Mapping 'private roads'

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Mapping 'private roads'

Warin
Hi,

    
I am in 2 minds about this ... these roads exist so they can be seen. 

    
They might be usefull navigational features;
firstly to plot progress along a public road - you have just past this private road so you must he here on the map.
secondly for any emergency services - mainly thinking of fire, particularly of non local fireies.

    
Some object as mapping them may encourage inappropriate use.. "its on my map, so I can use it" is one of the responses. Sigh. 
Adding access=private works for some renders and not others. 
-------------------------
I do like to see the map with all these tracks, even private ones. 

    
On the other hand I don't want people seeing a line on the map and thinking they can use it... 

    
===================
A middle ground? Show the start of the track and no more??? 

    
--------------------------- From the Aust. Tagging Guidelines
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging
How I would tag farm tracks..

"highway=track Gravel fire trails, forest drives, 4WD trails and similar roads. "

    
Then goes on to 
"highway=service Unnamed access roads. e.g.
Entrance ways and roads in parks, government properties, beach access
etc. Use a short service road where you may want to mark the entrance
to a private/government area, but not map the interior private roads
in detail."

    
The problem here is that some raise the "not map the interior
private roads in detail" as not mapping them at all. 

    






    

    

    

    

  


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Re: Mapping 'private roads'

Sebastian S.
I map them with access private because I can see them on aerial images and on the ground. If the path is e.g. behind a high hedge I will limit to the visible part or what I can see on aerial images.
I think mapping these roads adds value for everyone who is trying to get to the particular address.
Thinking of a delivery vehicle I am even considering if access=permissive would be appropriate.

In the end it is not the map that is trespassing but the individual on location that is.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 5 October 2019 9:44:47 am AEST, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

    
I am in 2 minds about this ... these roads exist so they can be seen. 

    
They might be usefull navigational features;
firstly to plot progress along a public road - you have just past this private road so you must he here on the map.
secondly for any emergency services - mainly thinking of fire, particularly of non local fireies.

    
Some object as mapping them may encourage inappropriate use.. "its on my map, so I can use it" is one of the responses. Sigh. 
Adding access=private works for some renders and not others. 
-------------------------
I do like to see the map with all these tracks, even private ones. 

    
On the other hand I don't want people seeing a line on the map and thinking they can use it... 

    
===================
A middle ground? Show the start of the track and no more??? 

    
--------------------------- From the Aust. Tagging Guidelines
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging
How I would tag farm tracks..

"highway=track Gravel fire trails, forest drives, 4WD trails and similar roads. "

    
Then goes on to 
"highway=service Unnamed access roads. e.g.
Entrance ways and roads in parks, government properties, beach access
etc. Use a short service road where you may want to mark the entrance
to a private/government area, but not map the interior private roads
in detail."

    
The problem here is that some raise the "not map the interior
private roads in detail" as not mapping them at all. 

    






    

    

    

    

  


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Re: Mapping 'private roads'

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by Warin
As you mention I can see these being useful for emergency services or anyone who has been granted access to private roads/tracks.

If you're mapping based on what you can see from the aerial imagery, then I see no issue with mapping these as access=private.

On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 at 09:46, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

    
I am in 2 minds about this ... these roads exist so they can be seen. 

    
They might be usefull navigational features;
firstly to plot progress along a public road - you have just past this private road so you must he here on the map.
secondly for any emergency services - mainly thinking of fire, particularly of non local fireies.

    
Some object as mapping them may encourage inappropriate use.. "its on my map, so I can use it" is one of the responses. Sigh. 
Adding access=private works for some renders and not others. 
-------------------------
I do like to see the map with all these tracks, even private ones. 

    
On the other hand I don't want people seeing a line on the map and thinking they can use it... 

    
===================
A middle ground? Show the start of the track and no more??? 

    
--------------------------- From the Aust. Tagging Guidelines
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging
How I would tag farm tracks..

"highway=track Gravel fire trails, forest drives, 4WD trails and similar roads. "

    
Then goes on to 
"highway=service Unnamed access roads. e.g.
Entrance ways and roads in parks, government properties, beach access
etc. Use a short service road where you may want to mark the entrance
to a private/government area, but not map the interior private roads
in detail."

    
The problem here is that some raise the "not map the interior
private roads in detail" as not mapping them at all. 

    


    

    

    

    

    

  
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Re: Mapping 'private roads'

forster
Maybe add the tag norender=yes when the owner or responsible body  
requests that a feature not be rendered. This might apply to private  
property, illegal tracks on public land , military bases and more. It  
would be up to individual map renderers whether they would respect the  
norender request. They might respect the tag differently for example  
in different countries.

I would not render at openstreetmap.org (excluding for example country  
wide requests) but would render in the ID editor.

The downside of my suggestion is that it might be adding another layer  
of complexity for little real improvement.

