Mapping Indigenous Place Names

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Mapping Indigenous Place Names

David Dean
Hi everyone,

I've done a little research, and added the following section to the Australian Tagging Guidelines at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Places, and the Multilingual names page at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names:

Please use the name:aus (aus is the general ISO639-2 code for Australian Aboriginal Languages) to indicate the indigenous names of places. It would be useful to do this even when the generally used name is indigenous, to allow for a potential indigenous rendering of our maps.

I hope we can all agree that this is an excellent idea, and starting adding these everywhere we can. Here's my first go: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55769062.

So far we currently have about 4 name:aus tags in the whole country (see https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/voW). We can do better that that!

- David

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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

Andy Mabbett
On 26 January 2018 at 12:09, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've done a little research, and added the following

> Please use the name:aus (aus is the general ISO639-2 code for Australian
> Aboriginal Languages) to indicate the indigenous names of places.

While I strongly support the recording of indigenous names, with a
language code, surely more specific codes should be used where
possible? For instance, 'nys' for Noongar (in WA)?

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@pigsonthewing
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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

David Dean
Andy,

Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be used.

Do you know where a list of these language codes for Australian Indigenous languages might be found? It took me long enough to find the aus code on https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-2_codes. 'nys' isn't listed on either of them.

I'm no expert (I'm trying to learn more), but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_languages seems to suggest that most of Australia can be considered to belong to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pama%E2%80%93Nyungan_languages, but I can't seem to find any sort of language code for that group.

- David

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 at 22:28 Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 26 January 2018 at 12:09, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've done a little research, and added the following

> Please use the name:aus (aus is the general ISO639-2 code for Australian
> Aboriginal Languages) to indicate the indigenous names of places.

While I strongly support the recording of indigenous names, with a
language code, surely more specific codes should be used where
possible? For instance, 'nys' for Noongar (in WA)?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

Michael-7

You need :-

 

http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/codes.asp

 

Don’t forget to select ‘N’ as it only shows the ones starting with the letter selected.

 

 

From: David Dean [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, 26 January 2018 10:34 PM
To: Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]>
Cc: OSM Australian Talk List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping Indigenous Place Names

 

Andy,

 

Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be used.

 

Do you know where a list of these language codes for Australian Indigenous languages might be found? It took me long enough to find the aus code on https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-2_codes. 'nys' isn't listed on either of them.

 

I'm no expert (I'm trying to learn more), but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_languages seems to suggest that most of Australia can be considered to belong to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pama%E2%80%93Nyungan_languages, but I can't seem to find any sort of language code for that group.

 

- David

 

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 at 22:28 Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 26 January 2018 at 12:09, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've done a little research, and added the following

> Please use the name:aus (aus is the general ISO639-2 code for Australian
> Aboriginal Languages) to indicate the indigenous names of places.

While I strongly support the recording of indigenous names, with a
language code, surely more specific codes should be used where
possible? For instance, 'nys' for Noongar (in WA)?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

Warin
While Australia has some 300 native languages, Papua New Guinea has some 800...

Yes I support entering the native language .. possibly both name:aus and a more specific language code where known (a duplication)?
There are probably places where language groups over lap and there may be more than one name. Humm which one to use as name:aus could be a problem.

Should the English language ones be recorded as name:eng=Ayers Rock ?
I think they may be entered as alt_name, possibly they also should be recorded as name:eng too (a duplication).

The wiki needs to be changed to reflect this.. after some discussion.



On 27-Jan-18 02:23 AM, Michael wrote:

You need :-

 

http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/codes.asp

 

Don’t forget to select ‘N’ as it only shows the ones starting with the letter selected.

 

 

From: David Dean [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, 26 January 2018 10:34 PM
To: Andy Mabbett [hidden email]
Cc: OSM Australian Talk List [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping Indigenous Place Names

 

Andy,

 

Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be used.

