London locations

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London locations

Mike Ryan-3
All

Does anyone know if there is a datafile of London locations and lat/long points?
ie,
Abbey Wood, 51.491123, 0.120935
Acton, 51.502907, -0.280165
Addington, 51.342973, -0.063373
Aldgate, 51.514200, -0.075749
Aldwych, 51.512656, -0.118545
Angel Islington, 51.532868, -0.106048
Archway, 51.565414, -0.135414
Ashford, 51.436567, -0.467940
Baker Street, 51.522493, -0.157594
Balham, 51.443454, -0.152804
Banstead, 51.329424, -0.212912
Bank, 51.513368, -0.089202
etc

If not, I'm happy to put something together myself. However, before I start down
this road, can anyone advise what I should use as the source for my data? I
could use streetmap or google maps to randomly pick on any point in the Acton
area, as an example, but I assume it then becomes another derivative work.

I *think* I can just about make out where things are on openstreetmap. Can I
click on a point and get it to tell me where I am lat/long-wise?

Would be a shame to put all the work into doing something like this and not be
able to release it into the wild 8-)

Cheers

Mike

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Re: London locations

Steve Coast
google for placeopedia and the mysociety Gaze service and let us know
the results?

* @ 04/10/05 11:07:15 AM [hidden email] wrote:

> All
>
> Does anyone know if there is a datafile of London locations and lat/long points?
> ie,
> Abbey Wood, 51.491123, 0.120935
> Acton, 51.502907, -0.280165
> Addington, 51.342973, -0.063373
> Aldgate, 51.514200, -0.075749
> Aldwych, 51.512656, -0.118545
> Angel Islington, 51.532868, -0.106048
> Archway, 51.565414, -0.135414
> Ashford, 51.436567, -0.467940
> Baker Street, 51.522493, -0.157594
> Balham, 51.443454, -0.152804
> Banstead, 51.329424, -0.212912
> Bank, 51.513368, -0.089202
> etc
>
> If not, I'm happy to put something together myself. However, before I start down
> this road, can anyone advise what I should use as the source for my data? I
> could use streetmap or google maps to randomly pick on any point in the Acton
> area, as an example, but I assume it then becomes another derivative work.
>
> I *think* I can just about make out where things are on openstreetmap. Can I
> click on a point and get it to tell me where I am lat/long-wise?
>
> Would be a shame to put all the work into doing something like this and not be
> able to release it into the wild 8-)
>
> Cheers
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openstreetmap mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap

have fun,

SteveC [hidden email] http://www.asklater.com/steve/

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RE: London locations

ANDY ROBINSON-2
In reply to this post by Mike Ryan-3
Mike

In edit mode, the lat & long are displayed at the bottom of the window when
the mouse moves over the map.

Andy Robinson
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Ryan
Sent: 04 October 2005 12:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Openstreetmap] London locations

snip..

I *think* I can just about make out where things are on openstreetmap. Can I
click on a point and get it to tell me where I am lat/long-wise?

...snip



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Re: London locations

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Mike Ryan-3
Quoting Mike Ryan <[hidden email]>:

> Does anyone know if there is a datafile of London locations and lat/long
> points?

I've got the beginnings of one (using the OS National Grid, not lat/long, but
could be converted), created by myself from out-of-copyright sources. I can
mail it in a couple of days when I'm back at my home machine, if you like.

Richard

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Re: London locations

Mike Ryan-3
Richard,

That would be great. I'll update and post the results back on the web

Andy,

Thanks for the tip about the editing

Steve

Surely the placeopedia info is derived from google maps and therefore
unusuable?

However, I did notice that on wikipedia it has the OS gride reference.
Can this
be converted to lat/long and then be used?

Cheers

Mike

Quoting [hidden email]:

> Quoting Mike Ryan <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Does anyone know if there is a datafile of London locations and lat/long
>> points?
>
> I've got the beginnings of one (using the OS National Grid, not lat/long, but
> could be converted), created by myself from out-of-copyright sources. I can
> mail it in a couple of days when I'm back at my home machine, if you like.
>
> Richard
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openstreetmap mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap
>



Regards

Mike Ryan

Redmar Consulting Ltd
W +44 (0)20 7702 1671
M +44 (0)7958 750139
mailto:[hidden email]
http://www.redmar.com

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Re: London locations

Steve Coast
* @ 04/10/05 11:39:37 AM [hidden email] wrote:

> Richard,
>
> That would be great. I'll update and post the results back on the web
>
> Andy,
>
> Thanks for the tip about the editing
>
> Steve
>
> Surely the placeopedia info is derived from google maps and therefore
> unusuable?