Tony

> As you mention I can see these being useful for emergency services or
> anyone who has been granted access to private roads/tracks.
>
> If you're mapping based on what you can see from the aerial imagery, then I
> see no issue with mapping these as access=private.
>
> On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 at 09:46, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am in 2 minds about this ... these roads exist so they can be seen.
>>
>> They might be usefull navigational features;
>>
>> firstly to plot progress along a public road - you have just past  
>> this private road so you must he here on the map.
>>
>> secondly for any emergency services - mainly thinking of fire,  
>> particularly of non local fireies.
>>
>> Some object as mapping them may encourage inappropriate use.. "its  
>> on my map, so I can use it" is one of the responses. Sigh.
>>
>> Adding access=private works for some renders and not others.
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> I do like to see the map with all these tracks, even private ones.
>>
>> On the other hand I don't want people seeing a line on the map and  
>> thinking they can use it...
>>
>> ===================
>>
>> A middle ground? Show the start of the track and no more???
>>
>> --------------------------- From the Aust. Tagging Guidelines
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging
>>
>> How I would tag farm tracks..
>> "highway=track Gravel fire trails, forest drives, 4WD trails and  
>> similar roads. "
>>
>> Then goes on to
>>
>> "highway=service Unnamed access roads. e.g.
>> Entrance ways and roads in parks, government properties, beach access
>> etc. Use a short service road where you may want to mark the entrance
>> to a private/government area, but not map the interior private roads
>> in detail."
>>
>> The problem here is that some raise the "not map the interior
>> private roads in detail" as not mapping them at all.
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
>





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Re: Mapping 'private roads'

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Sebastian S.
5 Oct 2019, 02:43 by [hidden email]:
Thinking of a delivery vehicle I am even considering if access=permissive would be appropriate.
access=permissive is used in cases where everyone
may enter, but owner may revoke access at any time



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Re: Mapping 'private roads'

Nemanja Bračko
Even I'm not from AU, I would recommend adding private roads, especially because we had a flood situation couple of years ago. In that time we were mapping buildings (for rescue teams) and all kind of trails or roads just to help people to escape flooded area. We didn't pay attention if it is private or not. I haven't got any feedback if these roads were helpful to anyone, but I know that buildings helped rescue teams to split and to organise themselves much better and much easier.

There are appropriate tags for private roads/gates/etc. so it can be easily added. The only thing is that maybe I'm personally not aware which road is private (let's say imagery is not so good so I'm unable to spot entry gate), but anyway, somebody will come and add appropriate tag. It will last 20 seconds instead of 10 minutes to add the road.

Thanks,
Nemanja

On Sat, 5 Oct 2019, 09:12 Mateusz Konieczny, <[hidden email]> wrote:
5 Oct 2019, 02:43 by [hidden email]:
Thinking of a delivery vehicle I am even considering if access=permissive would be appropriate.
access=permissive is used in cases where everyone
may enter, but owner may revoke access at any time


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Re: Mapping 'private roads'

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Warin



5 Oct 2019, 01:44 by [hidden email]:
The problem here is that some raise the "not map the interior
private roads in detail" as not mapping them at all
Are they not mapping them or also 
(incorrectly) deleting what others 
mapped?

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Re: Mapping 'private roads'

Warin
On 05/10/19 20:34, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:



5 Oct 2019, 01:44 by [hidden email]:
The problem here is that some raise the "not map the interior
private roads in detail" as not mapping them at all
Are they not mapping them or also 
(incorrectly) deleting what others 
mapped?

I am aware of 2 cases of deletion. In both cases at least some of the information has been re-added, possibly with access tagging too.
I have not looked into it too deeply. Not too interested in the past practices or attitudes, but what principle should we adopt?

I am seeking thoughts on the mapping these roads/tracks within OSM... should we map them and if so how detailed?

As I see it the options are;

* Do not map.
* Map the entry only.
* Map it all.

Add an access tag if thought appropriate, possibly err on the side of restriction (tag access=private) rather than public (no access tag)?

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Re: Mapping 'private roads'

Mateusz Konieczny-3



5 Oct 2019, 12:53 by [hidden email]:
As I see it the options are;

* Do not map.
* Map the entry only.
* Map it all.
There are some objects where not mapping
them and removal of mapped objects is justifiable[1].

Maybe even hiding old entries in history.

It is not one of them.

[1] unsigned shelters for victims of domestic violence, 
nests of rare birds, places of worship of
religions that are prosecuted etc

Or undiscussed imports or data on s wrong licence.

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Re: Mapping 'private roads'

David Wales
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
So long as access and gates are correctly tagged, I can't see a reason not to map private roads.

On 5 October 2019 8:34:59 pm AEST, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:



5 Oct 2019, 01:44 by [hidden email]:
The problem here is that some raise the "not map the interior
private roads in detail" as not mapping them at all
Are they not mapping them or also 
(incorrectly) deleting what others 
mapped?

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Re: Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

Warin
Ok.. I think the following can be done on the Australian Tagging Guidelines;


Remove the words "not map the interior private roads in detail" from
service roads
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Urban_Areas


Add a new section "Private Roads" under 'Road Tagging' as the last entry.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging

With words something like?