 

Do you know where a list of these language codes for Australian Indigenous languages might be found? It took me long enough to find the aus code on https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-2_codes. 'nys' isn't listed on either of them.

 

I'm no expert (I'm trying to learn more), but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_languages seems to suggest that most of Australia can be considered to belong to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pama%E2%80%93Nyungan_languages, but I can't seem to find any sort of language code for that group.

 

- David

 

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 at 22:28 Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 26 January 2018 at 12:09, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've done a little research, and added the following

> Please use the name:aus (aus is the general ISO639-2 code for Australian
> Aboriginal Languages) to indicate the indigenous names of places.

While I strongly support the recording of indigenous names, with a
language code, surely more specific codes should be used where
possible? For instance, 'nys' for Noongar (in WA)?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by David Dean
On 26 January 2018 at 23:33, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:
Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be used.

Indeed Tasmania uses a lot of name:xtz eg. http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/123026960 and https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/vql, Uluru uses name:pjt, hopefully there are a lot more. I think name:aus should only really be used if you don't know which more specific ISO code to use.

On 27 January 2018 at 07:53, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Should the English language ones be recorded as name:eng=Ayers Rock ?
I think they may be entered as alt_name, possibly they also should be recorded as name:eng too (a duplication). 

name:eng and name:en are the same thing according to https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes_name.php?code_ID=130

The English name of Uluru is Uluru not Ayers Rock. I'd be in favour of moving Ayers Rock to the old name. official_name could still be "Uluru / Ayers Rock" as that's what's it's officially designated as.

I'd prefer we didn't use name=Uluru (Ayers Rocks) and instead just used name=Uluru as it should be left up to data consumers how they want to display alternate names, with Ayers Rock either as old_name or alt_name.

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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

David Dean
Hey everyone,

Thanks for the great responses. I'm glad I kicked off this thread.

I don't think there is a problem with indicating a name:aus tag if the local aboriginal name for an area/feature is known, but you haven't done further research to find the actual language code applicable.

However, it should be a goal to update all name:aus tags to move them to the appropriate real tags based on the iso639-3 tags. I'm not sure at that stage whether the name:aus tags would be useful to stay or not. Any ideas?

I am pushing this myself, as I want to build a rendering of OSM that is focused on the local indigenous knowledge across the country, but I guess this means I'm going to need to do a bit more work to find out the iso639-3 tags for all indigenous languages in Australia, and maybe even some idea of what tags are local to what areas.

This is clearly not going to be trivial, but what that's worth doing is? :)

- David

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 08:45 Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 26 January 2018 at 23:33, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:
Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be used.

Indeed Tasmania uses a lot of name:xtz eg. http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/123026960 and https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/vql, Uluru uses name:pjt, hopefully there are a lot more. I think name:aus should only really be used if you don't know which more specific ISO code to use.

On 27 January 2018 at 07:53, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Should the English language ones be recorded as name:eng=Ayers Rock ?
I think they may be entered as alt_name, possibly they also should be recorded as name:eng too (a duplication). 

name:eng and name:en are the same thing according to https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes_name.php?code_ID=130

The English name of Uluru is Uluru not Ayers Rock. I'd be in favour of moving Ayers Rock to the old name. official_name could still be "Uluru / Ayers Rock" as that's what's it's officially designated as.

I'd prefer we didn't use name=Uluru (Ayers Rocks) and instead just used name=Uluru as it should be left up to data consumers how they want to display alternate names, with Ayers Rock either as old_name or alt_name.
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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

David Dean
Oh,

And one more thing: At its best OpenStreetMap is about local mappers mapping what is of interest to them, so we should be attempting to engage with out local indigenous community and asking them what their local language is and what features in OSM (or that we can add to OSM) are important to them.

Some of this might stretch the 'verifiable on the ground' rule a little, but I think if there is significant local knowledge, it is fair game for the map.

- David

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 14:03 David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey everyone,

Thanks for the great responses. I'm glad I kicked off this thread.