Yeah, good point

> However, I did notice that on wikipedia it has the OS gride reference.
> Can this
> be converted to lat/long and then be used?

yes fairly simply

as long as the grid ref is Free also

> Cheers
>
> Mike
>
> Quoting [hidden email]:
>
> >Quoting Mike Ryan <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >>Does anyone know if there is a datafile of London locations and lat/long
> >>points?
> >
> >I've got the beginnings of one (using the OS National Grid, not lat/long,
> >but
> >could be converted), created by myself from out-of-copyright sources. I can
> >mail it in a couple of days when I'm back at my home machine, if you like.
> >
> >Richard
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Openstreetmap mailing list
> >[hidden email]
> >http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap
> >
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Mike Ryan
>
> Redmar Consulting Ltd
> W +44 (0)20 7702 1671
> M +44 (0)7958 750139
> mailto:[hidden email]
> http://www.redmar.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openstreetmap mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap

have fun,

SteveC [hidden email] http://www.asklater.com/steve/

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Re: London locations

Erik Johansson-2
In reply to this post by Mike Ryan-3
2005/10/4, Mike Ryan <[hidden email]>:
> However, I did notice that on wikipedia it has the OS gride reference.
> Can this
> be converted to lat/long and then be used?

I guess every country uses their own grid reference method, this one
might be correct for OS grid ref.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/Converting_to_WGS84

/Erik

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Re: London locations

Erik Johansson-2
In reply to this post by Steve Coast
2005/10/4, SteveC <[hidden email]>:
> * @ 04/10/05 11:39:37 AM [hidden email] wrote:
> > Surely the placeopedia info is derived from google maps and therefore
> > unusuable?
>
> Yeah, good point

How can points you pickout from a map be derived work?  They are just
references to a map the is copyrighted, but that map uses a well known
system for referencing points.

I don't buy it.. Placeopedia should be free.

--
/Erik

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Re: London locations

Steve Coast
* @ 09/10/05 07:56:32 PM [hidden email] wrote:

> 2005/10/4, SteveC <[hidden email]>:
> > * @ 04/10/05 11:39:37 AM [hidden email] wrote:
> > > Surely the placeopedia info is derived from google maps and therefore
> > > unusuable?
> >
> > Yeah, good point
>
> How can points you pickout from a map be derived work?  They are just
> references to a map the is copyrighted, but that map uses a well known
> system for referencing points.

As you don't believe me, I can only say speak to a copyright lawyer.
That's what I did.

> I don't buy it.. Placeopedia should be free.

I agree, but 'should be' is a long was from 'is'.

have fun,

SteveC [hidden email] http://www.asklater.com/steve/

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Re: London locations

Daniel Haran
What's this about placeopedia? The source code is free, the data is
syndicated and free. PoP was built explicitly for sharing, and what
they are doing is not against the Google TOS.

On 10/9/05, SteveC <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * @ 09/10/05 07:56:32 PM [hidden email] wrote:
> > 2005/10/4, SteveC <[hidden email]>:
> > > * @ 04/10/05 11:39:37 AM [hidden email] wrote:
> > > > Surely the placeopedia info is derived from google maps and therefore
> > > > unusuable?
> > >
> > > Yeah, good point
> >
> > How can points you pickout from a map be derived work?  They are just
> > references to a map the is copyrighted, but that map uses a well known
> > system for referencing points.
>
> As you don't believe me, I can only say speak to a copyright lawyer.
> That's what I did.
>
> > I don't buy it.. Placeopedia should be free.
>
> I agree, but 'should be' is a long was from 'is'.
>
> have fun,
>
> SteveC [hidden email] http://www.asklater.com/steve/
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap
>

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Re: London locations

Richard Fairhurst
On 9 Oct 2005, at 21:56, Daniel Haran wrote:

> What's this about placeopedia? The source code is free, the data is
> syndicated and free. PoP was built explicitly for sharing, and what
> they are doing is not against the Google TOS.

