The question is not
> whether or not you map an unincorporated area but how should you map it?
>
> I'm saying that using an admin_level 6 boundary (which is supposed to
> enclose an LGA) is not the correct way to map these areas. They should
> be mapped by mapping all of the LGAs. By doing so the unincorporated
> areas are then represented as those within the admin_level 4 boundary
> but outside of any admin_level 6 boundary.

Then how do you then separate out the TWO  'unincorporated areas' in NSW ??



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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Daniel O'Connor
In reply to this post by Andrew Davidson-3

Straw men seem to be popular this afternoon. The question is not whether or not you map an unincorporated area but how should you map it?

One of your first actions was deletion from what I understand of the changesets, after a brief look.

Until now you havent conveyed that message (your concern is how to map) well.

Consider using more open ended, less accusing language, you might find a better outcome. Nobody here has a goal of making the map worse.

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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Andrew Davidson-3
In reply to this post by Warin
On 2016-12-21 16:19, Warin wrote:
>
> Then how do you then separate out the TWO  'unincorporated areas' in NSW ??
>


I don't care...provided that you don't use an admin_level 6 boundary.
May I suggest admin_level=-6 ?

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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Warin
In reply to this post by Warin
On 21-Dec-16 04:19 PM, Warin wrote:

> On 21-Dec-16 04:09 PM, Andrew Davidson wrote:
>> On 2016-12-21 15:57, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
>>> Just want to point out the advice from the wiki:
>>>
>>> /Don't map your local legislation, if not bound to objects in reality/
>>> /Things such as local traffic rules should only be mapped through the
>>> objects which represent these rules on the ground, e.g. a traffic sign,
>>> road surface marking. Other rules that can not be seen in some way
>>> should not be mapped, as they are not universally verifiable./
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area>
>>> Can you physically define it? Yes
>>> From survey? .... maybe.
>>>
>>> I think getting into the details of /who/ or /what/ administers
>>> something is irrelevant; or at least highly marginal compared to the
>>> /is
>>> it ground truthable?/ parts of it.
>>>
>>
>> Straw men seem to be popular this afternoon. The question is not
>> whether or not you map an unincorporated area but how should you map it?
>>
>> I'm saying that using an admin_level 6 boundary (which is supposed to
>> enclose an LGA) is not the correct way to map these areas. They
>> should be mapped by mapping all of the LGAs. By doing so the
>> unincorporated areas are then represented as those within the
>> admin_level 4 boundary but outside of any admin_level 6 boundary.
>
> Then how do you then separate out the TWO  'unincorporated areas' in
> NSW ??
>
:-[
Opps .. line on a map that does not represent what I though it did ....
only one in NSW... on the mainland.

Victoria looks to have a number of them though .. so I think the basic
question is valid.

How are 'unincorporated areas' to be entered into OSM if not through
level 6 boundaries ... I note that they share the boundaries of other
level 6 entries. It would be simplest and easiest to accept them as
level 6, in the same way that territories are the same level as states.

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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Andrew Davidson-3
On 2016-12-21 16:28, Warin wrote:
>>
> :-[
> Opps .. line on a map that does not represent what I though it did ....
> only one in NSW... on the mainland.
>

Nah, you were right the first time. Lord Howe Island is unincorporated.

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Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

Warin
In reply to this post by Andrew Davidson-3
Hummm
How about looking at it from a data consumers view point?
Who would use boundary level 6  and what for?

A resident/occupier/potential purchaser/developer may want to know who
is the relevant authority for a particular property ...
A new employee many want confirmation of the boundaries of the authority
they are working for.
  I suppose you could ask a real estate agent (joke) or look in OSM ...
If you are in one of these 'unincorporated areas' then with Andrew's'
'rule' you won't get an answer.. not much help.

I would think that the 'rule' is easily expanded to include
unincorporated areas.
What is/are  the objection/s to this expansion? Other than 'it is not in
the wiki'.

  On 21-Dec-16 11:35 AM, Andrew Davidson wrote:

> It's pretty simple:
>
> 1. Admin level 6 boundaries are supposed to enclose a "Local
> Government Authority".
>
> 2. In NSW the only form of "Local Government Authority" are councils
> incorporated under the Local Government Act.
>
> 3. The areas covered by these councils are "incorporated areas".
>
> 4. The three polygons in the LPI dataset labelled "UNINCORPORATED"
> represent areas that are not in the "incorporated areas" and therefore
> have no "Local Government Authority".
>
> 5. You don't put boundaries around things that don't exist.

Unincorporated areas exit.
They form a similar role to 'Local Councils'.
The areas do not overlap, in fact sharing the same ways/part boundaries.
There would be no data conflict in adding these to boundary level 6.

>
> QED.
>
> The SA case is complicated by the existence of the Outback Communities
> Authority. According to the Office of Local Government it's not included:
>
> http://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/local_govt.
>
> Which is supported by the fact that the name includes the phrase
> "unincorporated area".
>
> On 2016-12-21 09:15, cleary wrote:
>>
>> I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
>> Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
>> currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
>> another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
>> response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
>> that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
>> Wales" because it was not administered by a council.
>>
>> Both of these "unincorporated" areas are defined and designated in the
>> respective government datasets, that is (1) South Australian Government
>> Data - Local Government Areas and (2) LPI NSW Administrative Boundaries
>> - Local Government.
>>
>> The issue for the other mapper appears to be the acceptability of the
>> form of governance of these areas. While the majority of local
>> government areas are administered by councils, this model works less
>> well in areas which are sparsely populated. The Pastoral Unincorporated
>> Area in South Australia is administered by a designated authority, the
>> Outback Communities Authority, which is not a council either in name or
>> in the usual sense. I am aware of three other designated local
>> government areas in South Australia that do not have councils - two are
>> administered by the indigenous residents although they appear to have
>> some form of executive committee to make routine decisions. One
>> designated local government area does not appear to have a council and I
>> have not ascertained the form of governance.  In the Unincorporated Area
>> of New South Wales, responsibilities are dispersed and do not rest with
>> any one body, for example roads are managed by the Roads and Maritime
>> Services (state authority) and there are local advisory committees in
>> some isolated communities.
>>
>> The key issue is whether the form of governance in an area should
>> determine whether or not areas should be mapped in OSM. It seems to me
>> to be akin to removing Northern Territory and ACT on the basis that they
>> have different forms of governance and are not proper states!
>>
>> The comments on the Pastoral Unincorporated Area can be viewed at
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44528330#map=12/-34.3720/140.4687
>> The relation for the Pastoral Unincorporated Area is at
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6804541
>> The deleted relation for Unincorporated Area of New South Wales is at
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5892272 and refers to Changeset
>> #44531564
>>
>> Do other members of the OSM community have a view on whether the form of
>> governance should determine what areas are shown on the map and
>> particularly whether local government areas should be included if they
>> are not administered by councils.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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