I don't think there is a problem with indicating a name:aus tag if the local aboriginal name for an area/feature is known, but you haven't done further research to find the actual language code applicable.

However, it should be a goal to update all name:aus tags to move them to the appropriate real tags based on the iso639-3 tags. I'm not sure at that stage whether the name:aus tags would be useful to stay or not. Any ideas?

I am pushing this myself, as I want to build a rendering of OSM that is focused on the local indigenous knowledge across the country, but I guess this means I'm going to need to do a bit more work to find out the iso639-3 tags for all indigenous languages in Australia, and maybe even some idea of what tags are local to what areas.

This is clearly not going to be trivial, but what that's worth doing is? :)

- David

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 08:45 Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 26 January 2018 at 23:33, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:
Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be used.

Indeed Tasmania uses a lot of name:xtz eg. http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/123026960 and https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/vql, Uluru uses name:pjt, hopefully there are a lot more. I think name:aus should only really be used if you don't know which more specific ISO code to use.

On 27 January 2018 at 07:53, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Should the English language ones be recorded as name:eng=Ayers Rock ?
I think they may be entered as alt_name, possibly they also should be recorded as name:eng too (a duplication). 

name:eng and name:en are the same thing according to https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes_name.php?code_ID=130

The English name of Uluru is Uluru not Ayers Rock. I'd be in favour of moving Ayers Rock to the old name. official_name could still be "Uluru / Ayers Rock" as that's what's it's officially designated as.

I'd prefer we didn't use name=Uluru (Ayers Rocks) and instead just used name=Uluru as it should be left up to data consumers how they want to display alternate names, with Ayers Rock either as old_name or alt_name.
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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

Warin
There can be problems with internet connectivity for remote communities .. so getting participation can be difficult.
A local dump of data that can then be used on a server by others can be very beneficial - reduces the remote network load and speeds the locals response times.

Part of  'verifiable on the round' is asking a local.. if it is a local doing the mapping then they are most of the way there.

The  OSMwiki for local languages ..is https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names


On 27-Jan-18 03:08 PM, David Dean wrote:
Oh,

And one more thing: At its best OpenStreetMap is about local mappers mapping what is of interest to them, so we should be attempting to engage with out local indigenous community and asking them what their local language is and what features in OSM (or that we can add to OSM) are important to them.

Some of this might stretch the 'verifiable on the ground' rule a little, but I think if there is significant local knowledge, it is fair game for the map.

- David

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 14:03 David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey everyone,

Thanks for the great responses. I'm glad I kicked off this thread.

I don't think there is a problem with indicating a name:aus tag if the local aboriginal name for an area/feature is known, but you haven't done further research to find the actual language code applicable.

However, it should be a goal to update all name:aus tags to move them to the appropriate real tags based on the iso639-3 tags. I'm not sure at that stage whether the name:aus tags would be useful to stay or not. Any ideas?

I am pushing this myself, as I want to build a rendering of OSM that is focused on the local indigenous knowledge across the country, but I guess this means I'm going to need to do a bit more work to find out the iso639-3 tags for all indigenous languages in Australia, and maybe even some idea of what tags are local to what areas.

This is clearly not going to be trivial, but what that's worth doing is? :)

- David

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 08:45 Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 26 January 2018 at 23:33, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:
Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be used.

Indeed Tasmania uses a lot of name:xtz eg. http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/123026960 and https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/vql, Uluru uses name:pjt, hopefully there are a lot more. I think name:aus should only really be used if you don't know which more specific ISO code to use.

On 27 January 2018 at 07:53, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Should the English language ones be recorded as name:eng=Ayers Rock ?
I think they may be entered as alt_name, possibly they also should be recorded as name:eng too (a duplication). 

name:eng and name:en are the same thing according to https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes_name.php?code_ID=130

The English name of Uluru is Uluru not Ayers Rock. I'd be in favour of moving Ayers Rock to the old name. official_name could still be "Uluru / Ayers Rock" as that's what's it's officially designated as.