Steve is right. If you georeference a place by using a copyrighted map,
such as Google Maps, you are creating a derived work from that map. [1]
Ergo the data is not free. [2]

Richard

[1] ...under the prevalent interpretation of UK law. You are of course
welcome to pay a lawyer to come up with a less sucky interpretation. :)
[2] Whether TeleAtlas choose to sue is their business. But that doesn't
make it free.


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Re: London locations

Steve Coast
In reply to this post by Daniel Haran
* @ 09/10/05 08:56:35 PM [hidden email] wrote:
> What's this about placeopedia? The source code is free, the data is
> syndicated and free. PoP was built explicitly for sharing, and what
> they are doing is not against the Google TOS.

They break the TOS all over the place.

The most obvious one they break:

'You may not... ...make derivative works of the imagery, in whole or in
part.'

Just because google put the stuff up doesn't make it some wonderful
panacea of freeness where we can do what we like with it. You'll see
they say: 'You may not delete or in any manner alter the copyright,
trademark, or other proprietary rights notices'. This means they don't
own all the rights to the data, and you have to respect that.

Placeopedia is (for the points entered using gmaps) a derived work, as
are pretty much every other thing that uses google maps for input of
data.


There *is* a flip side: it's unlikely google will call you in on the
miss-use, and it's unlikely their data providers will either any time
soon.

But don't be in any illusion how the data providers feel about all this,
they're not happy and they do take people down all the time. Ask The
Royal Mail's Revenue Protection Officer, or anyone at the OS. They and
others are losing business since people are using gmaps instead of
buying their data.

Again, don't believe me, go ask a copyright lawyer.

Ask them why freethepostcode.org doesn't use google maps for input of
postcode locations, or why openstreetmap doesn't use it for street
locations. Placeopedia is an almanac, not much different from either of
the above.

have fun,

SteveC [hidden email] http://www.asklater.com/steve/

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Re: London locations

Lars Aronsson
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> Steve is right. If you georeference a place by using a
> copyrighted map, such as Google Maps, you are creating a derived
> work from that map. [1] Ergo the data is not free. [2]
>
> [1] ...under the prevalent interpretation of UK law. You are of
> course welcome to pay a lawyer to come up with a less sucky
> interpretation. :)

What sources do you have for this statement?  It sounds highly
improbable.

Look at the information in this box:

  +--------------------------------------+
  |  Glasgow is a city, centered around  |
  |  the coordinate 55.858° N, 4.243° W  |
  +--------------------------------------+

Was that information "georeferenced" from Google Maps or some
other source?  How is my distribution of the information in that
box a violation of anybody's copyright to some old (or new) map?


--
  Lars Aronsson ([hidden email])
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: London locations

Daniel Haran
<RANT>
Lars,

It seems stupid to me too. UK copyright law seems outrageously absurd
to me, and disobedience seems like the only moral thing to do. For
crying out loud: even their electoral boundaries are copyrighted. Last
I checked, copyright was there to protect creative expression, not
facts.

Their laws are shamefully archaic (it's nearly as bad in Canada!). I
wouldn't mind government agencies copyrighting maps as long as the
layers were free.

Yet as Steve said, I think it highly unlikely Google will try to sue
anyone over this type of use.

I think we all agree that the UK interpretation of the law is rather
sucky (as Richard put it)... where we differ is in our tolerance for
rule-breaking. I would have no problem contributing to Placeopedia and
yourhistoryhere even if I were a UK national.

Hoping your laws are saner,

Daniel.

On 10/10/05, Lars Aronsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>
> > Steve is right. If you georeference a place by using a
> > copyrighted map, such as Google Maps, you are creating a derived
> > work from that map. [1] Ergo the data is not free. [2]
> >
> > [1] ...under the prevalent interpretation of UK law. You are of
> > course welcome to pay a lawyer to come up with a less sucky
> > interpretation. :)
>
> What sources do you have for this statement?  It sounds highly
> improbable.
>
> Look at the information in this box:
>
>  +--------------------------------------+
>  |  Glasgow is a city, centered around  |
>  |  the coordinate 55.858° N, 4.243° W  |
>  +--------------------------------------+
>
> Was that information "georeferenced" from Google Maps or some
> other source?  How is my distribution of the information in that
> box a violation of anybody's copyright to some old (or new) map?
>
>
> --
>  Lars Aronsson ([hidden email])
>  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: London locations

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Lars Aronsson
(Please prefix any and all lines in this reply with an implied :( - I'm
not trying to justify the situation, just explaining how it is in the
UK.)

