Metropolitan France : what todo with all "supossed to be wrong" name:xx ?

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Metropolitan France : what todo with all "supossed to be wrong" name:xx ?

marc marc
Hello,

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1403916
once again, one contributor confused France and Metropolitan France (the
part of France located on the european continent as opposed to the
so-called "overseas" territories).
This time, the contributor also modified the set of names that was
correct (name ca de fr it nl oc) causing a malfunction of the tools
using it.
The incorrect modification has been reverted. but the question arises
as to what to do with the other names:xx :
- 19 name:xx contain 2 words and therefore seem correct.
- ~222 name:xx have no space
-- those using the latin script are therefore probably false since the
presence of a single word is probably enough to detect the error.
is it better to delete them ? or some languages may have only one word
for "Metropolitan France" ?
or delete only if if the same value for France ?
but some translations (e. g. into Esperanto) have in the meantime been
modified on a single object, it is impossible for me to say if the
difference is a typo or if it is due to "metropolitan".
-- I'm unable to detect an error in the name:xx in Cyrillic script,
Arabic alphabet, Gojūon, .. can anyone ?

the problem being that many contributors make blind translations,
without looking at the object, thus duplicate an error from one language
to another.
Keeping names:xx that we assume are false risk so in the end
to be worse than losing a correct name:xx
But it is not the logic of osm to delete/do it again when there is too
great a risk of error

thanks,
Marc
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Re: Metropolitan France : what todo with all "supossed to be wrong" name:xx ?

Andy Townsend
On 19/11/2019 16:03, marc marc wrote:
> ... but the question arises
> as to what to do with the other names:xx :

If you've got the time and the inclination, you could go through the
history of the relation and comment in a changeset of everyone who's
added a translation that might be wrong explaining the problem.  It'd be
nice to also include a translation of the problem in their own language
(using e.g. Google Translate).

Obviously no-one's forcing you to do this - everything that everyone
does in OSM is voluntary, but if you're concerned enough to write to a
mailing list you're probably more motivated than most people to explain
the problem to people!

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: Metropolitan France : what todo with all "supossed to be wrong" name:xx ?

Jóhannes Birgir Jensson
In reply to this post by marc marc
Not all languages make, or care about making, a distinction of France (including non-Europe) and France (only Europe).

This is an administrative detail which has no relevance for most of us, even if we are frequent visitors in France and love it (me!).

Thus our languages do not differentiate between the two.

Icelandic for example does not care about the distinction so far, although Meginlandsfrakkland (one word) or Meginlands-Frakkland could be possible candidates if we'd need to.

In the left sidebar on Wikipedia you can see which languages do have this concept covered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_France


--
Jói / Stalfur


19. nóvember 2019 kl. 15:11, skrifaði "marc marc" <[hidden email]>:

> Hello,
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1403916
> once again, one contributor confused France and Metropolitan France (the
> part of France located on the european continent as opposed to the
> so-called "overseas" territories).
> This time, the contributor also modified the set of names that was
> correct (name ca de fr it nl oc) causing a malfunction of the tools
> using it.
> The incorrect modification has been reverted. but the question arises
> as to what to do with the other names:xx :
> - 19 name:xx contain 2 words and therefore seem correct.
> - ~222 name:xx have no space
> -- those using the latin script are therefore probably false since the
> presence of a single word is probably enough to detect the error.
> is it better to delete them ? or some languages may have only one word
> for "Metropolitan France" ?
> or delete only if if the same value for France ?
> but some translations (e. g. into Esperanto) have in the meantime been
> modified on a single object, it is impossible for me to say if the
> difference is a typo or if it is due to "metropolitan".
> -- I'm unable to detect an error in the name:xx in Cyrillic script,
> Arabic alphabet, Gojūon, .. can anyone ?
>
> the problem being that many contributors make blind translations,
> without looking at the object, thus duplicate an error from one language
> to another.
> Keeping names:xx that we assume are false risk so in the end
> to be worse than losing a correct name:xx
> But it is not the logic of osm to delete/do it again when there is too
> great a risk of error
>
> thanks,
> Marc
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: Metropolitan France : what todo with all "supossed to be wrong" name:xx ?

General Discussion mailing list

On 2019-11-19 16:40, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:

Not all languages make, or care about making, a distinction of France (including non-Europe) and France (only Europe).

This is not a question of language. They are different concepts, and irrespective of the language you are speaking, it must be possible to distinguish between the two. Of course it is possible that you need more than two words for one or the other, using more descriptive terminology instead of an accepted Proper Noun.
 
