Micronations

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Micronations

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Does OSM recognise, & allow the mapping of, micronations as defined areas? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation

Was looking for something completely different :-) & just found this
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183 showing the "nation" of Pitchfork Union https://micronations.wiki/wiki/Pitchfork_Union, complete with it's Government Headquarters, Town Hall, military training areas, network of roads, toll booths on the public roads giving access to the area, 6m tall city wall & so on, none of which is visible in any overhead or street level imagery I can find.

Everything has been created by one user over the last couple of months.

Before contacting them to confirm that any of this stuff actually exists, I thought I'd check to see if what they've done is allowed, or if it counts as vandalism?

Is there another way of handling this?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Micronations

Mark Wagner
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:54:16 +1000
Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Does OSM recognise, & allow the mapping of, micronations as defined
> areas? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation
>
> Was looking for something completely different :-) & just found this
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183
> showing the "nation" of Pitchfork Union
> https://micronations.wiki/wiki/Pitchfork_Union, complete with it's
> Government Headquarters, Town Hall, military training areas, network
> of roads, toll booths on the public roads giving access to the area,
> 6m tall city wall & so on, none of which is visible in any overhead
> or street level imagery I can find.
>
> Everything has been created by one user over the last couple of
> months.
>
> Before contacting them to confirm that any of this stuff actually
> exists, I thought I'd check to see if what they've done is allowed,
> or if it counts as vandalism?
>
> Is there another way of handling this?

My usual approach to micronations and fictional countries is to delete
them, warn the user about mapping things that don't exist (yes, it's a
form of vandalism), and point them at https://opengeofiction.net/

--
Mark

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Re: Micronations

Warin
On 09/02/19 16:18, Mark Wagner wrote:

> On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:54:16 +1000
> Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Does OSM recognise, & allow the mapping of, micronations as defined
>> areas? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation
>>
>> Was looking for something completely different :-) & just found this
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183
>> showing the "nation" of Pitchfork Union
>> https://micronations.wiki/wiki/Pitchfork_Union, complete with it's
>> Government Headquarters, Town Hall, military training areas, network
>> of roads, toll booths on the public roads giving access to the area,
>> 6m tall city wall & so on, none of which is visible in any overhead
>> or street level imagery I can find.
>>
>> Everything has been created by one user over the last couple of
>> months.
>>
>> Before contacting them to confirm that any of this stuff actually
>> exists, I thought I'd check to see if what they've done is allowed,
>> or if it counts as vandalism?
>>
>> Is there another way of handling this?
> My usual approach to micronations and fictional countries is to delete
> them, warn the user about mapping things that don't exist (yes, it's a
> form of vandalism), and point them at https://opengeofiction.net/
>

In this case they have been mapped as a 'residential area' with that name ...
The basic question is ... is that area residential?
  If so it could be named that locally.
Certainly contact them to check the residential status. I'd leave the name out of it. Just the truth about the areas use.




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Re: Micronations

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Mark Wagner


sent from a phone

> On 9. Feb 2019, at 06:18, Mark Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My usual approach to micronations and fictional countries is to delete
> them, warn the user about mapping things that don't exist (yes, it's a
> form of vandalism), and point them at https://opengeofiction.net/


micronations do exist, you might not recognize them as countries or generally sovereign entities, but „something“ is there that can be mapped.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Micronations

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Warin
On Sat, Feb 09, 2019 at 06:20:11PM +1100, Warin wrote:
> On 09/02/19 16:18, Mark Wagner wrote:
> > On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:54:16 +1000
> > Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183
>
> In this case they have been mapped as a 'residential area' with that name ...
> The basic question is ... is that area residential?

But note the user name: it does suggest vandalism.

ael


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Re: Micronations

SimonPoole
May I point out that this discussion is patently silly?

The user in question has already been blocked and at least their initial changesets were reverted 2 months ago. Naturally any remaining fictional edits should be reverted too and the user reported again to tho DWG.

Am 9. Februar 2019 18:28:35 MEZ schrieb ael via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
On Sat, Feb 09, 2019 at 06:20:11PM +1100, Warin wrote:
On 09/02/19 16:18, Mark Wagner wrote:
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:54:16 +1000
Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183
In this case they have been mapped as a 'residential area' with that name ...
The basic question is ... is that area residential?

But note the user name: it does suggest vandalism.

ael
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Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit Kaiten Mail gesendet.
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Re: Micronations

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list

The thing is quite obviously fruit of immagination, creativity, and/or delusion: there surely isn't out there such a concoction of toll booths (many of them), bunkers, town halls, dams, towers, campgrounds, etc.

The creator's name too, "landhahaha", is also an hint for a probable vandalism.

But, yes, "there is something out there": Google too report the existence of a "Pitchfork Union" POI [1] [2].  I really don't know what that could be. My bet is on some kind of elaborate prank, maybe even something funny, but again I'm ready to bet that those detailed micronation's features are not to be found on the ground.

And that concerns me a lot, because it is really hard not thinking what implications events like this can have on the reliable availability of OSM data/services.