On 10 Oct 2005, at 05:36, Lars Aronsson wrote:

> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>
>> Steve is right. If you georeference a place by using a
>> copyrighted map, such as Google Maps, you are creating a derived
>> work from that map. [1] Ergo the data is not free. [2]
>>
>> [1] ...under the prevalent interpretation of UK law. You are of
>> course welcome to pay a lawyer to come up with a less sucky
>> interpretation. :)
>
> What sources do you have for this statement?  It sounds highly
> improbable.

Copyright, Designs & Patents Act 1988, as subsequently modified by EU
instruments and others:
www.patent.gov.uk/copy/legislation/legislation.pdf is a useful
reference. To take one example off the top of my head (it's early and I
should be going to work...):

TeleAtlas (who provide the relevant Google mapping), and potentially
_their_ suppliers (which most probably means Ordnance Survey), have
database right in the gazetteer used to draw placenames on the Google
map. This is the big database table which contains information like
your Glasgow lat/long for every single town and village in the country,
and OS sell this as a commercial product.

By clicking on a Google map to find a lat/long for a load of towns and
villages referenced in Wikipedia, you are republishing information from
this database. This is a direct contravention of a piece of UK
legislation: "A person infringes database right in a database if,
without the consent of the owner of the right, he extracts or
re-utilises all or a substantial part of the contents of the database."
(Remember the database is owned by TeleAtlas/maybe OS, _not_ Google.)

Daniel's point about electoral boundaries is a useful one. Those
electoral boundaries are derived works, too. They've mostly been
obtained by drawing lines on an Ordnance Survey map, which is
copyrighted. For the local council, there's absolutely no problem in
this, because they get their OS mapping free through the
Pan-Governmental Agreement. It just hobbles any of the rest of us
wanting to do good works with it.

This is exactly why we need Openstreetmap - and as a matter of some
urgency, a 1:1m map which can be used for really simple georeferencing
applications such as this one.

Right now I believe the safest choice is to build such applications on
DCW/VMAP0 rather than Google Maps, sadly.

Richard


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Re: London locations

Jon Stockill
Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> This is exactly why we need Openstreetmap - and as a matter of some
> urgency, a 1:1m map which can be used for really simple georeferencing
> applications such as this one.
>
> Right now I believe the safest choice is to build such applications on
> DCW/VMAP0 rather than Google Maps, sadly.

And the starting point for a place name database should be the Geonet
Nameserver database.

Jon

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Re: London locations

Lars Aronsson
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> TeleAtlas (who provide the relevant Google mapping), and
> potentially _their_ suppliers (which most probably means
> Ordnance Survey), have database right in the gazetteer used to
> draw placenames on the Google map. This is the big database
> table which contains information like your Glasgow lat/long for
> every single town and village in the country, and OS sell this
> as a commercial product.

Ah, yes, now you are talking database rights.  That kind of
protection is valid if I copy a larger number of facts, but not if
I copy a single piece of information (a single coordinate).  
Furthermore, I must copy the information, at least down to a few
decimal places.  If I just look at the map and estimate the
coordinates, I'm not copying the informations in the database.

If you can provide me with a U.K. court case where database rights
have been claimed and *upheld* in a broader sense than this, I'd
be interested.

Furthermore, database rights expire sooner than the life+70 years
term that is valid for copyright.  I think they expire 15 years
after publication in Sweden, but I'm not sure how it can vary
between countries.

> "A person infringes database right in a database if, without the
> consent of the owner of the right, he extracts or re-utilises
> all or a substantial part of the contents of the database."

"All or substantial part" and "extracts or re-utilises" are
important phrases here.  They do not apply if I *estimate* one or
a few coordinates, which is what we're talking about here.