If a language doesn't have a term for "Metropolitan France" then there shouldn't be a name:xx in OSM.
 

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Re: Metropolitan France : what todo with all "supossed to be wrong" name:xx ?

sdoerr
In reply to this post by marc marc
On 19/11/2019 15:03, marc marc wrote:
> -- those using the latin script are therefore probably false since the
> presence of a single word is probably enough to detect the error.
> is it better to delete them ? or some languages may have only one word
> for "Metropolitan France" ?


Judging by https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q212429, the answer to the last
question is no.

--
Steve


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Re: Metropolitan France : what todo with all "supossed to be wrong" name:xx ?

marc marc
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
Hello,

Andy Townsend wrote :
 > you could go through the history of the relation and comment
 > in a changeset of everyone who's added a translation that might
 > be wrong explaining the problem.

yes, but parsing 587 versions to find 222 contributors (maybe
a little less, a mapper may add several name:xx) leaves me speechless.
especially since some of the contributors did not add the translation
on this object but on one of the other 2 "France" objects, and are
then copied like in the previous version.
which means looking at the versions of 3 objects, that's more version
to check.
to avoid going crazy, it would require to write a script to do the job,
including posting changeset comments and adding a link for translation
into the user's local language (if known)

Regards,
Marc
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Re: Metropolitan France : what todo with all "supossed to be wrong" name:xx ?

marc marc
In reply to this post by Jóhannes Birgir Jensson
Hello,

Just look at the 2 relation to understand that they are 2 different
things with a difference in thousands of kilometers
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2202162
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1403916

I don't know which country you live in, but the administrative details
of your country may be unknown to me.
and there are probably many administrative entities in your country that
do not have a name in french. However, it would not occur to me to copy
the name of the country on it with the only logic that they have 6
identical letters out of 21 in your local language.

Regards,
Marc

Le 19.11.19 à 16:40, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson a écrit :

> Not all languages make, or care about making, a distinction of France (including non-Europe) and France (only Europe).
>
> This is an administrative detail which has no relevance for most of us, even if we are frequent visitors in France and love it (me!).
>
> Thus our languages do not differentiate between the two.
>
> Icelandic for example does not care about the distinction so far, although Meginlandsfrakkland (one word) or Meginlands-Frakkland could be possible candidates if we'd need to.
>
> In the left sidebar on Wikipedia you can see which languages do have this concept covered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_France
>
>
> --
> Jói / Stalfur
>
>
> 19. nóvember 2019 kl. 15:11, skrifaði "marc marc" <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1403916
>> once again, one contributor confused France and Metropolitan France (the
>> part of France located on the european continent as opposed to the
>> so-called "overseas" territories).
>> This time, the contributor also modified the set of names that was
>> correct (name ca de fr it nl oc) causing a malfunction of the tools
>> using it.
>> The incorrect modification has been reverted. but the question arises
>> as to what to do with the other names:xx :
>> - 19 name:xx contain 2 words and therefore seem correct.
>> - ~222 name:xx have no space
>> -- those using the latin script are therefore probably false since the
>> presence of a single word is probably enough to detect the error.
>> is it better to delete them ? or some languages may have only one word
>> for "Metropolitan France" ?
>> or delete only if if the same value for France ?
>> but some translations (e. g. into Esperanto) have in the meantime been
>> modified on a single object, it is impossible for me to say if the
>> difference is a typo or if it is due to "metropolitan".
>> -- I'm unable to detect an error in the name:xx in Cyrillic script,
>> Arabic alphabet, Gojūon, .. can anyone ?
>>
>> the problem being that many contributors make blind translations,
>> without looking at the object, thus duplicate an error from one language
>> to another.
>> Keeping names:xx that we assume are false risk so in the end
>> to be worse than losing a correct name:xx
>> But it is not the logic of osm to delete/do it again when there is too
>> great a risk of error
>>
>> thanks,
>> Marc
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: Metropolitan France : what todo with all "supossed to be wrong" name:xx ?

marc marc
In reply to this post by sdoerr
 > Judging by https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q212429,
 > the answer to the last question is no.

Thanks.
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Re: Metropolitan France : what todo with all "supossed to be wrong" name:xx ?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list


sent from a phone

> On 19. Nov 2019, at 17:11, Colin Smale via talk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If a language doesn't have a term for "Metropolitan France" then there shouldn't be a name:xx in OSM.
>  


If a language doesn’t have a term for Metropolitan France it is likely they have more than one term for it ;-)

Cheers Martin
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