I'd prefer we didn't use name=Uluru (Ayers Rocks) and instead just used name=Uluru as it should be left up to data consumers how they want to display alternate names, with Ayers Rock either as old_name or alt_name.
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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

Reg Tydell
In reply to this post by David Dean
Hello all,

By coincidence I noticed a Twitter post today from @davidparis ("Paris from on line”) about an iOS app called "Welcome to Country", which is produced by Weerianna Street Media (@WeeriannaStreetMedia).  The app is still in its early days, but it seems a great idea and perhaps there’s scope for OSM Australia and WSM to collaborate on mapping indigenous communities and languages?  David Dean, perhaps WSM would be a good place to start to get further information?  Another source of information about indigenous languages in Australia is SILA (www.sila.org.au).

There isn’t (yet?) an Android version of the app, and when I went to the App Store on my iPad searching for "Welcome to Country” there wasn’t a result, but the link to the iTunes Store in the @davidparis post does work (although perhaps it’s out of date, because the latest changes to iOS mean you can’t manage iOS apps from iTunes).

Regards,

Reg Tydell


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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names (Andrew Harvey)
  2. Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names (David Dean)
  3. Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names (David Dean)
  4. Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names (Warin)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 09:44:39 +1100
From: Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]>
To: OSM Australian Talk List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping Indigenous Place Names
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On 26 January 2018 at 23:33, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be used.
>

Indeed Tasmania uses a lot of name:xtz eg.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/123026960 and
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/vql, Uluru uses name:pjt, hopefully there are a
lot more. I think name:aus should only really be used if you don't know
which more specific ISO code to use.

On 27 January 2018 at 07:53, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Should the English language ones be recorded as name:eng=Ayers Rock ?
>
I think they may be entered as alt_name, possibly they also should be
> recorded as name:eng too (a duplication).
>

name:eng and name:en are the same thing according to
https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes_name.php?code_ID=130

The English name of Uluru is Uluru not Ayers Rock. I'd be in favour of
moving Ayers Rock to the old name. official_name could still be "Uluru /
Ayers Rock" as that's what's it's officially designated as.

I'd prefer we didn't use name=Uluru (Ayers Rocks) and instead just used
name=Uluru as it should be left up to data consumers how they want to
display alternate names, with Ayers Rock either as old_name or alt_name.
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 04:03:38 +0000
From: David Dean <[hidden email]>
To: OSM Australian Talk List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping Indigenous Place Names
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the great responses. I'm glad I kicked off this thread.

I don't think there is a problem with indicating a name:aus tag if the
local aboriginal name for an area/feature is known, but you haven't done
further research to find the actual language code applicable.

However, it should be a goal to update all name:aus tags to move them to
the appropriate real tags based on the iso639-3 tags. I'm not sure at that
stage whether the name:aus tags would be useful to stay or not. Any ideas?

I am pushing this myself, as I want to build a rendering of OSM that is
focused on the local indigenous knowledge across the country, but I guess
this means I'm going to need to do a bit more work to find out the iso639-3
tags for all indigenous languages in Australia, and maybe even some idea of
what tags are local to what areas.

This is clearly not going to be trivial, but what that's worth doing is? :)