The really interesting case, that will prove if "database rights"
lawyers can out-think the Internet generation, or if it is the
other way around, is this: If I copy just a few facts from some
database, and you copy just a few other facts from the same
database, and thousands of us come together at a fact swap-fest,
will the resulting smorgasbord of facts constitute an infringement
of the database rights?  We should call this test ... "Wikipedia".

> Daniel's point about electoral boundaries is a useful one. Those
> electoral boundaries are derived works, too. They've mostly been
> obtained by drawing lines on an Ordnance Survey map, which is
> copyrighted. For the local council, there's absolutely no
> problem in this, because they get their OS mapping free through
> the Pan-Governmental Agreement. It just hobbles any of the rest
> of us wanting to do good works with it.

So are there any U.K. court cases where the O.S. has defended
their claims of copyright to electoral boundaries?

Electoral boundaries are just a list (database) of coordinates, so
they cannot be covered by traditional copyright, but they can be
subject to database rights.  Do electoral boundaries change more
often than database rights expire?  (Say, 15 years.)


--
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  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: London locations

frank mohr
In reply to this post by Daniel Haran
Daniel Haran wrote:
> <RANT>
> Lars,
>
> It seems stupid to me too. UK copyright law seems outrageously absurd
> to me, and disobedience seems like the only moral thing to do. For
> crying out loud: even their electoral boundaries are copyrighted. Last
> I checked, copyright was there to protect creative expression, not
> facts.

whith all those recent changes, most countries copyright law gets
more and more absurd.
but i don't think disobedience is a solution
(except if you have enouth money to pay lawyers for all
court instances to defend your position)

facts are still not copyrighted. but in the end it's the
courts interpretation whats "use of facts" and whats
"use of a compilation of facts" (database copyright)

frank

       

       
               
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Re: London locations

Mike Ryan-3
In reply to this post by Lars Aronsson
All

Have a look at this thread in the google maps newsgroup
http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Maps-API/browse_thread/thread/7999f7ebd4cb8694/79ebbb83878c0fc3?q=uk&rnum=5#79ebbb83878c0fc3

The second last post from "evilc" suggested he has submitted a Freedom or
Information request to get the data regarding the county boundaries, which is
along the lines of where this thread seems to be going

Rgds

Mike

Quoting Lars Aronsson <[hidden email]>:

> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>
>> TeleAtlas (who provide the relevant Google mapping), and
>> potentially _their_ suppliers (which most probably means
>> Ordnance Survey), have database right in the gazetteer used to
>> draw placenames on the Google map. This is the big database
>> table which contains information like your Glasgow lat/long for
>> every single town and village in the country, and OS sell this
>> as a commercial product.
>
> Ah, yes, now you are talking database rights.  That kind of
> protection is valid if I copy a larger number of facts, but not if
> I copy a single piece of information (a single coordinate).
> Furthermore, I must copy the information, at least down to a few
> decimal places.  If I just look at the map and estimate the
> coordinates, I'm not copying the informations in the database.
>
> If you can provide me with a U.K. court case where database rights
> have been claimed and *upheld* in a broader sense than this, I'd
> be interested.
>
> Furthermore, database rights expire sooner than the life+70 years
> term that is valid for copyright.  I think they expire 15 years
> after publication in Sweden, but I'm not sure how it can vary
> between countries.
>
>> "A person infringes database right in a database if, without the
>> consent of the owner of the right, he extracts or re-utilises
>> all or a substantial part of the contents of the database."
>
> "All or substantial part" and "extracts or re-utilises" are
> important phrases here.  They do not apply if I *estimate* one or
> a few coordinates, which is what we're talking about here.
>
> The really interesting case, that will prove if "database rights"
> lawyers can out-think the Internet generation, or if it is the
> other way around, is this: If I copy just a few facts from some
> database, and you copy just a few other facts from the same
> database, and thousands of us come together at a fact swap-fest,
> will the resulting smorgasbord of facts constitute an infringement
> of the database rights?  We should call this test ... "Wikipedia".
>
>> Daniel's point about electoral boundaries is a useful one. Those
>> electoral boundaries are derived works, too. They've mostly been
>> obtained by drawing lines on an Ordnance Survey map, which is
>> copyrighted. For the local council, there's absolutely no
>> problem in this, because they get their OS mapping free through
>> the Pan-Governmental Agreement. It just hobbles any of the rest
>> of us wanting to do good works with it.
>
> So are there any U.K. court cases where the O.S. has defended
> their claims of copyright to electoral boundaries?
>
> Electoral boundaries are just a list (database) of coordinates, so
> they cannot be covered by traditional copyright, but they can be
> subject to database rights.  Do electoral boundaries change more
> often than database rights expire?  (Say, 15 years.)
>
>
> --
>  Lars Aronsson ([hidden email])
>  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openstreetmap mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap
>