Sergio


[1] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pitchfork+Union/@38.0057611,-87.6230528,17.47z/data=!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x8871d5133156772d:0xb52e4939112ac99d!2sEvansville,+IN,+USA!3b1!8m2!3d37.9715592!4d-87.5710898!3m4!1s0x8871d3a41e3edbcb:0x36d89880f9e4b0c6!8m2!3d38.0055153!4d-87.6223733?hl=en

[2] https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0053737,-87.6226287,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipNc0Cno_lNKO_O8oyna_8ihGVTkuy_RQoo1oceA!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNc0Cno_lNKO_O8oyna_8ihGVTkuy_RQoo1oceA%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi2.3155072-ya316.65625-ro1.7720242-fo100!7i5376!8i2688?hl=en


On 2019-02-09 18:28, ael via Tagging wrote:
On Sat, Feb 09, 2019 at 06:20:11PM +1100, Warin wrote:
On 09/02/19 16:18, Mark Wagner wrote:
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:54:16 +1000
Graeme Fitzpatrick [hidden email] wrote:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183
In this case they have been mapped as a 'residential area' with that name ...
The basic question is ... is that area residential?
But note the user name: it does suggest vandalism.

ael


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Re: Micronations

Paul Allen
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 19:48, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

But, yes, "there is something out there": Google too report the existence of a "Pitchfork Union" POI [1] [2].

Google is not immune from vandalism.  As this recent report by the BBC shows:
chip shop seems suspicious, it is apparently correct.

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Re: Micronations

Sergio Manzi

True, but I'm quite sure it is more difficult to fake Google Maps: some time ago I had to register an entry in Google Maps and I went through a quite secure mechanism that involved Google sending back to the registered address a postcard (yes, a piece of paper) with a confirmation code printed on it that I had to use to confirm the entry. I don't know if they still use that mechanism. If yes, it is admirable.

The BBC article too talks about a verification process. A SNAFU at the school's principal office?

Again, my uttermost concern is how to evitate to fall into a "fake maps" era, after the "fake news" one...

Sergio


On 2019-02-09 21:16, Paul Allen wrote:
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 19:48, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

But, yes, "there is something out there": Google too report the existence of a "Pitchfork Union" POI [1] [2].

Google is not immune from vandalism.  As this recent report by the BBC shows:
chip shop seems suspicious, it is apparently correct.

--
Paul


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Re: Micronations

OSMDoudou
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
People in search of mapping fictive worlds should consider OpenGeofiction: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=11/-20.1066/22.4554

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Re: Micronations

Richard Z.
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
On Sat, Feb 09, 2019 at 09:29:58PM +0100, Sergio Manzi wrote:
> True, but I'm quite sure it is more difficult to fake Google Maps: some time ago I had to register an entry in Google Maps and I went through a quite secure mechanism that involved Google sending back to the registered address a postcard (yes, a piece of paper) with a confirmation code printed on it that I had to use to confirm the entry. I don't know if they still use that mechanism. If yes, it is admirable.
>
> The BBC article too talks about a verification process. A SNAFU at the school's principal office?
>
> Again, my uttermost concern is how to evitate to fall into a "fake maps" era, after the "fake news" one...

if it is about something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberland there
should be methods to "map" this in OSM. Perhap Opencarto could have a special
fill pattern with lions/hic sunt leones?

Richard

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Re: Micronations

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by SimonPoole

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 at 05:42, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
The user in question has already been blocked and at least their initial changesets were reverted 2 months ago. Naturally any remaining fictional edits should be reverted too and the user reported again to tho DWG.

Thanks Simon

The whole thing is still there as of yesterday, so something either didn't work, or they're very persistent!

Message has been forwarded to DWG for action.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Micronations

Sergio Manzi

There is something really wrong going on around that bogus micronation: more than half of Harmony Way (from the crossing with Allens Lane to the one with Mont Vernon Avenue) has disappeared, leaving many other ways isolated (e.g. Rose Avenue and Walnut Hills Drive).

Beside, the f..ing thing is still visible at some Z values.

Is someone looking at this?

Cheers

Sergio


On 2019-02-10 01:39, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 at 05:42, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
The user in question has already been blocked and at least their initial changesets were reverted 2 months ago. Naturally any remaining fictional edits should be reverted too and the user reported again to tho DWG.

Thanks Simon

The whole thing is still there as of yesterday, so something either didn't work, or they're very persistent!

Message has been forwarded to DWG for action.

Thanks

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Re: Micronations

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
On 09/02/2019 19:47, Sergio Manzi wrote:

The thing is quite obviously fruit of immagination, creativity, and/or delusion: there surely isn't out there such a concoction of toll booths (many of them), bunkers, town halls, dams, towers, campgrounds, etc.


As Simon has already mentioned this user has been reported, reverted and blocked (and a number of sock-puppets have been reverted and blocked too).  I'm assuming it's just a kid and they'll get bored eventually.  It may take a while.


... but again I'm ready to bet that those detailed micronation's features are not to be found on the ground.


In a number of cases there _is_ something there, but what's there isn't by any stretch of the imagination a "country".  Sealand's probably the most famous example of this, but there are plenty of others , such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River .  Just map whatever's there such as a housename or a property name.

And that concerns me a lot, because it is really hard not thinking what implications events like this can have on the reliable availability of OSM data/services.

All data (not just OSM's) is "unreliable" for some value of unreliable.    OSM currently has two new-build houses down the street from me now that I suspect no other provider has, but other providers have plenty of information that OSM doesn't.  Also, every data consumer (of any data source) will always need to sanity check what they read in to make sure that it's sensible.  That sanity checking might be a little or a lot, depending on what you're doing with the data.  Just displaying a nice geographical background?  Probably not so much checking needed.  Displaying "countries of the world" and specifically targeting India or China?  You'll definitely need to adjust the data to match the "alternative facts" of your target market rather than actual physical reality  (and of course a map that works for one won't work for the other).

Best Regards,

Andy



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