- David

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 08:45 Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 26 January 2018 at 23:33, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be
>> used.
>>
>
> Indeed Tasmania uses a lot of name:xtz eg.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/123026960 and
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/vql, Uluru uses name:pjt, hopefully there are
> a lot more. I think name:aus should only really be used if you don't know
> which more specific ISO code to use.
>
> On 27 January 2018 at 07:53, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Should the English language ones be recorded as name:eng=Ayers Rock ?
>>
> I think they may be entered as alt_name, possibly they also should be
>> recorded as name:eng too (a duplication).
>>
>
> name:eng and name:en are the same thing according to
> https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes_name.php?code_ID=130
>
> The English name of Uluru is Uluru not Ayers Rock. I'd be in favour of
> moving Ayers Rock to the old name. official_name could still be "Uluru /
> Ayers Rock" as that's what's it's officially designated as.
>
> I'd prefer we didn't use name=Uluru (Ayers Rocks) and instead just used
> name=Uluru as it should be left up to data consumers how they want to
> display alternate names, with Ayers Rock either as old_name or alt_name.
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 04:08:05 +0000
From: David Dean <[hidden email]>
To: OSM Australian Talk List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping Indigenous Place Names
Message-ID:
        <CAGNy6GUaDeZsTp0npvYi2FwfWYYNJCWNU2h=DC7o=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Oh,

And one more thing: At its best OpenStreetMap is about local mappers
mapping what is of interest to them, so we should be attempting to engage
with out local indigenous community and asking them what their local
language is and what features in OSM (or that we can add to OSM) are
important to them.

Some of this might stretch the 'verifiable on the ground' rule a little,
but I think if there is significant local knowledge, it is fair game for
the map.

- David

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 14:03 David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> Thanks for the great responses. I'm glad I kicked off this thread.
>
> I don't think there is a problem with indicating a name:aus tag if the
> local aboriginal name for an area/feature is known, but you haven't done
> further research to find the actual language code applicable.
>
> However, it should be a goal to update all name:aus tags to move them to
> the appropriate real tags based on the iso639-3 tags. I'm not sure at that
> stage whether the name:aus tags would be useful to stay or not. Any ideas?
>
> I am pushing this myself, as I want to build a rendering of OSM that is
> focused on the local indigenous knowledge across the country, but I guess
> this means I'm going to need to do a bit more work to find out the iso639-3
> tags for all indigenous languages in Australia, and maybe even some idea of
> what tags are local to what areas.
>
> This is clearly not going to be trivial, but what that's worth doing is? :)
>
> - David
>
> On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 08:45 Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 26 January 2018 at 23:33, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be
>>> used.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed Tasmania uses a lot of name:xtz eg.
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/123026960 and
>> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/vql, Uluru uses name:pjt, hopefully there
>> are a lot more. I think name:aus should only really be used if you don't
>> know which more specific ISO code to use.
>>
>> On 27 January 2018 at 07:53, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Should the English language ones be recorded as name:eng=Ayers Rock ?
>>>
>> I think they may be entered as alt_name, possibly they also should be
>>> recorded as name:eng too (a duplication).
>>>
>>
>> name:eng and name:en are the same thing according to
>> https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes_name.php?code_ID=130
>>
>> The English name of Uluru is Uluru not Ayers Rock. I'd be in favour of
>> moving Ayers Rock to the old name. official_name could still be "Uluru /
>> Ayers Rock" as that's what's it's officially designated as.
>>
>> I'd prefer we didn't use name=Uluru (Ayers Rocks) and instead just used
>> name=Uluru as it should be left up to data consumers how they want to
>> display alternate names, with Ayers Rock either as old_name or alt_name.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 16:08:56 +1100
From: Warin <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping Indigenous Place Names
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

There can be problems with internet connectivity for remote communities
.. so getting participation can be difficult.
A local dump of data that can then be used on a server by others can be
very beneficial - reduces the remote network load and speeds the locals
response times.

Part of  'verifiable on the round' is asking a local.. if it is a local
doing the mapping then they are most of the way there.