Regards

Mike Ryan

Redmar Consulting Ltd
W +44 (0)20 7702 1671
M +44 (0)7958 750139
mailto:[hidden email]
http://www.redmar.com

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RE: London locations

ANDY ROBINSON-2
And here is the licence for boundary information from ONS. Derived from the
OS of course!

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/Census2001/terms_and_conditions.asp


Andy Robinson
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Ryan
Sent: 10 October 2005 09:27
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] London locations

All

Have a look at this thread in the google maps newsgroup
http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Maps-API/browse_thread/thread/7999f7eb
d4cb8694/79ebbb83878c0fc3?q=uk&rnum=5#79ebbb83878c0fc3

The second last post from "evilc" suggested he has submitted a Freedom or
Information request to get the data regarding the county boundaries, which
is
along the lines of where this thread seems to be going

Rgds

Mike

Quoting Lars Aronsson <[hidden email]>:

> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>
>> TeleAtlas (who provide the relevant Google mapping), and
>> potentially _their_ suppliers (which most probably means
>> Ordnance Survey), have database right in the gazetteer used to
>> draw placenames on the Google map. This is the big database
>> table which contains information like your Glasgow lat/long for
>> every single town and village in the country, and OS sell this
>> as a commercial product.
>
> Ah, yes, now you are talking database rights.  That kind of
> protection is valid if I copy a larger number of facts, but not if
> I copy a single piece of information (a single coordinate).
> Furthermore, I must copy the information, at least down to a few
> decimal places.  If I just look at the map and estimate the
> coordinates, I'm not copying the informations in the database.
>
> If you can provide me with a U.K. court case where database rights
> have been claimed and *upheld* in a broader sense than this, I'd
> be interested.
>
> Furthermore, database rights expire sooner than the life+70 years
> term that is valid for copyright.  I think they expire 15 years
> after publication in Sweden, but I'm not sure how it can vary
> between countries.
>
>> "A person infringes database right in a database if, without the
>> consent of the owner of the right, he extracts or re-utilises
>> all or a substantial part of the contents of the database."
>
> "All or substantial part" and "extracts or re-utilises" are
> important phrases here.  They do not apply if I *estimate* one or
> a few coordinates, which is what we're talking about here.
>
> The really interesting case, that will prove if "database rights"
> lawyers can out-think the Internet generation, or if it is the
> other way around, is this: If I copy just a few facts from some
> database, and you copy just a few other facts from the same
> database, and thousands of us come together at a fact swap-fest,
> will the resulting smorgasbord of facts constitute an infringement
> of the database rights?  We should call this test ... "Wikipedia".
>
>> Daniel's point about electoral boundaries is a useful one. Those
>> electoral boundaries are derived works, too. They've mostly been
>> obtained by drawing lines on an Ordnance Survey map, which is
>> copyrighted. For the local council, there's absolutely no
>> problem in this, because they get their OS mapping free through
>> the Pan-Governmental Agreement. It just hobbles any of the rest
>> of us wanting to do good works with it.
>
> So are there any U.K. court cases where the O.S. has defended
> their claims of copyright to electoral boundaries?
>
> Electoral boundaries are just a list (database) of coordinates, so
> they cannot be covered by traditional copyright, but they can be
> subject to database rights.  Do electoral boundaries change more
> often than database rights expire?  (Say, 15 years.)
>
>
> --
>  Lars Aronsson ([hidden email])
>  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openstreetmap mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap
>



Regards

Mike Ryan

Redmar Consulting Ltd
W +44 (0)20 7702 1671
M +44 (0)7958 750139
mailto:[hidden email]
http://www.redmar.com

_______________________________________________
Openstreetmap mailing list
[hidden email]
http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap



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12