"Private roads can be mapped, this provides information for;
the person going past, that the road is private and their location on
the map
emergency services who may find the road of benefit
the private individual who can use the road

Such private roads should have the tag 'access=private', if you are not
certain then it is best to err on the cautious side and add the
'access=private'."



Any objections, corrections, better words .. ???


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Re: Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

Ben Kelley-4
Looks good I think.


  - Ben.

On 9/10/19 11:55, Warin wrote:

> Ok.. I think the following can be done on the Australian Tagging
> Guidelines;
>
>
> Remove the words "not map the interior private roads in detail" from
> service roads
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Urban_Areas 
>
>
>
> Add a new section "Private Roads" under 'Road Tagging' as the last entry.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging 
>
>
> With words something like?
>
> "Private roads can be mapped, this provides information for;
> the person going past, that the road is private and their location on
> the map
> emergency services who may find the road of benefit
> the private individual who can use the road
>
> Such private roads should have the tag 'access=private', if you are
> not certain then it is best to err on the cautious side and add the
> 'access=private'."
>
>
>
> Any objections, corrections, better words .. ???


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Re: Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

Andrew Davidson-3
In reply to this post by Warin
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 11:56 AM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Any objections, corrections, better words .. ???


No, looks good. 

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Re: Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

Warin
In reply to this post by Ben Kelley-4
Yer... I'll sleep on it.
Probably think of something better tomorrow!

Leave it for a couple of weeks and see.

On 09/10/19 13:10, Ben Kelley wrote:

> Looks good I think.
>
>
>  - Ben.
>
> On 9/10/19 11:55, Warin wrote:
>> Ok.. I think the following can be done on the Australian Tagging
>> Guidelines;
>>
>>
>> Remove the words "not map the interior private roads in detail" from
>> service roads
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Urban_Areas 
>>
>>
>>
>> Add a new section "Private Roads" under 'Road Tagging' as the last
>> entry.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging 
>>
>>
>> With words something like?
>>
>> "Private roads can be mapped, this provides information for;
>> the person going past, that the road is private and their location on
>> the map
>> emergency services who may find the road of benefit
>> the private individual who can use the road
>>
>> Such private roads should have the tag 'access=private', if you are
>> not certain then it is best to err on the cautious side and add the
>> 'access=private'."
>>
>>
>>
>> Any objections, corrections, better words .. ???
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

cleary
In reply to this post by Warin
Supported. Well done.




On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, at 11:55 AM, Warin wrote:

> Ok.. I think the following can be done on the Australian Tagging Guidelines;
>
>
> Remove the words "not map the interior private roads in detail" from
> service roads
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Urban_Areas
>
>
> Add a new section "Private Roads" under 'Road Tagging' as the last entry.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging
>
> With words something like?
>
> "Private roads can be mapped, this provides information for;
> the person going past, that the road is private and their location on
> the map
> emergency services who may find the road of benefit
> the private individual who can use the road
>
> Such private roads should have the tag 'access=private', if you are not
> certain then it is best to err on the cautious side and add the
> 'access=private'."
>
>
>
> Any objections, corrections, better words .. ???
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>

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Re: Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

Ewen Hill
+1 and well done.  

On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 14:27, cleary <[hidden email]> wrote:
Supported. Well done.




On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, at 11:55 AM, Warin wrote:
> Ok.. I think the following can be done on the Australian Tagging Guidelines;
>
>
> Remove the words "not map the interior private roads in detail" from
> service roads
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Urban_Areas
>
>
> Add a new section "Private Roads" under 'Road Tagging' as the last entry.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging
>
> With words something like?
>
> "Private roads can be mapped, this provides information for;
> the person going past, that the road is private and their location on
> the map
> emergency services who may find the road of benefit
> the private individual who can use the road
>
> Such private roads should have the tag 'access=private', if you are not
> certain then it is best to err on the cautious side and add the
> 'access=private'."
>
>
>
> Any objections, corrections, better words .. ???
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>

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--
Warm Regards

Ewen Hill
Internet Development Australia

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Re: Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

Ian Steer
In reply to this post by Warin
Sounds OK

(I'll have to change my mapping practices)

Ian



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Re: Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Ewen Hill
2 thoughts.

Map the full road we can see on overhead imagery, or just up to the (usual) gate?

& access=private, or =destination?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

Sebastian S.
I like the suggestion to add destination. This is sensible for three driveways leaving from the same road to different houses.

I think the wording suggestions are good.
Provide a link to this thread as reference.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 9 October 2019 3:19:11 pm AEDT, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
2 thoughts.

Map the full road we can see on overhead imagery, or just up to the (usual) gate?

& access=private, or =destination?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

Warin
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
On 09/10/19 15:19, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 2 thoughts.
>
> Map the full road we can see on overhead imagery, or just up to the
> (usual) gate?
>
> & access=private, or =destination?

I think if we go with the provision of information for emergency
services then we map all we can.

Destination if it leads somewhere (house), private if it goes to a
field/barn/etc???



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