The  OSMwiki for local languages ..is
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names


On 27-Jan-18 03:08 PM, David Dean wrote:

> Oh,
>
> And one more thing: At its best OpenStreetMap is about local mappers
> mapping what is of interest to them, so we should be attempting to
> engage with out local indigenous community and asking them what their
> local language is and what features in OSM (or that we can add to OSM)
> are important to them.
>
> Some of this might stretch the 'verifiable on the ground' rule a
> little, but I think if there is significant local knowledge, it is
> fair game for the map.
>
> - David
>
> On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 14:03 David Dean <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>    Hey everyone,
>
>    Thanks for the great responses. I'm glad I kicked off this thread.
>
>    I don't think there is a problem with indicating a name:aus tag if
>    the local aboriginal name for an area/feature is known, but you
>    haven't done further research to find the actual language code
>    applicable.
>
>    However, it should be a goal to update all name:aus tags to move
>    them to the appropriate real tags based on the iso639-3 tags. I'm
>    not sure at that stage whether the name:aus tags would be useful
>    to stay or not. Any ideas?
>
>    I am pushing this myself, as I want to build a rendering of OSM
>    that is focused on the local indigenous knowledge across the
>    country, but I guess this means I'm going to need to do a bit more
>    work to find out the iso639-3 tags for all indigenous languages in
>    Australia, and maybe even some idea of what tags are local to what
>    areas.
>
>    This is clearly not going to be trivial, but what that's worth
>    doing is? :)
>
>    - David
>
>    On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 08:45 Andrew Harvey
>    <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>        On 26 January 2018 at 23:33, David Dean <[hidden email]
>        <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>            Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known,
>            it should be used.
>
>
>        Indeed Tasmania uses a lot of name:xtz eg.
>        http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/123026960 and
>        https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/vql, Uluru uses name:pjt,
>        hopefully there are a lot more. I think name:aus should only
>        really be used if you don't know which more specific ISO code
>        to use.
>
>        On 27 January 2018 at 07:53, Warin <[hidden email]
>        <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>            Should the English language ones be recorded as
>            name:eng=Ayers Rock ?
>
>            I think they may be entered as alt_name, possibly they
>            also should be recorded as name:eng too (a duplication).
>
>
>        name:eng and name:en are the same thing according to
>        https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes_name.php?code_ID=130
>
>        The English name of Uluru is Uluru not Ayers Rock. I'd be in
>        favour of moving Ayers Rock to the old name. official_name
>        could still be "Uluru / Ayers Rock" as that's what's it's
>        officially designated as.
>
>        I'd prefer we didn't use name=Uluru (Ayers Rocks) and instead
>        just used name=Uluru as it should be left up to data consumers
>        how they want to display alternate names, with Ayers Rock
>        either as old_name or alt_name.
>        _______________________________________________
>        Talk-au mailing list
>        [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>        https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>    --
>    http://dbdean.com
>
> --
> http://dbdean.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au


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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

Phil Wyatt
In reply to this post by Warin
Search for Portable OSM. It’s an offline version of OSM that can be synced up later. Developed by American Red Cross for humanitarian and disaster relief work


Cheers - Phil, 
On the road with his iPad 

On 27 Jan 2018, at 4:08 pm, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

There can be problems with internet connectivity for remote communities .. so getting participation can be difficult.
A local dump of data that can then be used on a server by others can be very beneficial - reduces the remote network load and speeds the locals response times.

Part of  'verifiable on the round' is asking a local.. if it is a local doing the mapping then they are most of the way there.

The  OSMwiki for local languages ..is https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names


On 27-Jan-18 03:08 PM, David Dean wrote:
Oh,

And one more thing: At its best OpenStreetMap is about local mappers mapping what is of interest to them, so we should be attempting to engage with out local indigenous community and asking them what their local language is and what features in OSM (or that we can add to OSM) are important to them.

Some of this might stretch the 'verifiable on the ground' rule a little, but I think if there is significant local knowledge, it is fair game for the map.

- David

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 14:03 David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey everyone,

Thanks for the great responses. I'm glad I kicked off this thread.

I don't think there is a problem with indicating a name:aus tag if the local aboriginal name for an area/feature is known, but you haven't done further research to find the actual language code applicable.

However, it should be a goal to update all name:aus tags to move them to the appropriate real tags based on the iso639-3 tags. I'm not sure at that stage whether the name:aus tags would be useful to stay or not. Any ideas?

I am pushing this myself, as I want to build a rendering of OSM that is focused on the local indigenous knowledge across the country, but I guess this means I'm going to need to do a bit more work to find out the iso639-3 tags for all indigenous languages in Australia, and maybe even some idea of what tags are local to what areas.

This is clearly not going to be trivial, but what that's worth doing is? :)

- David

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 at 08:45 Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 26 January 2018 at 23:33, David Dean <[hidden email]> wrote:
Absolutely. If the more specific language code is known, it should be used.

Indeed Tasmania uses a lot of name:xtz eg. http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/123026960 and https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/vql, Uluru uses name:pjt, hopefully there are a lot more. I think name:aus should only really be used if you don't know which more specific ISO code to use.

On 27 January 2018 at 07:53, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Should the English language ones be recorded as name:eng=Ayers Rock ?
I think they may be entered as alt_name, possibly they also should be recorded as name:eng too (a duplication). 

name:eng and name:en are the same thing according to https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes_name.php?code_ID=130

The English name of Uluru is Uluru not Ayers Rock. I'd be in favour of moving Ayers Rock to the old name. official_name could still be "Uluru / Ayers Rock" as that's what's it's officially designated as.

I'd prefer we didn't use name=Uluru (Ayers Rocks) and instead just used name=Uluru as it should be left up to data consumers how they want to display alternate names, with Ayers Rock either as old_name or alt_name.
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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

ebel
In reply to this post by David Dean
You can use Ethnologue to check out the languages in Australia and what
the language code to use.

https://www.ethnologue.com/country/AU/languages

They also have maps:

https://www.ethnologue.com/sites/default/files/styles/original/public/maps/20/AU___rgb.png
https://www.ethnologue.com/sites/default/files/styles/original/public/maps/20/AU_n_rgb.png

On 26/01/18 13:09, David Dean wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I've done a little research, and added the following section to the
> Australian Tagging Guidelines at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Places, and
> the Multilingual names page at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names:
>
> Please use the name:aus (aus is the general ISO639-2 code for Australian
> Aboriginal Languages) to indicate the indigenous names of places. It
> would be useful to do this even when the generally used name is
> indigenous, to allow for a potential indigenous rendering of our maps.
>
> I hope we can all agree that this is an excellent idea, and starting
> adding these everywhere we can. Here's my first go:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55769062.
>
> So far we currently have about 4 name:aus tags in the whole country (see
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/voW). We can do better that that!
>
> - David
>
> --
> http://dbdean.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>



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Re: Mapping Indigenous Place Names

Warin
On 05-Feb-18 11:11 PM, Rory McCann wrote:
You can use Ethnologue to check out the languages in Australia and what the language code to use.

https://www.ethnologue.com/country/AU/languages

They also have maps:

https://www.ethnologue.com/sites/default/files/styles/original/public/maps/20/AU___rgb.png
https://www.ethnologue.com/sites/default/files/styles/original/public/maps/20/AU_n_rgb.png

Copyright? " This electronic version of Ethnologue: Languages of the World is intended for non-commercial scholarly research and educational use."
https://www.ethnologue.com/terms-use


On 26/01/18 13:09, David Dean wrote:
Hi everyone,

I've done a little research, and added the following section to the Australian Tagging Guidelines at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Places, and the Multilingual names page at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names:

Please use the name:aus (aus is the general ISO639-2 code for Australian Aboriginal Languages) to indicate the indigenous names of places. It would be useful to do this even when the generally used name is indigenous, to allow for a potential indigenous rendering of our maps.

I hope we can all agree that this is an excellent idea, and starting adding these everywhere we can. Here's my first go: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55769062.

So far we currently have about 4 name:aus tags in the whole country (see https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/voW). We can do better that that!

- David

-- 
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